AZLance Report post Posted February 5, 2012 Wait just a minute! I just looked back thru my posts... And I couldn't find one place where I called you or any other people on this form a name? Just cause you don't like my opinion don't hate me... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elkhunter1 Report post Posted February 5, 2012 Wait just a minute! I just looked back thru my posts... And I couldn't find one place where I called you or any other people on this form a name? Just cause you don't like my opinion don't hate me... Maybe not directly but by trying to put me and Azman in the "enviro Wackos" group you have pushed me to perceive this as name calling. If I am wrong then let me admit it and apologize but this issue is going to tear this community apart if we can't get together and discuss this like the passionate hunters we are. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azslim Report post Posted February 5, 2012 "never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down the their level and beat you with experience" 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cramerhunts Report post Posted February 5, 2012 For the past 15 years I have made my living off of and around the mining industry and I would like to continue.....so I cannot see this as being a bad thing. I have personaly seen wildlife continue there existence and even thrive around and in mines just like the future Rosemont mine. All of the talk about ruining the water shed is not really viable as the studies have been done and the permits granted through much debate but it has been determined that the water shed and its affecting areas will not be harmed. Yes mines are an eyesore but in the grand scheme of things I believe that for the amount of jobs and revenue that this will bring into our struggling state it is well worth it. Yes it will change the area that we hunt but just like the wild life I will change and adapt with it. These are just my beliefs and opinions and I do not pretend to speak for anyone but myself and I respect others' beliefs and opionions, I just thought I would share mine. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AZLance Report post Posted February 5, 2012 For the past 15 years I have made my living off of and around the mining industry and I would like to continue.....so I cannot see this as being a bad thing. I have personaly seen wildlife continue there existence and even thrive around and in mines just like the future Rosemont mine. All of the talk about ruining the water shed is not really viable as the studies have been done and the permits granted through much debate but it has been determined that the water shed and its affecting areas will not be harmed. Yes mines are an eyesore but in the grand scheme of things I believe that for the amount of jobs and revenue that this will bring into our struggling state it is well worth it. Yes it will change the area that we hunt but just like the wild life I will change and adapt with it. These are just my beliefs and opinions and I do not pretend to speak for anyone but myself and I respect others' beliefs and opionions, I just thought I would share mine. +1 I too have worked for the mine in Morenci as a sub contractor. The mine in Morenci awarded us contracts for several years and allowed us to hire dozens of people to complete the work. We also bought alot of materials that helped other businesses hire people. So these jobs numbers that people keep spouting off, are not counting all of the jobs that will be created that support the mine. And to add to the jobs we created due to the mine, all of our work was remediation work, which was re-vegetating areas for wild life, adding water catchments for wildlife and creating new riparian habitat. And I know this work paid off, as within a few weeks of our work, the wildlife was back and healthier than before the mine. This work we did was half on the mine property and half on the national forest where the mine had never been. Mining and wildlife can co-exist, look at the units in AZ that already have mining. Unit 27 has one of the largest open pit mines in North America, yet it is one of the most diverse units we have and is one of the most desired units in the state to hunt. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billrquimby Report post Posted February 6, 2012 "So these jobs numbers that people keep spouting off, are not counting all of the jobs that will be created that support the mine." This was what I was trying to say in another thread when I talked about direct and indirect benefits from a single new job. Rosemont estimates that the mine will create about 400 new jobs (direct) and about 1,700 new jobs in peripheral industries. 2,100 new jobs is not insignificant. At an average of just $47,000 per year per worker, that's close to $100 million a year in new revenue that this mine will add to southern Arizona's economy. But it doesn't stop there. All that extra money circulating will create jobs for dentists, carpenters, auto mechanics, shoe repairmen, grocery store clerks, insurance salesmen, school teachers, home builders and virtually everyone else. I will hate to see the scars on that side of the Santa Ritas (I have hunted that area since 1953), but it is a necessary evil. Growth and change are inevitable without some type of population control -- and no one wants to see that. My birth certificate says I was born "on September 30, 1936, in Pima County, about three miles east of Tucson." The city ended at Campbell then, and the little house where I was born still stands. It is about a block south of Speedway between Country Club and Alvernon. While attending the UA, I shot quail in the foothills above town where I now live, and bowhunted mule deer and javelinas in the Tucson Mountains near where Pima College now is. I could lament that Tucson has spread like cancer for many miles in every direction across this valley during my lifetime, but I also must remind myself that growth and its resulting habitat loss fed me and my family and gave us opportunities enjoyed by very few ordinary citizens around the world. Bill Quimby 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pine Donkey Report post Posted February 6, 2012 Bill, your point is right on, change is inevitable. Change is a continuous process, but it does not always travel in the same direction. Currently the Santa Rita's comprise a vast area of natural habitat with very few residents. Although there has been encroachment from Tucson, Nogales and even Sonoita, very few people live in the actual mountains. Much of what is now seen as untouched natural habitat had actually been enhabited by thousands of people over the last century and a half. The Santa Rita's has been home to many towns that no longer exist. These include Graterville, Placerville, Helvitia, Solerno, Kentucky Camp, and of course Rosemont. The town of Rosemont existed because of the Rosemont mines. This mining operation was extensive and even included a smelter. Below is a short description of Rosemont from ghost towns.com: Rosemont's post office was established September 27, 1894 and discontinued May 31, 1910. Rosemont owed its existence to a copper mine of the same name. The town had about 150 residents and its own smelter. The original owners, L.J. Rose and William B. McCleary, went heavily into debt and sold the mine to the Lewisohn brothers of New York City. They continued to work the mine for years until they played out. Today, nothing is really left of the town. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elkhunter1 Report post Posted February 6, 2012 My contracting business is entirely dependent on copper. I'm just saying that I don't believe anybody can say with any certainty that there won't be any long term damage to the ecosystem, other than the eye sore. I also understand the plan doesn't include remediation of used ground or the tailings. Again my main concern is the damage that can happen to the ground water through depletion and or contamination. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DesertBull Report post Posted February 6, 2012 Everybody wants copper, milk, pork, gasoline, prisons, etc but no one wants what is needed to produce these things (pig farms, mines, prison yards, refineries, mines) in their back yard. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elkhunter1 Report post Posted February 6, 2012 Everybody wants copper, milk, pork, gasoline, prisons, etc but no one wants what is needed to produce these things (pig farms, mines, prison yards, refineries, mines) in their back yard. On some levels you are right, but not "my back yard" If I had the money to purchase land down there I would! Yes that area is spectacular. I am just not ready to "OK" the project when I know they can go further to protect the environment than they are. I'm sure you have heard of "minimal code" When it comes to our "BACK YARD" I want them to go beyond "MINIMAL" Is that to much to require? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DesertBull Report post Posted February 6, 2012 I agree with that also. It's a give and take. All precautions should should be adhered to in order to protect our lands, but we are on the verge of economic collapse and all jobs are needed. Don't let these recent job numbers fool you. It's an election year and the incumbents (be they R or D) always skew the numbers in their favor. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elkhunter1 Report post Posted February 6, 2012 I agree with that also. It's a give and take. All precautions should should be adhered to in order to protect our lands, but we are on the verge of economic collapse and all jobs are needed. Don't let these recent job numbers fool you. It's an election year and the incumbents (be they R or D) always skew the numbers in their favor. I have talked with politicians on other subjects and they always say the numbers are an "educated Guess" and you should take 20% off. When you bid on a job, do you increase 10 to 20 % for materials? I know I do! You need room to move, you never know when you might need that extra piece or job. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Non-Typical Solutions Report post Posted February 8, 2012 Guess that fence didn't do such a good job after all...... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elkhunter1 Report post Posted February 8, 2012 Guess that fence didn't do such a good job after all...... I guess I missed that! Where did the fence come from? Oh is it like the telephone poll that "jumped" out in front of the drunk driver? Ha Ha Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billrquimby Report post Posted February 8, 2012 The naysayers may not agree, but the mine will have a major and positive economic impact on southern Arizona if it is approved. Take 20% off Rosemont's estimate of 2,100 jobs as Elkhunter1 suggests, and that leaves 1,680 jobs directly and indirectly attributable to the proposed mine. With an average family size of 3.4 persons, that many jobs would support a town of about 6,000 residents. According to Wikipedia, that's larger than Benson (pop. 4,934) and only slightly smaller than Willcox (pop. 3,769), Patagonia (pop. 913) and Tombstone (pop. 1,562) combined. As for environmental concerns, I'm glad the mine will have to operate under the rules and standards of the EPA and other agencies. We own a townhouse in Green Valley, and it is comforting to know that our tenants and Green Valley's nearly 17,000 other residents have experienced no problems from living almost on the tailings of a huge open pit mine that has operated under those rules and standards for a very long time. Bill Quimby Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
