Acessing Public Land through Private Property

[DesertBull]

So if I own property on both sides of the I-10 I can gate it? Sweet.

[Snapshot]

So if I own property on both sides of the I-10 I can gate it? Sweet.

 

County roads,forest roads, or highways are not the factor,as the legal access easment is already there. I believe that one contiguous chunk of land, without public access through it to other available areas, is the point in question.

[.270]

private land access has been an issue since biblical times. if one guy owns one acre somebody is gonna complain about it. Lark.

[Snapshot]

I can give yo some firsthand experience with easments,laws,and loopholes.

Not many years ago I owned and lived on some property in Sahuarita. A couple of our esteemed CWT members also live in this area, and we have had CWT parties at our homes.

In 2004-2005 I was President and secretary of our 300 member property owners association. I have no love for these associations, but I was talked into running for board of directors. This association was private property, and bounded on the east by south Kold road, and Wilmot on the west. All dirt roads, maintained by money from our membership. Some people bought property on the east side of Kolb road, outside of our association. They were using Kolb road as ingress/egress to their properties. We tried to deny them access to our private roads. They sued our association for access rights, even though they were not members or did they contribute anything to the maintenance of these roads.

 

We lost the suit because of questionable wording on the original Platt map, that labeled these roads as private, but with public access. We could have gone on fighting it, but the membership was getting upset with the amount of money being spent on litigation.

 

The Plaintiffs are now using these roads for free, while the association goes on maintaining these roads at considerable cost. The courts used this situation to set up precedent, even though this is clearly private property.

 

Even though questionable law prevailed, it is not right, no matter how you look at it.

 

Thats how it would feel to an private land owner that tried to have access rights forced on them for property that they bought and paid for.

[Snapshot]

private land access has been an issue since biblical times. if one guy owns one acre somebody is gonna complain about it. Lark.

 

Don't I know it! You were friends with Moses?

[Str8Shot]

I find it funny how people start raising heck without reading everything that is being stated or asked... This question is in regards to existing roadways that have historically been used as the primary ingress and egress that all the sudden get gated up... This is not about having free run of private property and all property is subject to the laws and rights of easements. There are already laws in place that seem to be pretty clear as to if a locked gate on a road is legal or not and it would seem there a fair share that are may not be. This is not talking about private roads that are maintained by private ownership. The laws also would not seem to limit access to maintained roads but primitive roads as well, if the history of ingress and egress is validated. All I can say is from what I have found out from a couple real estate lawyers so far is" Fellow hunters Use your BLM maps ... look at the road designations and the private parcels... If they are shown as county,state,public,or federal and you run into a lock gate by a private individual the locked gate would be in violation of the law. Using BLM maps you can also request the information on the parcel that you can see what the actual deeds state, in many cases of state trust land and federal land that has been sold where roadways exist the roads legally remain as an easement for the state or federal government. IF you could drive through the private property using a public road 40 years ago, 30, years ago, 20, 10 and then find yourself locked out to accessing the public land in your future the laws of easement and right of way are there to help open gates, just takes a few motivated individuals to make sure we don't start seeing locked gates at the entry points of most of our Public Hunting Land.

[Str8Shot]

I can give yo some firsthand experience with easments,laws,and loopholes.

Not many years ago I owned and lived on some property in Sahuarita. A couple of our esteemed CWT members also live in this area, and we have had CWT parties at our homes.

In 2004-2005 I was President and secretary of our 300 member property owners association. I have no love for these associations, but I was talked into running for board of directors. This association was private property, and bounded on the east by south Kold road, and Wilmot on the west. All dirt roads, maintained by money from our membership. Some people bought property on the east side of Kolb road, outside of our association. They were using Kolb road as ingress/egress to their properties. We tried to deny them access to our private roads. They sued our association for access rights, even though they were not members or did they contribute anything to the maintenance of these roads.

 

We lost the suit because of questionable wording on the original Platt map, that labeled these roads as private, but with public access. We could have gone on fighting it, but the membership was getting upset with the amount of money being spent on litigation.

 

The Plaintiffs are now using these roads for free, while the association goes on maintaining these roads at considerable cost. The courts used this situation to set up precedent, even though this is clearly private property.

 

Even though questionable law prevailed, it is not right, no matter how you look at it.

 

Thats how it would feel to an private land owner that tried to have access rights forced on them for property that they bought and paid for.

That is how the laws work and the courts were right. I am not talking about you buy 100 acres and build a road to your land and continue out the back of the property ... I am talking roads that have long been there and used by many generations getting gates locked keeping people from accessing.... Right of way and easements do not change ( without courts) if someone buys a ranch that is 150 years old 5 years ago and the previous owners gave ingress and egress to public land the right of ingress and egress is expressed and would be upheld in the courts. Again we are talking roads that have given access for many years not private drives ( well some have become that)

[Snapshot]

I can give yo some firsthand experience with easments,laws,and loopholes.

Not many years ago I owned and lived on some property in Sahuarita. A couple of our esteemed CWT members also live in this area, and we have had CWT parties at our homes.

In 2004-2005 I was President and secretary of our 300 member property owners association. I have no love for these associations, but I was talked into running for board of directors. This association was private property, and bounded on the east by south Kold road, and Wilmot on the west. All dirt roads, maintained by money from our membership. Some people bought property on the east side of Kolb road, outside of our association. They were using Kolb road as ingress/egress to their properties. We tried to deny them access to our private roads. They sued our association for access rights, even though they were not members or did they contribute anything to the maintenance of these roads.

 

We lost the suit because of questionable wording on the original Platt map, that labeled these roads as private, but with public access. We could have gone on fighting it, but the membership was getting upset with the amount of money being spent on litigation.

 

The Plaintiffs are now using these roads for free, while the association goes on maintaining these roads at considerable cost. The courts used this situation to set up precedent, even though this is clearly private property.

 

Even though questionable law prevailed, it is not right, no matter how you look at it.

 

Thats how it would feel to an private land owner that tried to have access rights forced on them for property that they bought and paid for.

That is how the laws work and the courts were right. I am not talking about you buy 100 acres and build a road to your land and continue out the back of the property ... I am talking roads that have long been there and used by many generations getting gates locked keeping people from accessing.... Right of way and easements do not change ( without courts) if someone buys a ranch that is 150 years old 5 years ago and the previous owners gave ingress and egress to public land the right of ingress and egress is expressed and would be upheld in the courts. Again we are talking roads that have given access for many years not private drives ( well some have become that)

 

The courts found a tiny loophole and exploited it to the benefit of the legal system. They were not right, however, they did prevail.Even our attorney told us we got screwed by the court. I am not a sore loser by any means, but the law is not always right. The roads in this area where built by owners of private property, on private property, they were not built by the county, or maintained by the county.

 

I agree that locking gates that has been public access may be wrong, but in some cases, maybe not entirely illegal? There have been many battles over the years of ranchers and landowners locking gates when many they did not have the right to do so. Look at the big fiasco up in Aravaipa canyon?

 

If someone recently purchased a ranch where the previous owner had granted access in the past, the new owner would be well within their legal rights to deny access if it was not a recorded easement. However, allowing public access over time probably creates an access precedent in the eyes of the law, just as it did for us.

 

Like you said, easements and access would have to be researched. Fortunately, I do not have to worry about access where I hunt. But in the past I have found locked gates on forest land that were put there by forest service people, or maybe other hunters, as it was in a very remote place.?

[.270]

a few years ago one of our former esteemed state legislators bought a piece of dirt behind the usery pass rifle range. that land was basically landlocked by private and public land. don't remember all the details, but he was trying to get access across the gun range to get to his place so he could develop it and they said no so he tried a couple other fast ones that also failed. besides, who would want to live downrange of a buncha guys shooting rifles? well, he retired and some of his buddy legislators as a retirement present put a little rider on some bill that basically shut down usery so he could put a road into his property. well anyway, it pissed a lotta folks off real bad it got kicked out real quick, sorta like sb2070. i can't remember what the real particulars were, but it was a really hot topic ther for awhile. but it's like the folks that buy a house next to a dairy and then complain about the smell. this guy wanted to build houses downrange of a rifle range, so naturally the rifle range, and all the service it provided had to go. anytime lawyers and law makers get involved things get screwed up real bad. Lark.

[azgutpile]

I can give yo some firsthand experience with easments,laws,and loopholes.

Not many years ago I owned and lived on some property in Sahuarita. A couple of our esteemed CWT members also live in this area, and we have had CWT parties at our homes.

In 2004-2005 I was President and secretary of our 300 member property owners association. I have no love for these associations, but I was talked into running for board of directors. This association was private property, and bounded on the east by south Kold road, and Wilmot on the west. All dirt roads, maintained by money from our membership. Some people bought property on the east side of Kolb road, outside of our association. They were using Kolb road as ingress/egress to their properties. We tried to deny them access to our private roads. They sued our association for access rights, even though they were not members or did they contribute anything to the maintenance of these roads.

 

We lost the suit because of questionable wording on the original Platt map, that labeled these roads as private, but with public access. We could have gone on fighting it, but the membership was getting upset with the amount of money being spent on litigation.

 

The Plaintiffs are now using these roads for free, while the association goes on maintaining these roads at considerable cost. The courts used this situation to set up precedent, even though this is clearly private property.

 

Even though questionable law prevailed, it is not right, no matter how you look at it.

 

Thats how it would feel to an private land owner that tried to have access rights forced on them for property that they bought and paid for.

That is how the laws work and the courts were right. I am not talking about you buy 100 acres and build a road to your land and continue out the back of the property ... I am talking roads that have long been there and used by many generations getting gates locked keeping people from accessing.... Right of way and easements do not change ( without courts) if someone buys a ranch that is 150 years old 5 years ago and the previous owners gave ingress and egress to public land the right of ingress and egress is expressed and would be upheld in the courts. Again we are talking roads that have given access for many years not private drives ( well some have become that)

 

The courts found a tiny loophole and exploited it to the benefit of the legal system. They were not right, however, they did prevail.Even our attorney told us we got screwed by the court. I am not a sore loser by any means, but the law is not always right. The roads in this area where built by owners of private property, on private property, they were not built by the county, or maintained by the county.

 

I agree that locking gates that has been public access may be wrong, but in some cases, maybe not entirely illegal? There have been many battles over the years of ranchers and landowners locking gates when many they did not have the right to do so. Look at the big fiasco up in Aravaipa canyon?

 

If someone recently purchased a ranch where the previous owner had granted access in the past, the new owner would be well within their legal rights to deny access if it was not a recorded easement. However, allowing public access over time probably creates an access precedent in the eyes of the law, just as it did for us.

 

Like you said, easements and access would have to be researched. Fortunately, I do not have to worry about access where I hunt. But in the past I have found locked gates on forest land that were put there by forest service people, or maybe other hunters, as it was in a very remote place.?

 

If the adjacent property owner's property would have become landlock after you locked your gate, they can file a suit for an easment. This is done fairly offen and they would of won either way. If they were not landlocked then they probably won by the loophole.

 

"If someone recently purchased a ranch where the previous owner had granted access in the past, the new owner would be well within their legal rights to deny access if it was not a recorded easement. However, allowing public access over time probably creates an access precedent in the eyes of the law, just as it did for us." In this case, I would think they could file for a perscriptive easement. The question is , who is going to file for it?

[JLW]

do the gates where you have to sign in and out like sportsman gates not work well?

Like to know who is coming and going? Does that even cut down on the yayhoos... sign shooters fence cuttin cattle killin or shootin horses at cows? Haha!

 

james

[billrquimby]

do the gates where you have to sign in and out like sportsman gates not work well?

Like to know who is coming and going? Does that even cut down on the yayhoos... sign shooters fence cuttin cattle killin or shootin horses at cows? Haha!

 

james

 

The question should be, why must we be forced to sign a rancher's logbook before entering land owned by the state of Arizona? It was decided long ago that hunters and anglers are granted a right to hunt and fish on state land when we buy licenses.

 

The three instances I know of where hunters must sign logbooks before entering state land in southern Arizona resulted from AZGFD negotiating with lessees who already had locked gates or erected fences without gates across existing roads on state land, forcing hunters to drive through their corrals or yards on private land.

 

One of those roads had been paved by Pima County just a couple of years earlier.

 

I asked the lessee of that place to show me the vandalism and damage that had caused him to block historic access routes, and I wound up spending a half day with him and Tom Spalding (then AZGFD regional director in Tucson). The rancher was certain that hunters were not allowed to shoot within one quarter of a mile from a pond on state land. He also was convinced hunters had purposely destroyed one of his windmills.

 

Spalding and I picked up some greasy nuts and washers around the windmill -- proof, according to the rancher, that hunters had tried to dismantle it. Spalding sent those nuts to a crime lab, and its report showed that a wrench had been used only to tighten the nuts. There was no sign of a wrench turning any of those nuts counter-clockwise. They were greasy because someone had put too much oil in the mill's case, which leaked and loosened the nuts and caused a vane to be thrown off. Running off balance in a high wind eventually bent the top part of the tower and tore off all its vanes.

 

In five or six hours of driving around the place, the only littering the rancher was able to show us were perhaps 50-60 empty shotgun shells scattered around two ponds. About half of those shells were several years old. We did drive by an arroyo on state land where he and his workers had been dumping their garbage over many years. Don't know if it was on state land, but it was downright unsightly.

 

The rancher refused to believe the crime lab's report that Spalding gave him later. In his mind, hunters destroyed his windmill.

 

Bill Quimby

[Coach]

Good info Bill, as always. This subject will always be a contentious one in AZ. I have no issue with private land-owners protecting their property, but in so many cases, a publicly maintained road leads both in and out of private property. I just can’t see any justification for any land owner to block public access on publicly maintained roads to public land.

 

It’s just common sense that public land belongs to the public. But a very small, but vocal group seem to think that because they own a little chunk of land, that everything beyond their legal boundaries is somehow an extension of their land, and they feel entitled to lock out access to the rest of us who pay for their road maintenance.

 

I think this issue is going to get a lot more attention in the next few years, and the majority of folks won’t be very sympathetic when new roads are dozed right around these ranches and the county no longer maintains the locked out areas.

 

I sure hope that is how it plays out, because one of the truly great things about Arizona is the huge amount of public land that should be available to every tax-paying citizen of our state.

[Str8Shot]

Good info Bill, as always. This subject will always be a contentious one in AZ. I have no issue with private land-owners protecting their property, but in so many cases, a publicly maintained road leads both in and out of private property. I just can’t see any justification for any land owner to block public access on publicly maintained roads to public land.

 

It’s just common sense that public land belongs to the public. But a very small, but vocal group seem to think that because they own a little chunk of land, that everything beyond their legal boundaries is somehow an extension of their land, and they feel entitled to lock out access to the rest of us who pay for their road maintenance.

 

I think this issue is going to get a lot more attention in the next few years, and the majority of folks won’t be very sympathetic when new roads are dozed right around these ranches and the county no longer maintains the locked out areas.

 

I sure hope that is how it plays out, because one of the truly great things about Arizona is the huge amount of public land that should be available to every tax-paying citizen of our state.

 

+1

[Coues79]

Good info Bill, as always. This subject will always be a contentious one in AZ. I have no issue with private land-owners protecting their property, but in so many cases, a publicly maintained road leads both in and out of private property. I just can’t see any justification for any land owner to block public access on publicly maintained roads to public land.

 

It’s just common sense that public land belongs to the public. But a very small, but vocal group seem to think that because they own a little chunk of land, that everything beyond their legal boundaries is somehow an extension of their land, and they feel entitled to lock out access to the rest of us who pay for their road maintenance.

 

I think this issue is going to get a lot more attention in the next few years, and the majority of folks won’t be very sympathetic when new roads are dozed right around these ranches and the county no longer maintains the locked out areas.

 

I sure hope that is how it plays out, because one of the truly great things about Arizona is the huge amount of public land that should be available to every tax-paying citizen of our state.

 

It sure would be nice to have roads built around them but I just don't think it's gonna happen. Look at all the pressure to close roads on usfs land. Active engagement with the ranchers to keep access roads open is going to have to be a top priority.