2006 Dec. coues hunts

[KGAINES]

My fifth choice a few years ago is what got me started on coues deer, it was an oct. hunt down south and I had a blast simply because I was hunting and on top of that I was seeing places I hadn't seen before. The following year it was my first choice, an oct. four day hunt and it was my first choice, I was scouting my unit in june, I knew I was getting drawn and where, had a great time again. I would like it to stay that way, four day hunts in oct. down south create opportunity, if you wanted a tag all you had to do was choose one of those hunts. The northern units are different, mule deer, elk, coues deer, turkey, and whatever else I might not be thinking of right now are all hunted in the fall and that creates an added pressure on these units, and the dec. hunt stands alone for those lucky enough to get drawn, why take away. Why make the the oct. hunts ten days, the hunt success will go up and in a few years there will be no dec. rifle tags, for those lucky enough to get those dec. tags now, it creates a great hunting experience to hunt the coues deer in the rut, don't get me wrong I will still put in for oct. hunts and they can be great as well, but it won't be dec. I don't see where the system they have now is broke, and if it isn't broke don't fix it, if money is the reason behind it, then come out and say it and charge me more, I would except that a lot better than the the simple lie that they are trying to create more opportunity.

[25-06]

My fifth choice a few years ago is what got me started on coues deer, it was an oct. hunt down south and I had a blast simply because I was hunting and on top of that I was seeing places I hadn't seen before. The following year it was my first choice, an oct. four day hunt and it was my first choice, I was scouting my unit in june, I knew I was getting drawn and where, had a great time again. I would like it to stay that way, four day hunts in oct. down south create opportunity, if you wanted a tag all you had to do was choose one of those hunts. The northern units are different, mule deer, elk, coues deer, turkey, and whatever else I might not be thinking of right now are all hunted in the fall and that creates an added pressure on these units, and the dec. hunt stands alone for those lucky enough to get drawn, why take away. Why make the the oct. hunts ten days, the hunt success will go up and in a few years there will be no dec. rifle tags, for those lucky enough to get those dec. tags now, it creates a great hunting experience to hunt the coues deer in the rut, don't get me wrong I will still put in for oct. hunts and they can be great as well, but it won't be dec. I don't see where the system they have now is broke, and if it isn't broke don't fix it, if money is the reason behind it, then come out and say it and charge me more, I would except that a lot better than the the simple lie that they are trying to create more opportunity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said Keith

[migolito]

I don't see where the system they have now is broke, and if it isn't broke don't fix it, if money is the reason behind it, then come out and say it and charge me more, I would except that a lot better than the the simple lie that they are trying to create more opportunity.

 

 

And it begins!

 

M

[KGAINES]

migolito, let me ask you what your answers are, how do you fix our problems, since nobody in AZ is smart enough to figure out how to manage our wildlife, I would like to hear your suggestions, I mean you guys have done a great job in CA, I would like to know how to fix ours and while your at it why don't you just give us the answers as to how to fix the problems facing hunting across the entire country.

[dave]

I am a bowhunter, so I have no dog in this fight. I also can stand back and listen to all of you without any agenda. I was born in Tucson 50 years ago and hunted coues since I got bored hunting muley's at age 13. I have never hunted coues north of unit 33 and never even knew that the central part of the state did not have stratified hunts for coues.

I would like to express some ideas and see what you all think. When it is all over, I can change my handle to "deadman walking" It only takes a minute.

 

This is what I hear you folks saying:

 

1. We like what we have and we want to keep it that way.

2. This has worked for many years, why change it.

3. We want our kids and grandkids to experience the same thing.

 

Let me comment to each of your comments.

 

coueskiller: Well it looks like drawing a Dec. coues tag in central AZ. is going to be very tough for us from here on out. Our wonderful Game & Fish Dept. is proposing the following.... 6A(50tags),6b/8(50tags),21(50tags),22(50tags) and 23(50tags) now thats what I would call VERY LITTLE hunter oppertunity, it will now take years to draw one of these tags!!!! Looks like hunting coues deer in the rut in central AZ is now going to be as hard as hunting carp north of the big ditch, it will be a sad day when the Dept. approves these recomendations!!! Oh well I guess we could all draw one of the Oct. tags in the units mentioned above because there will be a toatl of 1745 permits issued for the Oct. hunts in units 6a,6b,8,21,22 & 23....................... What the heck are they thinking $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

If you are wanting a coues tag, the recommendation increases the tag numbers in those units by around 750 tags. Does that make it harder to draw a coues tag? Does that diminish hunter opportunity? If you are a true blue coues hunter, what units do you put in for second and third choice? Would those include any of the units in southern Arizona that have been stratified since I can remember? Hey, I don't blame you for feeling that way. That is why I started bowhunting a long time ago. I actually put in for the wrong unit a couple years ago by accident and drew one of the 25 December tags for whitetail in unit 34a. I took my bow and saw a few bucks, none of which I wanted. Sorry about that, I didn't plan to take anyone's tag.

 

bullwidgeon: They have a new way of thinking at the G&F, all these extra tags and jacked up extra hunts in units with noticiably smaller herds than down South on top of the dryest winter ever. The deer herd should be looking real good in '07..................NOT !

 

I agree.

 

TAM: WOW!!! I just got done looking at the proposed regs on the AZ G&F website and I can't believe they're still pushing the issue! So far the vast majority of some 6,500 people that have taken the deer survey are overwhelmingly against the proposal and yet the G&F keeps moving it forward. Not only the deer but as Brett mentioned now they've screwed up the bear hunts too. What's the reasoning behind all these changes? It surely cant be science! They say they want to increase hunter opportunity but the hunters are saying they don't want more opportunity they want to stick with quality. I don't see how this could be anything but a money issue??? More hunter opportunity = more tags sold = more $$$. You'd think the results of the survey would be enough to get these changes voted down... what are these guys thinking?

 

It is possible that the survey may show overwhelmingly that the vast majority of the hunters in this state are not happy with the recommendations. I agree that the Commission should listen to this and follow the majority of their constituent?s wishes. At this point in the game, I believe the Commission should just put these ideas on hold and keep things the way we had them for this year. I am saddened by the way everything has happened this year and hopefully it will be a good learning lesson for us all. With that said, there are some things all of us need to think about. We will have to progress to new things and strategies we have not had to do before. Our population is growing almost as fast as the opposition we are getting from animal defense people and eco nuts. TAM and friends, if any of you are able to attend the Commission meeting, please speak your minds about your concerns. Also recognize that maybe some of the ideas from the Commission that really light our rockets, may be ideas that will help in the future?

 

Can we have 2250 December whitetail tags in the central units in December forever?

 

Rembrandt: Your not too popular here. You make some good points that I agree with.

 

As I stated before, I have only hunted coues in southern Arizona so I am a virgin to some of this thinking.

 

May I ask you folks a question? If you are a coues hunter, I am sure you do not draw a December tag every year. Do you put in for the stratified hunts in my neck of the woods? Should I throw a fit about every deer that is killed in October or November?

 

This is a learning process for us all. We all have our own agenda's of what we want.

 

Let me make these points:

 

1. We all need to work hard to preserve our heritage for our children and grandchildren.

2. We all need to think progressive and stay on top of what is going on.

3. We will all have to concede our personal desires for the betterment of the whole.

4. We all need to require the Department and Commission to be responsive the voice of their constituents, the hunters.

5. We all need to get on board with our Commissioners and the Department and listen to the ideas they have. This needs to be a team. They need to respect us and ask us before we get the treatment. We need to work with them and understand their ideas.

 

I know of no one that has bitched more about this Department and Commission than I have. I am starting to learn. Although we do not agree, we all have valuable contributions to make.

 

I hope we all can join together getting to know the Commissioners that are in our area. WE ARE ALL ON THE SAME TEAM FOLKS. IT IS THE ONLY TEAM WE HAVE.

[Couesi1]

Rembrandt,

You make the best sense of all of the posts on this issue. You don't side with the overwhelming majority of conspiracy theorists who think that the game and fish is ONLY money driven. This issue has turned this once very enjoyable site into a "me" fest. Thank you for interpreting the game and fish efforts for what they obviously are, ........... an effort to provide a few more folks a chance to go hunt deer. You are certainly not afraid of stepping out there from the safety of the herd,....... there's not too many folks who have the nerve to do that. If the changes are approved, maybe us sportsmen who just want to hunt whitetail might actually draw a tag a little more often in central Arizona......maybe even the "me" generation conspiracy theorists will get to go a little more often too. If not, I guess I'll keep putting in for 22, 23 and 24A and get my quality rifle tag every 5 to 7 years that guarantees no more big bucks than any other hunt opportunity does. Maybe it's time to get a new hobby. No matter what happens, I refuse to be sucked into the vortex of negativity and me-isms.....I bet you won't either.

c-1

[migolito]

Ok KG,

Since you asked. Read what Dave said. He gets it! Just to add to his well reasoned thoughts. Organize, organize, organize. I mean it. Organize beyond what you think you need to organize. Make a commitment to take 50% of the time you would be out chasing game to organize and advocate. Get your kids, your fellow hunters, your NRA, your Rifle hunters, bowhunters, slingshot hunters, bird hunters, whatever, get them together...and form a Political Action Committee PAC. Make sure your at every function that has anything to do with fishing and hunting. Make yourselves a force to be reconed with. No game/fisheries planning should happen without your input and advice. Let every elected official, from the dog catcher to the governor know who you are.

STOP thinking of other hunters as adversarial, even if they are from a communist state like mine. Think of your hunting rights in a much broader way, out of staters are not your enemy. Our rights are intertwined. Every time any hunters rights are limited, eventually, yours will be too. Your seeing that happen right now, aren't you? I have warned you about what will happen in your state, because it has already happened in mine. For gods sake learn from my(Californias) experience. Don't think it won't happen to you, because as you have just seen, it already is.

 

Lastly, for every day you spend hunting or fishing, you should be spending a day advocating. I know it sounds harsh, but, if you really wan't your kids and your grand kids to hunt, its the only hope.

 

I truly wish you the best of luck.

 

M

[DesertBull]

Rembrandt,

You make the best sense of all of the posts on this issue.? You don't side with the overwhelming majority of conspiracy theorists who think that the game and fish is ONLY money driven.? This issue has turned this once very enjoyable site into a "me" fest.? Thank you for interpreting the game and fish efforts for what they obviously are, ........... an effort to provide a few more folks a chance to go hunt deer.? You are certainly not afraid of stepping out there from the safety of the herd,....... there's not too many folks who have the nerve to do that.?  If the changes are approved, maybe us sportsmen who just want to hunt whitetail might actually draw a tag a little more often in central Arizona......maybe even the "me" generation conspiracy theorists will get to go a little more often too.? If not, I guess I'll keep putting in for 22, 23 and 24A and get my quality rifle tag every 5 to 7 years that guarantees no more big bucks than any other hunt opportunity does.? Maybe it's time to get a new hobby.? No matter what happens, I refuse to be sucked into the vortex of negativity and me-isms.....I bet you won't either.?

c-1

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

So, being in support of more hunts and tags doesn't make you a "me" person?

 

 

Interesting.

[Rembrant]

Thanks for your words Cousi1, but Desertbull is right, we're all looking out for our best interests, and I am no different, I want to go deer hunting.

I tend to trust the game dept (how weird is that?). Heck, when they started the draw I can remember what all the deer hunters were saying then, "Whadya mean I can't go hunt wherever in the state I wanna hunt? ya mean I gotta stay in one measly little so-called unit??!"

Arizona was decades ahead of their time with this management approach. If other Western states haven't followed behind, they will. I like Dave's long post, and especially the way he ended it: Yep, we're on the same team. And the Dept is looking out for our hunting opportunities, and the protection of the resourse, and heck yeah it takes money to run the dept. If you're gonna dance, you gotta pay the band. The G&F has done unpopular things in the past, but it has always been for the right reasons.

I'll say it again, it sucks to see those Dec tags get reduced to 50. If it happens, I'm gonna take that punch to the gut and keep on rolling. Maybe with the changes, I'll actually get a tag every once in a while.

Mike

[az4life]

As lots of posts have said, sportsmen need to work with the AGFD and the AGFD needs to work with sportsmen. Many sportsmen and sportswomen may be screaming about the impact to "me" but "me" is really representative of a large group of hunters, not jsut one.

I believe we agree that Listening to many sides and viewpoints of the discussion gives us all good insight. The fact that this thread and others similar are hot topics shows we are all looking for more information. Open minds lead to discussions.

 

IF AGFD has chosen to dismiss the survey information as well as the public opinion that has already been voiced on the proposed changes, that is not a good example of cooperation and education. Painting each unit with the same broad stokes is not what most would call progressive insightful management.

 

One of Daves points was:

We all need to get on board with our Commissioners and the Department and listen to the ideas they have. This needs to be a team. They need to respect us and ask us before we get the treatment. We need to work with them and understand their ideas.

 

These things said, I will be impressed and surprised if they adjust the proposals at all. I will be the first to say "well done" if they take Any of the input for more than a fly in their soup. If no adjsutments are made, the only "treatment" we are likely to recieve will require you to turn your head and cough.

[DesertBull]

If 78% of the hunters surveyed would have said they were in favor of more opportunity, I would say good and would hope the Commision would abide by that, but 78% said they did not favor it. The whole reason it was proposed in the first place, according to the people in charge, was because they were under the impression that hunters wanted more tags.

 

We are the ones that pay the bills for the G&F. As long as it doesn't negatively impact the overall herd, we should have a LARGE say in the types of hunts that are offered.

 

Now, if they go ahead with this, even after seeing the overwhelming evidence that it is not supported by 3/4 of the deer hunters, then the only real conclusion we can come up with is because they either 1)Think they know what we REALLY want, or 2) they want to sell more tags.

 

They listened to the archery elk hunters when they oppossed more opportunity, will they listen to us?

[JACK]

WELL, IT SOUNDS LIKE IT WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE GAME AND FISH TO MAKE EVERYBODY HAPPY. THEY'RE DAMNED IF THEY DO AND DAMNED IF THEY DON'T.......SOMEWHERE THERE'S A HAPPY MEDIUM.......MABEY...? PERSONALY, IT DOSEN'T MATTER TO ME WHEATHER THERE IS 50 OR 500 DECEMBER PERMITS IN A GIVEN UNIT IF I WANT TO PUT IN FOR A SO CALLED "PREMIUM" "QUALITY" WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT, HUNT I SHOULD BE WILLING TO ACCEPT THE FACT THAT I MAY NOT BE GOING HUNTING FOR A FEW YEARS. MABEY I SHOULD BE WILLING TO PAY A "PREMIUM" FOR THAT TAG TOO! AND I WOULD! KNOWING THAT I WOULD MOST LIKELY HAVE A GREAT HUNT! IMAGINE HAVING A DEC. TAG IN 6A, 22, 23, 20 WHATEVER WITH ONLY 49 OTHER HUNTERS! I HAVE HUNTED THE OCT. NOV. AND DEC. AND THING THAT I HAVE NOTICED IS THAT THE "QUALITY" OF DEER NEVER CHANGES, THE G&F DOSEN'T TURN THE BIG BUCK LOOSE AFTER THE NOVEMBER HUNTS ENDS THEY ARE THERE 365 DAYS A YEAR. GO ON A FEW OCT. YOU WILL BECOME A BETTER HUNTER...........OR NOT!?

THE ONLY THING I KNOW FOR SURE IS THAT, THE ONLY CONSTENT THING IN LIFE IS CHANGE, AND IT WILL ALL WORK ITS SELF OUT.

[KGAINES]

I don't think it should be a us against them or a me against you thing, the survey has polled a lot of hunters, and I am sure they are from all over the state, plus several non-residents, and it is overwhelmingly in favor of keeping it the way it is. That sounds like we are mostly on the same team, our opinions might change if the game and fish gave better reasons for the changes than opportunity, and I don't think moving tags to oct. and giving ten days is going to give people opportunity, those were units with 100% draw odds and if any of us just wanted to hunt all we had to do was pick one of those, now with ten days those odds are not going to be 100%, but like I said I have a bow and I have 100% opportunity every year, but they are shortening that as well, and there aren't a lot of people in favor of that either, though the Jan. archery got a lot of votes to shorten the season with the lengthening of a juniors only Javelina hunt. Maybe I just don't want to see all this change at once, a little at a time would maybe be better, at least then they could see the overall impact on the deer and the responses from the hunters afterwards and decide whether to change it back or proceed forward, but once you make so many changes it will be hard to tell what changes are for the better of for the worse.

[dave]

I think everyone?s participation in this thread is valuable and I thank you all for contributing to this discussion.

 

I would like to make a few more observations and give an opinion.

 

What I believe is happening is that we the people, the Department, and the Commission have not progressively taken steps to keep up with our vastly growing state. We all have been fighting law suits etc.. One Commissioner recognizes this and has begun to try to offer ideas that will improve some of the situations that exist now. In response to his ideas, the Department offers recommendations to try to accommodate those ideas. We have a situation where we are trying to correct problems we have by changing the hunt structure. I think we may need to change the hunt structure but we are getting the cart before the horse. What we really need to do is agree on a strategy in how we will count animals, browse, and many other things.

 

I think the ADA needs to be commended for the effort and money they have spent trying to help the Department and the Commission see the feelings of the sportspeople. I view the survey as an effort the ADA has made to help our Department and Commission. The response I expect from our Department and the Commission is to recognize the passion these hunters have for our resource and join together with them in an effort to improve what we are doing. The 6500 that took the time to respond are the ones that care and are out there working to improve things. In my book, that is the overwhelming voice of the public. This survey deserves the same respect and consideration given to the elk survey. It also surpasses the Departments survey regarding opportunity for hunters. They only had 5000 respond to that. This is not a contest. This is people expressing there opinions.

 

At this point in time, I think we should put the deer recommendations on hold. We need to get our stuff together about how we are going to measure our resource and allot tags. Hopefully this will be a joint effort between the hunters, Commission and Department. We do have to make improvements in what we are doing. Some of those improvements may not be what each and every person wants. We have to do what is right for the future, the future of our children and the future of the resource.

 

Hope I see some of you at the Commission meeting and I hope our Commissioners do the right thing.

[Red Rabbit]

Dave, Amanda, Mike and others, I would like to thank you for your calm-headed thoughts regarding the hunt proposals and their effect. I hope that speakers tomorrow at the meeting are also polite, calm and documented in their presentations.

 

Below is a letter I have drafted to the commissioners to reiterate my opinions given in the surveys and local meetings.

 

April 21, 2006

 

 

Dear Commissioners:

 

As you consider the proposed Commission Orders for the 2006-2007 hunting season, I would like to thank you for the position you took regarding the archery elk hunt restructuring. While I do see the need to increase hunter opportunity to retain and recruit hunters, more opportunity in exchange for much poorer hunt quality as was proposed was not merited. The elk survey results, as do the current deer survey results, indicated that Arizona hunters do not want to sacrifice total hunt quality for opportunity. We in Arizona are blessed with a quality game herds due to the efforts of the department, commission, hunters and sportsmen?s groups, and I personally do not want to see this sacrificed. We all want to see quality and opportunity, which is a difficult balancing act and your decisions cannot satisfy both groups.

 

Regarding the proposals for the deer hunts:

? I support the proposed.reduction of the number of buck and antlerless permits in 12A-West.

? The current percentage of December whitetail permits in the southern units is 5%. With a stated goal of up to 10% December permits, more December permits could be issued in many units.

? For central Arizona units, I support the stratified hunt seasons, but not to the numbers shown. Too many of the December permits have been shifted and increased in number to the earlier October or November hunt The permit numbers are too high to create a quality experience. The coues in these units tend to be located in more isolated pockets, which will lead to the hundreds of hunters concentrated in these areas. I had a 6A December tag several years ago with 299 other hunters, and in two areas that I hunted, hunters were 50 to 100 yards apart while glassing along the canyon rims. Now, 6A is to have an October hunt with 400 permittees. Perhaps these October numbers can be reduced some and the few remaining December tags increased to still provide increased opportunity with a quality experience.

? With the extension of the October hunt to 10 days, which I endorse, one would have to believe that hunter success will also increase. The overall unit permit numbers should be adjusted to reflect this anticipated harvest increase.

? According to the 2004 season figures, the latest I have seen published, there were 7 of the 13 southern units with October draw odds of 100%. Three others had odds of 99, 98 and 96%. If a person wanted to hunt and did not apply for these units in their first two choices, that person actually chose not to hunt. If people are saying that they are not getting drawn, perhaps they are choosing not to hunt by not applying for the existing October whitetail tags, or are strictly mule deer hunters whose units have poor odds statewide, or strictly apply for trophy strip unit hunts or December whitetail hunts.

 

Regarding the junior javelina season slated to begin the last week of January, the javelina seasons for junior, HAM and rifle hunters could be shifted one week later, with the junior hunt beginning Feb. 2 and the rifle season ending March 8. I did not notice any later spring hunts this shift would overlap with, as spring bear begins March 23. This shift would alleviate the overlap with the archery deer and javelina seasons in January, with any fathers who may be bowhunting, and not result in the shortening of the archery seasons.

 

Fall bear season start dates may not need to be uniformed, as they still could coincide with the dates of the food sources (berries, acorns, and prickly pear fruit) for the various units.

 

I hope your decisions reflect the future of Arizona?s wildlife, the input of the biologists and the interests of the hunters in light of the increasing human population and habitat changes.

 

 

Regards,

 

Doug Koepsel