AZ Game and Fish

[BigGameHunter]

I was recently denied a left over javelina tag by Game and Fish because I was already issued a left over tag in January. Has this happened to you? If so, by the very definitions of the 2011-12 Arizona Hunting and Trapping Regualtions, the state of Arizona is completely out of compliance to the rules and regulations that govern all hunters. Below is my letter to AZGFD (I apologize the formatting getting mixed up):

 

Gentlemen,

 

I am writing this letter as the result of recent interactions with your office(s) in regards to left over tags; specifically javelina tags. Essentially, I went in to the game and fish office to purchase a left over javelina tag for Season Dates Feb 10 – Feb 19, 2012. However, I was declined a tag by the agent. The reason provided was because I was already issued a tag for Season Dates January 1 – January 26th, 2012.

 

I tried to explain that my January tag was not filled as I was unsuccessful in my hunt. Therefore, I did not achieve my bag limit. The agent advised me that it is not just a matter of filling my tag but also the fact that I was “successful” in getting a tag already. This lead me to review the rules and regulations of Arizona Game and Fish, as outlined in the 2011 – 12 Arizona Hunting and Trapping Regulations.

 

R12-4-104: Application Procedures for Issuance of Hunt Permit-tags by Drawing and Purchase of Bonus Points

 

L. An applicant shall submit only one valid application per genus of wildlife for any calendar year, except:

1. If the bag limit is one per calendar year, an unsuccessful applicant may re-apply for remaining hunt permit-tag in unfilled hunt areas, as specified in the hunt permit-tag application schedule published annually by the Department.

2. For genera that have multiple draws within a single calendar year, an individual who successfully draws a hunt permit-tag during an earlier season may apply for a later season for the same genus if the individual has not taken the bag limit for that genus during a preceding hunt in the same calendar year.

3.If the bag limit is more than one per calendar per year, an individual may apply as specified in the hunt permit-tag application schedule published annually by the Department of remaining hunt permit-tags in unfilled hunt areas.

 

While discussing this specific rule with a supervisor she stated to me that I am prohibited by R12-4-104 L1 because I am not an “unsuccessful applicant” – as she defined an “unsuccessful applicant” is determined as someone who submitted an incomplete application. I agreed completely with her; I am not an “unsuccessful applicant."

 

She then stated that I am prohibited to obtain a tag under R12-4-104 L2 as it’s not a “later season” – as she defined “later season” as summer, winter, fall. I strongly disagree with this definition of “later seasons” as your 2012 Spring Turkey, Javelina, Buffalo, and Bear booklet defines “seasons” by specific date ranges; as opposed to winter, spring, winter, and fall. More importantly, per the 2011-12 Arizona Hunting and Trapping Regulations:

 

A.R.S. 17-101 Definitions

 

13. “Open Season” means the time during which wildlife maybe lawfully taken

 

In my case, and I am sure the case of many hunters, I received a tag for season dates, or time during which wildlife maybe be lawfully taken, January 1 – January 26th and being denied a tag for the “later season”, or time during which wildlife maybe be lawfully taken,February 10th – February 19th. Clearly, I am being denied a tag because of the misinterpretation of the rules as clearly defined by the rules and regulations.

 

Even after pointing this out to your agent I was advised that the “computer” still will not allow the distribution of the tag. Gentlemen, I am asking that someone someone be accountable for resolving this matter. It needs to be addressed and corrected immediately. Your office, agents, and computer systems are completely out of compliance to the very rules and regulations that you govern hunters.

[Coues79]

I was recently denied a left over javelina tag by Game and Fish because I was already issued a left over tag in January. Has this happened to you? If so, by the very definitions of the 2011-12 Arizona Hunting and Trapping Regualtions, the state of Arizona is completely out of compliance to the rules and regulations that govern all hunters. Below is my letter to AZGFD (I apologize the formatting getting mixed up):

 

Gentlemen,

 

I am writing this letter as the result of recent interactions with your office(s) in regards to left over tags; specifically javelina tags. Essentially, I went in to the game and fish office to purchase a left over javelina tag for Season Dates Feb 10 – Feb 19, 2012. However, I was declined a tag by the agent. The reason provided was because I was already issued a tag for Season Dates January 1 – January 26th, 2012.

 

I tried to explain that my January tag was not filled as I was unsuccessful in my hunt. Therefore, I did not achieve my bag limit. The agent advised me that it is not just a matter of filling my tag but also the fact that I was “successful” in getting a tag already. This lead me to review the rules and regulations of Arizona Game and Fish, as outlined in the 2011 – 12 Arizona Hunting and Trapping Regulations.

 

R12-4-104: Application Procedures for Issuance of Hunt Permit-tags by Drawing and Purchase of Bonus Points

 

L. An applicant shall submit only one valid application per genus of wildlife for any calendar year, except:

1. If the bag limit is one per calendar year, an unsuccessful applicant may re-apply for remaining hunt permit-tag in unfilled hunt areas, as specified in the hunt permit-tag application schedule published annually by the Department.

2. For genera that have multiple draws within a single calendar year, an individual who successfully draws a hunt permit-tag during an earlier season may apply for a later season for the same genus if the individual has not taken the bag limit for that genus during a preceding hunt in the same calendar year.

3.If the bag limit is more than one per calendar per year, an individual may apply as specified in the hunt permit-tag application schedule published annually by the Department of remaining hunt permit-tags in unfilled hunt areas.

 

While discussing this specific rule with a supervisor she stated to me that I am prohibited by R12-4-104 L1 because I am not an “unsuccessful applicant” – as she defined an “unsuccessful applicant” is determined as someone who submitted an incomplete application. I agreed completely with her; I am not an “unsuccessful applicant."

 

She then stated that I am prohibited to obtain a tag under R12-4-104 L2 as it’s not a “later season” – as she defined “later season” as summer, winter, fall. I strongly disagree with this definition of “later seasons” as your 2012 Spring Turkey, Javelina, Buffalo, and Bear booklet defines “seasons” by specific date ranges; as opposed to winter, spring, winter, and fall. More importantly, per the 2011-12 Arizona Hunting and Trapping Regulations:

 

A.R.S. 17-101 Definitions

 

13. “Open Season” means the time during which wildlife maybe lawfully taken

 

In my case, and I am sure the case of many hunters, I received a tag for season dates, or time during which wildlife maybe be lawfully taken, January 1 – January 26th and being denied a tag for the “later season”, or time during which wildlife maybe be lawfully taken,February 10th – February 19th. Clearly, I am being denied a tag because of the misinterpretation of the rules as clearly defined by the rules and regulations.

 

Even after pointing this out to your agent I was advised that the “computer” still will not allow the distribution of the tag. Gentlemen, I am asking that someone someone be accountable for resolving this matter. It needs to be addressed and corrected immediately. Your office, agents, and computer systems are completely out of compliance to the very rules and regulations that you govern hunters.

 

2. For genera that have multiple draws within a single calendar year, an individual who successfully draws a hunt permit-tag during an earlier season may apply for a later season for the same genus if the individual has not taken the bag limit for that genus during a preceding hunt in the same calendar year.

 

There are two draws for javelina. One for spring one for fall. These are the multiple draws that occur each year. Since you are trying to get a tag that is a later hunt, that hunt was still part of the spring draw cycle... that's why you're being denied.

 

It's an issue that has been brought up before, especially with the deer seasons and with the amount of leftovers that occur. It makes sense to extend the bag limit to two deer if people are willing to purchase a leftover tag and hunt in that unit along with the unit that they were drawn for, especially since there are tags that never do get purchased. It also makes sense financially to sell the leftovers to create revenue for the dept.

 

If I remember correctly, there is a law that denies this, and the dept. was going to attempt to change the rule but it was not going to be heard at the time because of some deal in the legislature; I don't remember the specifics but it was a thread on here at one time.

[elkaholic]

you are misinterpreting/ understanding the written law- i think she explained it - plain and simple - most would have just said NO

 

 

some people get confused because most of us carry a non -permit tag-- like deer but we cn stiil apply for an aplication/ drawn PERMIT tag .

 

only one permit tag is allowed per spiecies per season - simple ! the otc is also a permit tag - ok

[BigGameHunter]

The regs clearly state "later season" and then the regs define " open seasons" as time during which wildlife maybe lawfully taken - the times are further defined by each genus by calendar days. Justifying the denial by draw cycles, or spring vs summer is completely incorrect.

 

I am not pushing for a change in bag limits - 1 is fine (more would be great). I am stating give everyone the complete opportunity, as defined by the regs, to fill the bag limit.

 

I was recently denied a left over javelina tag by Game and Fish because I was already issued a left over tag in January. Has this happened to you? If so, by the very definitions of the 2011-12 Arizona Hunting and Trapping Regualtions, the state of Arizona is completely out of compliance to the rules and regulations that govern all hunters. Below is my letter to AZGFD (I apologize the formatting getting mixed up):

 

Gentlemen,

 

I am writing this letter as the result of recent interactions with your office(s) in regards to left over tags; specifically javelina tags. Essentially, I went in to the game and fish office to purchase a left over javelina tag for Season Dates Feb 10 – Feb 19, 2012. However, I was declined a tag by the agent. The reason provided was because I was already issued a tag for Season Dates January 1 – January 26th, 2012.

 

I tried to explain that my January tag was not filled as I was unsuccessful in my hunt. Therefore, I did not achieve my bag limit. The agent advised me that it is not just a matter of filling my tag but also the fact that I was “successful” in getting a tag already. This lead me to review the rules and regulations of Arizona Game and Fish, as outlined in the 2011 – 12 Arizona Hunting and Trapping Regulations.

 

R12-4-104: Application Procedures for Issuance of Hunt Permit-tags by Drawing and Purchase of Bonus Points

 

L. An applicant shall submit only one valid application per genus of wildlife for any calendar year, except:

1. If the bag limit is one per calendar year, an unsuccessful applicant may re-apply for remaining hunt permit-tag in unfilled hunt areas, as specified in the hunt permit-tag application schedule published annually by the Department.

2. For genera that have multiple draws within a single calendar year, an individual who successfully draws a hunt permit-tag during an earlier season may apply for a later season for the same genus if the individual has not taken the bag limit for that genus during a preceding hunt in the same calendar year.

3.If the bag limit is more than one per calendar per year, an individual may apply as specified in the hunt permit-tag application schedule published annually by the Department of remaining hunt permit-tags in unfilled hunt areas.

 

While discussing this specific rule with a supervisor she stated to me that I am prohibited by R12-4-104 L1 because I am not an “unsuccessful applicant” – as she defined an “unsuccessful applicant” is determined as someone who submitted an incomplete application. I agreed completely with her; I am not an “unsuccessful applicant."

 

She then stated that I am prohibited to obtain a tag under R12-4-104 L2 as it’s not a “later season” – as she defined “later season” as summer, winter, fall. I strongly disagree with this definition of “later seasons” as your 2012 Spring Turkey, Javelina, Buffalo, and Bear booklet defines “seasons” by specific date ranges; as opposed to winter, spring, winter, and fall. More importantly, per the 2011-12 Arizona Hunting and Trapping Regulations:

 

A.R.S. 17-101 Definitions

 

13. “Open Season” means the time during which wildlife maybe lawfully taken

 

In my case, and I am sure the case of many hunters, I received a tag for season dates, or time during which wildlife maybe be lawfully taken, January 1 – January 26th and being denied a tag for the “later season”, or time during which wildlife maybe be lawfully taken,February 10th – February 19th. Clearly, I am being denied a tag because of the misinterpretation of the rules as clearly defined by the rules and regulations.

 

Even after pointing this out to your agent I was advised that the “computer” still will not allow the distribution of the tag. Gentlemen, I am asking that someone someone be accountable for resolving this matter. It needs to be addressed and corrected immediately. Your office, agents, and computer systems are completely out of compliance to the very rules and regulations that you govern hunters.

 

2. For genera that have multiple draws within a single calendar year, an individual who successfully draws a hunt permit-tag during an earlier season may apply for a later season for the same genus if the individual has not taken the bag limit for that genus during a preceding hunt in the same calendar year.

 

There are two draws for javelina. One for spring one for fall. These are the multiple draws that occur each year. Since you are trying to get a tag that is a later hunt, that hunt was still part of the spring draw cycle... that's why you're being denied.

 

It's an issue that has been brought up before, especially with the deer seasons and with the amount of leftovers that occur. It makes sense to extend the bag limit to two deer if people are willing to purchase a leftover tag and hunt in that unit along with the unit that they were drawn for, especially since there are tags that never do get purchased. It also makes sense financially to sell the leftovers to create revenue for the dept.

 

If I remember correctly, there is a law that denies this, and the dept. was going to attempt to change the rule but it was not going to be heard at the time because of some deal in the legislature; I don't remember the specifics but it was a thread on here at one time.

[BigGameHunter]

Fair enough, open the reg books, and read the definition of "open season". I am still only possessing one permit tag per season - I agree it's simple. I am strictly interpretting what they have provided us via the regs as a season.

 

The fact is - a hunter is still only allowed 1 per bag limit. Why stop someone from purchasing multiple tags so that they can have the opportunity to harvest 1 animal; their bag limit?

 

you are misinterpreting/ understanding the written law- i think she explained it - plain and simple - most would have just said NO

 

 

some people get confused because most of us carry a non -permit tag-- like deer but we cn stiil apply for an aplication/ drawn PERMIT tag .

 

only one permit tag is allowed per spiecies per season - simple ! the otc is also a permit tag - ok

[soazarcher]

Can you not have an archery deer tag and a rifle deer tag in the same year?

[willhunt4coues]

only one permit tag is allowed per spiecies per season - simple ! the otc is also a permit tag - ok

 

So if I have a Rifle december deer tag I can not buy an over the counter archery deer tag in December

[elkaholic]

permit tags and non-permit tags -- they do have an archery deer tag it is a non-permit tag you can buy it at wally world and hunt during the non-draw season

 

a permit tag is only thru g&fish - the same with permit second drawing or after that you can just go buy left-over OTC permit tags. **** you can only get one permit tag= per species= per year ***

 

there are a lot on non- permit tags for a lot of spieces which allow you to hunt other than the drawn permit seasons !

 

 

 

question - how many yrs ya been doing this ?

[abovethecoues]

Can you not have an archery deer tag and a rifle deer tag in the same year?

 

 

 

+1

[Tines]

This is the way I understand it:

 

-There are two types of PERMIT tags: Those that are leftover and those that are not. But they're both PERMIT tags (i.e. draw tags). The leftover tags are still PERMIT tags. So because some might be "leftover", people confuse these with some OTC and Non-permit tags.

 

A NON-permit tag is just that- a tag that isn't associated to a draw.

 

But like I said earlier, An OTC tag can be both. But only ONE draw permit per genus, per calendar year (regardless of filling the initial tag) can be issued to a hunter.

 

To change this, they would just need to change them from "leftover tags" to "NON-permit tags".

 

Just as you explained, I tried to do the same thing a few years ago. I thought it was ridiculous that I couldn't purchase a leftover HAM tag when I didn't fill my archery Javelina tag. I was given the same response as you were given. That said, I agree with most of what you're saying. I don't care to shoot more than 1 a year, I just wanted "more opportunity" if I didn't fill my initial tag. And it made sense from a financial perspective for the G and F to allow it. They feel differently. I just think you're getting caught up interpretations. Which, in the end, doesn't matter what how WE interpret them.

 

I actually thought it would be a great idea, if there were leftover permits, you could turn in your un-used permit and purchase a "leftover" for the next hunt. But ONLY after you turned it in could you purchase a leftover. I belive this can be regulated and implemented to reduce multiple animals "tagged" a year illegally with some minor thought behind it as well. G and F would excede their current revenue from tags and the allotted permits wouldn't have to change.

[gotcoues]

I thought they were going to address this so you were going to be able "try again".

Example: OTC archery deer tag and Oct rifle tag, if unsuccessful on your hunt (s) you could purchase left over tag for 36A Nov rifle. As long as the bag limit is still only one, they should keep selling the tags.

 

I do not think it's fair to rifle deer hunters to only be able to hunt one week (excluding Dec tags), if they do not tag out, they should have access to purchase a left over and try again

 

I hope they change this rule asap.

[gotcoues]

Tine's,

I like your idea of turning in unused tag, but I don't think honesty is the issue.

 

As long as you didn't use a butcher or taxidermist, a dishonest person could easily put a tag on two or even three deer a year. They replace tags no questions asked for a small few if you say you lost it.

[Tines]

Tine's,

I like your idea of turning in unused tag, but I don't think honesty is the issue.

 

carry around an archery tag as well. As long as you didn't use a butcher or taxidermist, a dishonest person could easily put a tag on two or even three deer a year. They replace tags no questions asked for a small few if you say you lost it.

 

I think honesty IS the issue. As the current system goes forward, you can basically do exactly what you mentioned and STILL carry around an archery tag. But since the simple definition of honesty is butchered so badly these days, there are and SHOULD be certain black and whites to curtail these things.

 

When I mentioned "minor thought" going into this, I was implying that the G and F would give it more thought than "even if it's your fifth duplicate tag, you're eligable for a leftover!". Those at the game and Fish know of the loop-holes in the current system. Do they get 100% participation in the current mandatory archery harvest reporting? No they don't. But they factor that in and anyone who chooses NOT to report their harvest has one more thing to "worry" about other than their conscience.

 

There are some BRILLIANT minds in the hunting community. It would do the dept some serious good to actually consider some of the basic ideas that are started around a campfire or in the cab of a pickup truck full of "rednecks".

[ThomC]

There are a lot of loopholes and loophole jumpers in life. You need to go to a Judge to interpret the intent of the rule/law.

 

I dont know why you want to work so hard to get another pig tag. Take a kid hunting if you want to go again. It will be more fun.

[Elkhunter1]

There are a lot of loopholes and loophole jumpers in life. You need to go to a Judge to interpret the intent of the rule/law.

 

I dont know why you want to work so hard to get another pig tag. Take a kid hunting if you want to go again. It will be more fun.

 

 

Most of the interpretation of laws is under "what a reasonable person would interpret the law to be" at least in all the cases I've been involved in. Just my 1/2 cent worth.