javihammer Report post Posted February 8, 2012 I looked into the Western Hunting and Conservation Expo that will be in Salt Lake City this weekend. It should be called the "SFW Promotion and Average Hunter Opportunity Degradation Expo". The SFW has a large booth by the front entrance and no less than five affiliate booths spread throughout the room (SFW Wyoming (two booths), SFW New Mexico (one booth), SFW Colorado (one booth), SFW Alaska (at least one booth). They even got the Utah DWR to help promote the event. Their name is even listed on the logo. Some other interesting items of note. I ran the numbers on the 200 auction tags that will be raffled in Utah, I calculated the average dollars generated per tag to be around $6,350/tag (I used their own draw odds table to calculate this...data was from 2011). This is a gross estimate so any fees or other expenses that come off the gross proceeds (not sure what those are) would drive the net proceeds down. If a guy were to buy 1270 tickets ($6,350/worth) evenly distributed among species, he would have the odds necessary to draw at least one tag in the raffle (and if he didnt draw a tag he could also draw some pretty nice equiptment). I didnt see anything on the FAQ that limits the total number of raffle tickets that could be purchased. Another interesting thing, there is a new requirement in the Utah EXPO raffle this year that requires a valid Utah hunting license and it must be validated onsite in order to apply to the draw. Pretty sneaky way to increase the raffle odds for the inside crowd. I would guess the total number of tickets purchased will be much lower this year. I guess the SFW convinced the Utah DWR to create a nice barrier to entry in order to keep their own raffle odds as high as possible. The fact that Utah allowed this blows my mind. Do you think there are wealthy people in Utah willing to gamble $6,300 to acquire a tag and maybe even a tag that they would otherwise not be able to get due to once in a lifetime rules? Utah even allows SFW guys to buy blocks of raffle tickets themselves, like that doesn’t present a conflict of interest or anything. Is it fair that Utah average joes are allowing their premium tags be squandered so that the SFW and the Utah DWR can make a measely $5,000 each (estimated average net proceeds after the SFW admin expenses - I estimated about 20% lost to these..the actual net for each tags is probably much lower). Brilliant plan, lets call it the SFW hunt raffle insurance program. Rich guys spend $6000 per western state for raffle tickets (lets call it $30,000 a year for 5 states...and that $30,000 would probably be tax deductible). Each state is good for an average of one tag per year, rich guy draws an average of 5 "premium" tags a year. And now the best part, the public gets to pay the premium on this insurance program by providing the product (tags) at below market rates.......WHAT A DEAL! AND THE SFW GETS TO MAKE LOTS OF MONEY IN THE PROCESS, ENOUGH FOR LOTS OF BOOTHS AT THE EXPO FOR MORE SELF PROMOTION...YAY! AND NOW THE SADDEST PART OF ALL.........an "Arizona Special Deer Tag" is being auctioned off at the EXPO. This tag should really be auctioned off by a legitimate conservation group in Arizona. Auctioning it at the EXPO in Utah kind of implies an endorsement of the SFW. SFW is obviously trying to be the exclusive distributor of gray market (non public drawing tags) in the western US. The more tags they get for their “EXPO” the more this will allow them to monopolize the market and try to call the shots. It would be really easy for them to start trying to leverage the state wildlife agencies for specific types of tags if they feel their “market” demands it. Wildlife agencies need to cut this group off the wholesale tag gravy train (owned by the public) before it is too late to turn back. Arizona tags are awesome, we don’t need these guys to act as our broker. Anyone attending the expo should think twice before buying a raffle ticket, you will be feeding the monster if you do. FYI –If you don’t like my numbers feel free to provide some numbers of your own. I think my estimates are within single digit percentage point but they are admittedly back of the envelope calculations. I got my data from http://www.huntexpo.com/odds2011.php Ryan “Starve the SFW tag monster, keep tags in Arizona” Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.270 Report post Posted February 8, 2012 Like I said. This thing has more tentacles than a whole bucket o' squids. There is always a lot more of the iceberg that you can't see. Lark. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krp Report post Posted February 8, 2012 I have MDF's numbers from 2010 on Utah tags... quick count of tags was 115... their listed numbers are... 948,400.00 raised... 94,840.00 10% admin fee... 569,040.00 60% projects... 284,520.00 30% DWR Kent Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krp Report post Posted February 8, 2012 Their application for 2011 was for 200 tags. Kent Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rthrbhntng Report post Posted February 8, 2012 Ok, I don't usually post on these types of threads, mainly because I don't have the time but here it goes. I thought I would provide some clarity to the Utah Tag Program. As far as the Utah Convention (Expo) tags a raffle ticket buyer can only purchase one ticket for each tag. Here are the links to the statutes for the tags. Notice that there are two types of tags in Utah. 1. Conservation tags given to many, I repeat many, organizations throughout Utah. This option splits the money 10% to the group, 60% to the Utah DNR to be used for habitat projects coordinated with the groups, and 30% to the Utah DNR to be used for admin of the programs. #2. Wildlife Convention Tags, given to a single organization for a convention, Expo, to draw people to the expo. The group can be any group that wants to put on an expo that will draw more than 10,000 people. The money from this set of tags is designated for purposes of generating revenue to fund wildlife conservation activities and attracting a regional or national wildlife convention to Utah. I have included links to the statutes and a Utah Legislative Auditor Generals report on some of the tags. Conservation Tags Convention Tags Auditor Repot Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DesertBull Report post Posted February 8, 2012 All the Utah hunters seem to hate the Utah tag convention and 100's of tags they take out of the draw, but 1,000's still go there and spend their money. You can't do both. either hate it and stay away or like and participate. I hope you choose to hate it keep your money in your pocket. As long as the profits are there, they will never shut it down, no matter how many people complain. I would have drawn a Mnt Goat tag and a limited entry deer tag by now if it were not for the tag thievery conducted by SFW. And when they tell you they need money to fight the wolf huggers.....they lie. They use the wolf issue to keep the money coming in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
javihammer Report post Posted February 9, 2012 Rthrbhunting – Thank you for clarifying the one raffle ticket per person per hunt. It looks like there are about 106 flavors of hunts and the maximum number of raffle tickets that could be purchased would depend on whether a person were a resident or non-resident. With one ticket per hunt I would say the odds of abuse are quite low. I think the EXPO FAQ should have clarified that point. I also re-ran the numbers and the average gross per tag is more like $4,900 for 2011. I still think the “onsite license validation” is a scam though. Whether the actual average money raised per tag is 2k, 3k, 4k or 5k, that is still chump change and far too low to justify pulling these tags from an Average Joe that may have decades and thousands invested in hunting license fees. Most Utah Average Joes probably think these raffle tags are generating 20k or more per tag (like the auction tags do) when reality is quite different. Arizona should still bring our muley tag home, the SFW is using the public tags to make money to leverage even more public tags. The more tags they control the more tags they can potentially control, someone called it a ponzi scheme, I couldn’t agree more. Alot of the crown jewel tags of the hunting world reside in Arizona and we do have more power than most states to push through the SFW headwind. The SFW is only powerful if they are given the tags to be powerful, if western states pulled their expo auction tags the power of the SFW would go waaaaaaaay down. I am pretty proud of our current Game and Fish Commission, they are doing a great job. Kent – I feel like we had a good window table at a restaurant and were moved to the back of the restaurant because we told the waitress we found a hair in our soup. We didn’t put the hair in our soup, someone in their kitchen probably did. I guess it is easier to hush the diners than fish the big ball of hair out of the pot in the kitchen. The public would probably be better off if someone just got rid of the hairball. Who cares how it got there, just get it out…..or go fishin’ and eat some crappie instead . Ryan "Starve the SFW tag monster, keep Arizona tags local" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
javihammer Report post Posted February 9, 2012 Rthrbhunting – Thank you for clarifying the one raffle ticket per person per hunt. It looks like there are about 106 flavors of hunts and the maximum number of raffle tickets that could be purchased would depend on whether a person were a resident or non-resident. With one ticket per hunt I would say the odds of abuse are quite low. I think the EXPO FAQ should have clarified that point. I also re-ran the numbers and the average gross per tag is more like $4,900 for 2011. I still think the “onsite license validation” is a scam though. Whether the actual average money raised per tag is 2k, 3k, 4k or 5k, that is still chump change and far too low to justify pulling these tags from an Average Joe that may have decades and thousands invested in hunting license fees. Most Utah Average Joes probably think these raffle tags are generating 20k or more per tag (like the auction tags do) when reality is quite different. Arizona should still bring our muley tag home, the SFW is using the public tags to make money to leverage even more public tags. The more tags they control the more tags they can potentially control, someone called it a ponzi scheme, I couldn’t agree more. Alot of the crown jewel tags of the hunting world reside in Arizona and we do have more power than most states to push through the SFW headwind. The SFW is only powerful if they are given the tags to be powerful, if western states pulled their expo auction tags the power of the SFW would go waaaaaaaay down. I am pretty proud of our current Game and Fish Commission, they are doing a great job. Kent – I feel like we had a good window table at a restaurant and were moved to the back of the restaurant because we told the waitress we found a hair in our soup. We didn’t put the hair in our soup, someone in their kitchen probably did. I guess it is easier to hush the diners than fish the big ball of hair out of the pot in the kitchen. The public would probably be better off if someone just got rid of the hairball. Who cares how it got there, just get it out…..or go fishin’ and eat some crappie instead . Ryan "Starve the SFW tag monster, keep Arizona tags local" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
longshooter Report post Posted February 9, 2012 All the Utah hunters seem to hate the Utah tag convention and 100's of tags they take out of the draw, but 1,000's still go there and spend their money. You can't do both. either hate it and stay away or like and participate. They call them "Utards" for a reason. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rthrbhntng Report post Posted February 9, 2012 I find it interesting that the Conservation tags in Utah go to 9 different groups and the Expo tags go to SFW and still everyone is focused on SFW. Why not go after the other eight groups? The Expo tags are actually available to any groups, unlike Arizona's tag grab, that wants to put on a banquet, including any out of state groups. The tags were designed to be used for an economic benefit to the State of Utah. SFW and MDF teamed up because SFW couldn't put on an expo by themselves. In the beginning there were other groups in that partnership but most of them didn't like the heat that SFW caused. Now we are here in AZ talking about keeping the Special Deer tag in Arizona. What about the other tags that are sold out of state? The Commission feels that the out of state groups not only partner in state with projects and funnel money raised here back into Arizona but that there are other venues out of state that will bring top dollar for the tag. Remember that NO-ONE receives any $$$s from the auctioning of the AZ Special Tags. 100% of that money goes back to AZGFD. What we do get is the privilege to be involved in the distribution of that money for projects that benefit the species that the tag is good for. SFW does not get a tag and has no say in how the money is spent. I have talked to many Utah Sportsmen about this issue and I have found none that like the way it is up there. The thing that is interesting to me is that everyone of them only talks about SFW. I don't like the way that SFW went about doing what they have done in Utah and other states.I am one of the people that is glad that sportsmen of Arizona have risen up to defend something they think is wrong. I am also one of the people that like George from Yuma would like to find out where we go from here. It seems like when something like this issue with the tags comes up it temporarily polarizes Arizona Sportsmen and then all the sportsmen go back into the woods and wait for something to happen before they come together again. Our hunting heritage is constantly under attack and we need to get organized so we can be a constant force of action on each and every issue. It doesn't take much time or energy but it seems to be hard to accomplish. It seems that for most people hunting is not a team sport so I understand the individualism of the sport. Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krp Report post Posted February 9, 2012 The history of SFW and special tags in various states is directly related to our issue of 2072 and should be studied to understand 'ALL' the implications. The MDF/SFW partnership and the Utah Expo has also been portrayed as a justifying model of 2072 and the money it would bring to the state in attendance. Looking into that history and realizing that WHCE is benefiting from one or more of our tags, means it should be brought up as an issue. MDF's own words, aug 4 2010 in their application to the DWR for tags... The Mule Deer Foundation in conjunction with our partners SFW have raised over $15 million dollars for wildlife since 2007 when the WHCE held it's first convention in Salt Lake City. The WHCE attracts outfitters/guides, exhibitors, attendees and corporate sponsors from several countries. The economic impact to the State of Utah is tremendous. I'll repeat that... The economic impact to the State of Utah is tremendous. Besides the Utah tags, at least one of our tags contribute to their economic impact. I want that Az tag impact removed from the state of Utah and put right here in Arizona. It may upset some of the big spenders for the short term and bring less money, but it will bring more prestige/economic impact to a venue and rise back up, creating value in the tag and the economy. Kent Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
javihammer Report post Posted February 9, 2012 Sure glad I shoot a Mathews…… http://www.muledeer.org/blog/pre-whce-media-tour . No doubt the expo is good for the state of Utah, I wonder if the SFW leadership has a key to the Utah governors office? rtherbhuntng .... I mostly agree with you. Although I haven't seen any hard data either way, I would imagine a larger pool of bidders would indeed result in a higher auction price for the Arizona tag. It would actually be nice to see some real data either way (there probably is and I am just too unsophisticated to find it). I realize wildlife agencies need the money but there are hidden costs associated with partnering with an organization that has made it abundantly clear they will stop at nothing to control the distribution of as many tags as they possibly can. Even though AZGFD refused to pay a brokerage fee like many other states, the SFW gets the benefit of the appearance of a partnership with Arizona which probably brings in additional money through expo tickets, side raffles, etc. I am sure SFW markets their expo as "one stop shopping" for premium auction tags. If the states that own those premium tags (and there really aren't that many) were to hold them back, even for a couple years, the level of influence and monopolization by the SFW would be reduced. States like Utah might be too far gone at this point, I started reading the Utah regulations and the things that have happened to the residents and the level of complexity that has been introduced to their system is really sad and depressing... premium tags, conservation hunting licenses, dedicated hunter resident/non resident.....good grief. Manipulation through confusion seems to be the motive to me. Anyway, the Arizona auction tag is clearly a crack in the door toward uglier things and creates a channel for dialogue involving people that do not have the interests of the Arizona majority as a priority. It would be a pretty sad world if obtaining a decent hunt opportunity involved a singular system or distribution channel (kind of like MLS for real estate or even e-bay for that matter). Hunt opportunities are a public resource and maximizing or minimizing revenue on either end isn't the singular goal as it is for MLS and E-bay. The fact that SFW feels it needs to market itself the way it does raises suspicions that there are things going on in that organization that go far beyond conservation (a MEDIA TOUR, cmon). There is an equity component to the distribution of game tags that is independent of the bottom line numbers, the line separating the needs for revenue and maintaining alignment with the North American model of conservation is somewhat subjective and groups like the SFW are always trying to push the line over as much as possible to maximize opportunity for a wealthy few. Keeping these gray market tags limited to a single event also exposes us to the risk of introduced market forces (like the "onsite validation of the hunting license") that exist for no other reason than to steer tags into the pockets of friends or members of the brokering organization. The people at AZGFD are busy and I understand that they need to make decisions that can be easily explained and supported (it would be hard to argue for less money for an auction tag). I would submit that taking a stand against having anything to do with the SFW may be a difficult thing to support in the short run but could pay off with big dividends in the long run as the department is better able to maintain control of its own assets and the reduced legal expenses of having to deal with schemes from outside forces in the future. Arizona is a big missing piece in the SFW puzzle and it needs to stay that way, the first step is to tank the AZSFW and the next step is to convince the right forces at AZGFD to bring our tag home. Arizona has the toughest sheriff in America, a governor that isn't afraid to tell Obama what she thinks, and an AZGFD commission that voted 5-0 to oppose HB 2072. Anyone that thinks they are going to come into our house and grab the remote obviously hasn't been paying attention. Ryan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Red Rabbit Report post Posted February 9, 2012 I can't see why having the tag auctioned in UT will make a difference. Those with the money wanting to hunt the strip will likely have their guide/outfitter pre-chosen and have their bids submitted over the phone. If the tag auction is held at a smaller AZ banquet, it should conceivably go for the same amount as only the same select few are making the final bids. jmo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
archerycrazy Report post Posted February 9, 2012 Red Rabbit, I disagree to a certain extent. The Utah Expo is one of the biggest in the West. It has a huge draw from across the country. It is probably one of the best advertised around the country. Many of the high rollers may not attend in person but they do attend by phone or proxy. The result is huge dollars for tags. All money accrued for the auction of Arizona tags comes back to the Game and Fish Department. To keep all of the Arizona tags here for auction in state would likely result in smaller bids reducing the funds to the Department. Do I want to see all Arizona tags auctioned at events outside of Arizona? Absolutely not. Organizations that have large banquets need premium tags in order get people in the door for the entertainment of watching the bidding go crazy. The organization can then auction or raffle many other items to garner funds for their organiation. Advertising and reputation are the key. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bonuspointjohn Report post Posted February 10, 2012 I can't see why having the tag auctioned in UT will make a difference. Those with the money wanting to hunt the strip will likely have their guide/outfitter pre-chosen and have their bids submitted over the phone. If the tag auction is held at a smaller AZ banquet, it should conceivably go for the same amount as only the same select few are making the final bids. jmo. You are correct Red... The tags that are auctioned over the past few years draw virtually the same monies. There are very few buyers out there who really want that Strip tag. The buyers seldom come to the functions and appoint their outfitter or guides to bid. Sometimes they are on the phone, or they have a "limit" that they do not want to go over. I know some of the bidders and the pool is very limited. Most now know that you have to cough up at least close to $200,000 to be in the game. The Commissioners of the past and present have faced some political pressures from a lot of groups to get the tags for their banquet. It is a stimulant to the crowd to hear the numbers reaching closer and closer to that huge number. Again though... All the AZ tags go back to the department in totality. The bidders always know which banquet will be auctioning the tag. It could be auctioned in Springerville and they would bid...BPJ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
