Need more green ones (good guys)....who will be next?

[wellhead]

Just read AWF's position http://www.azwildlife.org/ht/a/GetDocumentAction/i/114500

Good reading.

[bigjohnson123]

I am 100% percent fully for the passing and implementation of hb2072 and here is why. We as sportsman of arizona are facing some tremendous upcoming issues that will negatively affect each of us and more so our chilren. Priority #1 Wolves. Do you guys have any idea how many proposed wolf reitrodution area there are in the works? Several! First and foremost the Kaibab and Arizona Strip Region. These areas fit the criteria perfectly for wolf reintoduction. Next comes the unit 9 & 10. These units close proximity to National Park and Indian Reservations makes them a close second to the proposal North of the canyon. A full wolf reintroduction will much more negativley affect YOUR ability to hunt elk and deer than auctioning off 55 tags to the highest bidders. Especially when a significant portion of the proceeds will go directly into fighting the wolf programs. 55 tags to the highest bidders and 295 raffle tags! How many of you would shut right up if you won a unit 10 or 9 early rifle tag in the raffle. The passion and energy that some of you express on this and other websites is impressive to say the least. Too bad it is spent punching computer keyes instead of applied toward things that can make an actual difference. Instead you choose to rant and rave and stroke each others lynch mob egos. Do you really think that Hamberlin and other wealthy people behind this bill really contrived it to make money for their own pockets? Really? Hamberlin has spent well over 1 million bucks in AZ buying tags. All you see is the "buying tags" part! You don't see the hundreds of thousands of dollars in time and material that has gone to water and habitat projects across so many of Az's top units! You are stuck in this wealth envy state of mind that is so typical of Liberalism! So what if they have more money than you and can purchase a tag and go hunt. We ought to thank them for spending it on auction tags, because you benefit from it each and everytime you go big game hunting in AZ! Instead you scream and yell about how they are tag theives and liars and backstabbers and out to get "YOUR" tags. How much have you screamers donated to the wildlife you hunt? How much have you whiners saved to fight the wolves and other political fights hurtling down the pike straight at AZ? How many of you bitchers have ever done one thing to perpetuate, improve and conserve AZ wildlife for future young hunters? So few of you that it is pathetic, just like your argument against this bill....Get off your self rightous high horses..

[azpackhorse]

dang, they are coming out of the woodwork today huh?

[krp]

I'll thank them when they donate the money and don't get a tag or value... lol

 

What do I get for what I do... gratification... that's it. if it was so important and they so rich everything would be fixed already.

 

Bad argument on legislating a public stimulus and bailout... I don't buy it from Obama or azsfw... you got the liberal socialists mixed up.

 

Kent

[krp]

The wolf issue is a red herring...

 

Kent

[SNORT]

Let me clear on my motivation for even participating in your discussions.

I've viewed them for a while and agree with some and disagree with others.

That's my right, to be a free thinker.

When I see comments like you have to get off the fence, that if your for the AZSFW then your the enemy, is not the right course of action.

There are many good people that a have not jumped into one camp or the other, and that's OK.

There is a tremendous amount of miss information running a muck and facts need to be clarified.

I've seen where people are being crucified by association and they wish they would have been informed about the under takings that were being developed.

These people are not elected public officials and creating a witch hunt within our own fold I don't feel is right.

 

AZPackhorse - I didn't post to take away focus, it was to stimulate thought on how could others become involved and become a voice and physical participant themselves. Not only for the Blog writers but also the silent viewers. That's what a blog is for right? To express different views and exchange information so we can develop a personal stance on an issue.

 

40-year-AZ-hunter -I was not there. I have been there many times and spoken on issues. I had to work. I will be there on the 22nd though, sacrificing time from my family. I will send you a PM.

 

Ringer - Thank you for answering a question that was meant to be rhetorical. I applaud you for your hard work on G&F projects and the USO as this is the type of action that I feel we should be undertaking.

I don't feel that I am arrogant and if I came across that way, sorry.

Once again my intent to encourage those to become involved and give back to what we all love and have a passion for.

If I was arrogant, I would give you the laundry list of devotion that I give to wildlife annually, with money being the least of it.

The largest problem we have as I see it is: We see those same names over and over, whether it be on the AZSFW/AZSFWC Board or other boards from ADA, AES, ADBSS, AAF etc, etc.

I'd just like to see new people with their families getting involved for the future and legacy of sportsmen and conservation.

We as sportsmen own this to each other and our future.

Pick a species, pick a organization, get involved.

The hikers in the Sierra Club do, and they don't like to see your 4x4.

For crying out loud, We have to camouflage our Water Catchment tanks so they are not seen from the plane window at 30,000ft.

I could think of a few better places to spend the Tag Fund money than on 25 gals of paint a pop.

[Hunter X]

What I don't understand is if the AZSFW is all about helping AZ wildlife and not about making money for themselves or catering to some of their wealthy backers then why not make all the tags raffle tags, get rid of the administrations and any other BS fees and put all 100% of the money generated from these raffle tags into conserving AZ's big game. That being said I don't know why the G&F would give out tags to an organization to make money from by auctioning or raffling them off when the G&F could due this themselves and cut out the middle man.

[coueshunter]

I see "getting involved" as one of the major problems facing hunters. More people need to get involved with conservation orgs, helping junior hunts/camps, volunteering for clean ups/water projects etc....get involved wherever you can within the constraints that job/family allow. We do need to JOIN TOGETHER, all of us somehow some way to present somewhat of a strong front against the issues facing the future of hunting/outdoor recreation in this state and the USA. I think the websites like CW & others provide a format for COMMUNICATION that helps allow the general public to stay in touch with issues that are important. I also think there are way way more lurkers/observers and average joe hunters that are on internets than what people realize. That being said, this website has really helped in getting the attention of people. Take the time today/tomorrow to get involved in any way you can.............thanks..........Allen Taylor............

[krp]

Here's a question...

 

How is more money going to get more people involved, seriously are you going to hire them. What I hear is no one shows, it's the same 8 people on a project, we need the money from the tags. So it belies much of the propaganda on how much can be done and how powerful the orgs are if they can't generate volunteers.

 

I was at the Mesa dept meeting monday and guess what, no one showed from an org and only a couple showed at all. Then again we did get to have lengthy discussions on youth retention and possible new unaffiliated jr camps and the possibility of region specific habitat stamps to generate funds into the HPC.

 

How is the money going to get more folks involved specifically?

 

Kent

[Ringer]

Wow! Little johnson has got to be Don Peay. As for you Snort we are not that far apart but there is not much of a chance to get massive numbers of people to volunteer as they really just care about the next trip to the lake or hunt. What will get them active is something like USO or HB2072 so I guess we should thank AZSFW for that part. Until the group agrees to full disclosure of every nickel spent and completely open books I view them with as much trust as a used car salesman. People here just don't like the idea of selling first place in line to anyone for any reason and that includes our G&F department. Too bad, so sad.

[wetmule]

How is doing backroom deals with little to no involvement from any of the partner groups under your umbrella that you represent - or not sharing your ideas and information on legislative proposals with anyone ...... HOW is that getting people involved? You would think that they would want to get all constituents involved in the process before bringing forth such a huge possible change to the system? Did they do that - NO.....and now they are asking for people to trust them after a couple of tweaks. Did they ask for involvement before they made the tweaks, I don't think so - I think they just responded to the negative criticism and tweaked it themselves with little outside involvement.

It could be the greatest piece of legislation since sliced bread but if you try to do it in the dark of night under the table you've broken any trust that may have existed prior.

Makes no sense to me!

[Snapshot]

I am 100% percent fully for the passing and implementation of hb2072 and here is why. We as sportsman of arizona are facing some tremendous upcoming issues that will negatively affect each of us and more so our chilren. Priority #1 Wolves. Do you guys have any idea how many proposed wolf reitrodution area there are in the works? Several! First and foremost the Kaibab and Arizona Strip Region. These areas fit the criteria perfectly for wolf reintoduction. Next comes the unit 9 & 10. These units close proximity to National Park and Indian Reservations makes them a close second to the proposal North of the canyon. A full wolf reintroduction will much more negativley affect YOUR ability to hunt elk and deer than auctioning off 55 tags to the highest bidders. Especially when a significant portion of the proceeds will go directly into fighting the wolf programs. 55 tags to the highest bidders and 295 raffle tags! How many of you would shut right up if you won a unit 10 or 9 early rifle tag in the raffle. The passion and energy that some of you express on this and other websites is impressive to say the least. Too bad it is spent punching computer keyes instead of applied toward things that can make an actual difference. Instead you choose to rant and rave and stroke each others lynch mob egos. Do you really think that Hamberlin and other wealthy people behind this bill really contrived it to make money for their own pockets? Really? Hamberlin has spent well over 1 million bucks in AZ buying tags. All you see is the "buying tags" part! You don't see the hundreds of thousands of dollars in time and material that has gone to water and habitat projects across so many of Az's top units! You are stuck in this wealth envy state of mind that is so typical of Liberalism! So what if they have more money than you and can purchase a tag and go hunt. We ought to thank them for spending it on auction tags, because you benefit from it each and everytime you go big game hunting in AZ! Instead you scream and yell about how they are tag theives and liars and backstabbers and out to get "YOUR" tags. How much have you screamers donated to the wildlife you hunt? How much have you whiners saved to fight the wolves and other political fights hurtling down the pike straight at AZ? How many of you bitchers have ever done one thing to perpetuate, improve and conserve AZ wildlife for future young hunters? So few of you that it is pathetic, just like your argument against this bill....Get off your self rightous high horses..

 

Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out. AZSFW Cronies!

[krp]

The Public Trust Doctrine, derived from the 1842 U.S. Supreme Court case Martin v. Waddell, is considered the keystone of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. It represents the common law foundation for trust status of wildlife resources in the United States.

 

Wildlife as Public Trust Resources

Elimination of Markets for Game

Allocation of Wildlife by Law

Wildlife Should Only be Killed for a Legitimate Purpose

Wildlife Are Considered an International Resource

Science is the Proper Tool for Discharge of Wildlife Policy

Democracy of Hunting

 

Greer v. Connecticut, 161 U.S. 519 (1896). In 1896, the Supreme Court declared that the states property right in game was to be exercised as a trust for the benefit of the people of the state. Up until this ruling the 10th Amendment of the Constitution only appeared to give states jurisdiction over wildlife. This court case is considered by many to be the core ruling of states public trust authority over wildlife but it is somewhat controversial because it does so in terms of ownership.

 

I see a big problem legally with 2072 and for sure challenged by anti's and losing, costing taxpayer monies and a huge gamble on losing the original 30 tags in the process.

 

Kent

[BuzzH]

Priority #1 Wolves. Do you guys have any idea how many proposed wolf reitrodution area there are in the works? Several! First and foremost the Kaibab and Arizona Strip Region. These areas fit the criteria perfectly for wolf reintoduction. Next comes the unit 9 & 10. These units close proximity to National Park and Indian Reservations makes them a close second to the proposal North of the canyon. A full wolf reintroduction will much more negativley affect YOUR ability to hunt elk and deer than auctioning off 55 tags to the highest bidders. Especially when a significant portion of the proceeds will go directly into fighting the wolf programs.

 

What a crock...can you explain AZSFW's official plan they have for fighting the wolf issue? Let me give you a little history into what went on in MT, ID, and WY. There were many groups involved in "fighting" the wolf reintroduction there, many with very deep pockets. Yet, the wolf reintroduction happened...and throwing more money at it would not have changed the outcome. SFW likes to make you believe that the answer to everything is simply money, and thats just not true. With no plan, SFW has got NO clue how to even begin fighting the common cold...much less an important hunting related issue.

 

 

How many of you would shut right up if you won a unit 10 or 9 early rifle tag in the raffle.

 

I bet not many. I'm impressed with the passion and high sense of morality/ethics that the sportsmen on this site, and Arizona in general, have regarding this issue. The hunters in Arizona seem to stand for something bigger than their individual desire to draw a tag. They fully understand the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation and their ethics are not for sale. I cant say the some for any of the SFW kool-aid swillers. They'd sell their souls, and already have, for their "right" to throw the average DIY hunters under the bus for personal gain (auction tags).

 

The passion and energy that some of you express on this and other websites is impressive to say the least.

 

Possibly the only smart thing you've said on this subject...and that should be the take-home message you take back to AZSFW...these guys are serious, and they mean business.

 

Too bad it is spent punching computer keyes instead of applied toward things that can make an actual difference. Instead you choose to rant and rave and stroke each others lynch mob egos.

 

Again, a crock of B.S. These guys are not interested in their egos...they're interested in the future of their sport and the future generations that will follow. Many here are involved and I watched as people from this board testified today in front of the commission. They werent lobbying the commission for auction tags, they were asking to keep hunting in reach of the average sportsmen. Hardly for the sake of stroking their egos.

 

Do you really think that Hamberlin and other wealthy people behind this bill really contrived it to make money for their own pockets? Really? Hamberlin has spent well over 1 million bucks in AZ buying tags.

 

You answered your own question. If he donated the 1 million bucks and received nothing for it, you may have a point. He is pushing this idea so he and his wealthy buddies can cut in line and hunt Arizona each year. I always find it laughable when people with money claim to be champions of wildlife, yet wont donate a red cent without taking something in return. Its gotten so out of hand in most states, that these people buying wealth tags will not even buy one unless they cant hunt statewide, for several months or in the case of AZ for an entire year. I dont think its asking to much to make a Governors tag holder declare a hunting unit and hunt within the same regulations as those that obtained tags via the general drawing. Again, its EXPECTED that with money should come privilege...and thats B.S. any way you care to slice it.

 

All you see is the "buying tags" part!

 

Wrong again, I think what many see is the commercialization and privitazition of a public resource and the erosion of the North American Model.

 

You don't see the hundreds of thousands of dollars in time and material that has gone to water and habitat projects across so many of Az's top units!

 

You're right we dont...because there isnt any accountabilty to where AZSFW spends their money. HB2072, in its original form, didnt address accountability for a single dollar. Only when pressed by the concerned sportsmen did a lame second attempt at 2072, include anything to do with accountability of funds. I'd argue that AZSFW would be no better than their sister group in UT, where cloudy accounting and ZERO transparency of funds rule the day.

 

You are stuck in this wealth envy state of mind that is so typical of Liberalism! So what if they have more money than you and can purchase a tag and go hunt. We ought to thank them for spending it on auction tags, because you benefit from it each and everytime you go big game hunting in AZ!

 

I'm not envious of their money, they're envious of the wildlife that rightfully belongs to the public. Further, they throw their suckers in the dirt, hold their breath, and stomp their feet everytime they are challenged by those that have the most flesh in the game when it comes to the publics wildlife (average joe hunters). Get used to it, average hunters are the core of the hunting community and have done ALL the heavy lifting when it comes to what we currently have for wildlife resources in the United States. News Flash! We did it without a single wealth tag.

 

Instead you scream and yell about how they are tag theives and liars and backstabbers and out to get "YOUR" tags.

 

They are the publics tags...not the highest bidders tags. Its unfair to allow those with a few more dollars cut in line over the hunters that have spent years and years supporting wildlife. The upside to letting those with money wait in line with everyone else when it comes to a public resource is, there isnt a downside. Public resources should not be peddled to the highest bidder.

 

How much have you screamers donated to the wildlife you hunt?

 

They've donated one heck of a lot more than any of the johnie-come-lately groups like AZSFW and their band of merry tag thieves. Theres no question that 100+ years of average guys shelling out for hunting licenses, paying dues to hunting organizations, etc. trumps all the money ever raised by wealth tags...and by a land-slide, at a minimum.

 

How much have you whiners saved to fight the wolves and other political fights hurtling down the pike straight at AZ? How many of you bitchers have ever done one thing to perpetuate, improve and conserve AZ wildlife for future young hunters? So few of you that it is pathetic, just like your argument against this bill....Get off your self rightous high horses..

 

As to the first part of your post, again, show me the SFW plan for "fighting" the wolf issue, explain how much good they did in MT, ID, and WY. I'll save you the trouble, all they did was OPPOSE the very legislation that resulted in MT and ID having legal seasons.

 

What "other political fights" are "hurtling down the pike"??? What is SFW's plan to address it? Sell more wealth tags? Great plan.

 

I'd say we have done a very good job. We brought back almost all wildlife...both game and non-game, to near record levels. Again, all without a single wealth tag. I'd reckon that the average DIY public land hunter has a right to be on a high horse. Their accomplishments are nothing short of amazing. They are the original Conservationist and the last thing they need is to be lectured by someone like you.

 

You have yourself a good day.

[Snapshot]

Amen BuzzH. Well said, and accurate to the letter.