HB 2072 Sale of big game tags

[elkaholic]

DB sorry about that yes. i was wrong.. BUT how much money does SFW have to gain on this bill if it gets passed???

J

dont know about money but this pretty much summs it up as far as swf is concernerd

 

copied from another site dicussion ;;

 

Also, anyone that thinks the AZ SFW offspring is not marching to Don's tunes is not paying attention. UT SFW provides the seed money and the playbook for how to finance your non-profit using proceeds from auction/lottery of the public's primo big game tags.

 

The SFW playbook is simple enough. Define the enemy as overwhelming and explain the old way of having Joe SixPack finance battles with the enemy and restore/expand the herds does not work. Often, the F&G is unable (or is illegal) to take on the political fight. Budgets for animals gets put near the back of the line after prisons, schools, etc.

 

This new approach takes big money. No one is handing out big money on the street corner. Big Game tags, however, are a license to print money with a little creative hocus pocus. Primo tags are worth more to Richie Rich than the face value the state collects when awards the same tag through a lottery.

 

Set up local chapters but do not give them democracy. They serve at your pleasure and they do not vote on policy nor the leadership at HQ.

 

Do not ask for just any tags when is time. Get the tags from the non-resident allotment (you know, those suckers can not vote a politician out of office) so the politician is creating surplus money without passing a tax or cutting anyone else's departmental budget. Residents tend to smile when the non-resident hunter gets the shapt. Is silly since we are all non-residents in every state but one.

 

Of course, Joe SixPack will now have fewer tags in the lottery but just leaving a couple of sheep tags in the lottery is enough to keep Joe applying.

 

Set up the expo. Award subcontracts to allies and those you want to shut up that are questioning the actions. Folks are quick to figure out which side of the bread slice is buttered.

 

Outfitters love the idea Richie Rich got a tag that last year went to Joe SixPack. Richie hires an outfitter. Outfitter likes this. Donations are made to the organization.

 

You have big money now the expo is underway. Maybe get a couple of big donors to chip in to your "seed money" to really get the ball rolling.

 

What if the herds do not grow. Say the deer herds in Utah. No problem. You mumble a bit and keep your tags. What if the herd grow. Say the elk in Utah. Well, then, time to fire up the PR machine!

 

Start spreading favors at the state capitol building. Grow your influence over how budgets are set for F&G. This growing influence shuts up the leadership bureacrats at F&G. Get your slate of commissioners on the Wildlife Board.

 

You can now push through legislation that you write and hand off to your pet senator. The wildlife board will not raise a stink. The F&G will not publicly raise a stink. Easy breezy.

 

Next, create tons of transferable landowner tags. The outfitters will grease the skids for that tactic. Got to have even more tags for Richie Rich so he can hire outfitters at top dollar.

 

The above playbook is brilliant. Most of us could be handed the playbook and screw it up 99 out of 100 attempts, though.

 

The concept of a new breed of organization that can get into messy political fights on behalf of Joe SixPack and state F&G is worthwhile, in my opinion.

 

The execution of the playbook has become very, very messy. Trust has been broken. Promises were quickly made during the power-building phase but slowly delivered upon. Who can forget the delay in financial reporting and Expo tag odds?

 

Most of us agree SFW has shot itself and its offspring in the foot.

[Snapshot]

Almst a mirror image of the Large Corporation playbook on "how to screw over consumers"

[bonuspointjohn]

DB sorry about that yes. i was wrong.. BUT how much money does SFW have to gain on this bill if it gets passed???

J

dont know about money but this pretty much summs it up as far as swf is concernerd

 

copied from another site dicussion ;;

 

Also, anyone that thinks the AZ SFW offspring is not marching to Don's tunes is not paying attention. UT SFW provides the seed money and the playbook for how to finance your non-profit using proceeds from auction/lottery of the public's primo big game tags.

 

The SFW playbook is simple enough. Define the enemy as overwhelming and explain the old way of having Joe SixPack finance battles with the enemy and restore/expand the herds does not work. Often, the F&G is unable (or is illegal) to take on the political fight. Budgets for animals gets put near the back of the line after prisons, schools, etc.

 

This new approach takes big money. No one is handing out big money on the street corner. Big Game tags, however, are a license to print money with a little creative hocus pocus. Primo tags are worth more to Richie Rich than the face value the state collects when awards the same tag through a lottery.

 

Set up local chapters but do not give them democracy. They serve at your pleasure and they do not vote on policy nor the leadership at HQ.

 

Do not ask for just any tags when is time. Get the tags from the non-resident allotment (you know, those suckers can not vote a politician out of office) so the politician is creating surplus money without passing a tax or cutting anyone else's departmental budget. Residents tend to smile when the non-resident hunter gets the shapt. Is silly since we are all non-residents in every state but one.

 

Of course, Joe SixPack will now have fewer tags in the lottery but just leaving a couple of sheep tags in the lottery is enough to keep Joe applying.

 

Set up the expo. Award subcontracts to allies and those you want to shut up that are questioning the actions. Folks are quick to figure out which side of the bread slice is buttered.

 

Outfitters love the idea Richie Rich got a tag that last year went to Joe SixPack. Richie hires an outfitter. Outfitter likes this. Donations are made to the organization.

 

You have big money now the expo is underway. Maybe get a couple of big donors to chip in to your "seed money" to really get the ball rolling.

 

What if the herds do not grow. Say the deer herds in Utah. No problem. You mumble a bit and keep your tags. What if the herd grow. Say the elk in Utah. Well, then, time to fire up the PR machine!

 

Start spreading favors at the state capitol building. Grow your influence over how budgets are set for F&G. This growing influence shuts up the leadership bureacrats at F&G. Get your slate of commissioners on the Wildlife Board.

 

You can now push through legislation that you write and hand off to your pet senator. The wildlife board will not raise a stink. The F&G will not publicly raise a stink. Easy breezy.

 

Next, create tons of transferable landowner tags. The outfitters will grease the skids for that tactic. Got to have even more tags for Richie Rich so he can hire outfitters at top dollar.

 

The above playbook is brilliant. Most of us could be handed the playbook and screw it up 99 out of 100 attempts, though.

 

The concept of a new breed of organization that can get into messy political fights on behalf of Joe SixPack and state F&G is worthwhile, in my opinion.

 

The execution of the playbook has become very, very messy. Trust has been broken. Promises were quickly made during the power-building phase but slowly delivered upon. Who can forget the delay in financial reporting and Expo tag odds?

 

Most of us agree SFW has shot itself and its offspring in the foot.

Surprised to see some of your comments. The AZGFD does not get funded by the general public. Never has, maybe some day will. So the inference that they get in line behind schools and prisons is pretty far off base. The public of Arizona does not pay a dime to support wildlife in AZ. Hunters, Fisherman, taxes on hunting items etc. have been the source of $$. The Indian Gaming money is also part of the parcel, but that is directed to traditionally non game species...BPJ

[billrquimby]

"Surprised to see some of your comments. The AZGFD does not get funded by the general public. Never has, maybe some day will. So the inference that they get in line behind schools and prisons is pretty far off base. The public of Arizona does not pay a dime to support wildlife in AZ. Hunters, Fisherman, taxes on hunting items etc. have been the source of $$. The Indian Gaming money is also part of the parcel, but that is directed to traditionally non game species...BPJ "

 

In addition to gaming money, which comes from the general public and includes the Arizona lottery, there also is money from voluntary contributions for wildlife on our state income tax forms. I haven't followed what it amounts to today, but AZGFD funds earmarked for non-game wildlife species were never insignificant.

 

What bothers me about this now-dead (thank God) bill is that it could have been a big step toward "creative" fish and wildlife management by the Arizona Legislature, such as happens in too many states. Until fairly recently, our Legislature generally left such things to the commission/department process, a process that requires transparency and public participation and comment.

 

As I've said before, sportsmen and sportsmen's organizations can be our own worst enemies. The more dedicated a hunter or fisherman might be, the more he/she wants to meddle because he/she "knows" better than anyone else what is needed. That seems to be what happened here.

 

Bill Quimby

[40-year-AZ-hunter]

BPJ,

 

When did you delete your statement of Jan 14 that you were making your last post in this thread?

[Comm1]

Yes Bonus Point John Kolezar I am recently retired Chairman of the Commission Robbie Woodhouse. In your reply on Jan.18 to my post you made some statements that I need to reply to with the correct information for the benefit of all who have been involved in opposing 2072. The first being no one on Jan. 18 other than you had said the bill was dead, that is anyone with any official status namely Rep. Weires. BPJ were you authorized by Rep. Weires to speak on his behalf? I doubt that to be true! I believe from your post you think that George Reiners from YVRGC came begging for the help of AZSFW!! NOT true at all! He did go to AZSFW to find out why they were not doing anything to promote Prop. 109. As a representative for our club he needed to know why SFW was not speaking for the sportsman and the Yuma club because after all is that not why clubs all over Arizona were sending money to SFW to stand up and represent them on issues??? Mr. Reiners had at that point already designed and had printed bumper stickers and buttons promoting 109 at his OWN expense!! Guess what BPJ after Mr. Reiners going to SFW they did make an effort to support 109! The Yuma Club is entering their 76th year and they HAVE lead and accomplished many things both in the field ( water projects) and over all those years many things at the legislature without any assistance from anyone that you have mentioned!!! This Club is made up of dedicated hard working Arizonans who are passionate about wildlife! I am proud to be a member.

 

I am so proud of the sportsmen/women of this state for their loud voice on this ill conceived piece of legislation that others were trying to sneak by and cram down our throats. I was still the Chair of the Commission at the time and had more people contact me than I had received on other issues and they were unanimous in opposing 2072! Not even one person in support! I called a special telephonic Commission meeting and as we all know the vote was 5-0 with a very strong motion of opposition. The people spoke, the Commission heard them and collectively we defeated the bill for the time being. This is the way the system is supposed to work! I am proud that sportsman/women have realized that they were paying a lot of hard earned money to SFW and really had NO idea what was being said or proposed on their behalf. Obviously once they found out what was going on they realized was nothing that represented their best interests! I have seen this happen many times during my term on the Commission. Recently when the Commission was setting new hunt guidelines on Deer we heard a floor change recommended by your organization BPJ the Arizona Deer Association. the folks presenting it told us it was a proposed change created by the executive committee. The ADA change was In fact adopted by the Commission on a 3-2 vote. I believe when the total membership understands this change will mean fewer deer tags in the future they will not be happy. Does your whole membership vote on who is the President? Maybe you should worry if they do! At the same meeting Randy Phillips spoke on behalf of the Arizona Bowhunters Association and made comment on the guideline package but he started out by saying they had polled the membership before speaking!! Way to go Randy you truly represent your members.

 

Lastly and most important to me personally BPJ you have questioned my honesty!!! I believe I have a stellar record of always being honest and telling the truth!! People like you like to say others are not telling the truth when someone does not agree with them. I have nearly 35 years of public service on school boards, agriculture related boards and of course the Commission. I am very proud of my years of service and have always worked hard to serve my constituents. I am proud of accomplishments the Commission has made as a team during my term. We have a good Commision and Department in Arizona that we should all be proud of because they don't only listen to special interest groups but value the I put of the silent majority that spoke loudly these last few days!

[coueshunter]

Robbie, I applaud you for your response. BPJ said many many things and yet doesnt totally have a clear picture of who he is talking to. The web is open to alot of "view" only people. I was a bit offended when he mentioned that most people here on CW havent done a project or went to commission meetings. I remember the USO fiasco and I was there at the meetings with Lark Hubbard (who BPJ bashed) I also sat on the board of ADA for sometime. I know there are alot of people who are on this website and others who may not go to all the conservation group meetings but still have a passion for wildlife and donate money, time etc.... towards that effort without expecting applause. I resented 2072, I resented BPJ saying I didnt understand the big picture and I especially resented Weirs letter explaining how "us average joe's " did not understand the big picture. Well, the big picture would not have been very bright for us regular guys/gals if this bill went through. I think what would help the whole AZ wildlife situation would be ongoing active interaction by the Wildlife groups and their members. As it sits now, there is very little if any survey's, polls, newsletters that go out soliciting input from the members so basically someone else provides "absentee" votes without your knowledge on many many issues. I wonder if BPJ , Weirs and specifically SFW understand what "Big picture" is in their future................... after these past actions I dont see a very nice picture.........Allen Taylor.............

[.270]

poor pbj just can't get a break. he throws BS as hard and fast as he can and folks keep knockin' him over with the facts. too bad we are all too stupid to understand how much good they were doin' us. Lark.

[krp]

I'd like to thank Mr Woodhouse for his response and service on the commission. Also say that the Region 4 WMs and YVRGC are the real deal... though I'm from Mesa and spend very little time in region 4, I did spend days with these guys on a catchment project last year and was impressed with both the WMs and the equipment trailer that YVRGC had supplied. They are probably the top organization in Az for gett'n'er done.

 

Opps, meant region 4, I'm from 6... lol

 

Kent

[Snapshot]

Some of the statements made by particular individuals, bothers me. Just because an Arizona Sportsman may be actively involved in an organization, attends meetings, or volunteers for habitat improvement, does not mean that they have " A bigger say so" as to what should happen with legislation, or the management of our wildlife. Even though I greatly respect,and applaud, those that do volunteer their time and effort, there are thousands of paying sportsman that have an equal voice, regardless of what group, they do, or do not, belong to. One wrong, does not make a right.

 

HB 2072 is totally transparent.It is nothing more than a bill designed to pimp our big game tags to those that are wealthy enough to afford an auction tag, as well as the other issues associated with HB2072.

 

Anybody that wants big game permits, can stand in line with me, and the thousands of other sportsman waiting for our turn to draw one.

[AZLance]

Yes Bonus Point John Kolezar I am recently retired Chairman of the Commission Robbie Woodhouse. In your reply on Jan.18 to my post you made some statements that I need to reply to with the correct information for the benefit of all who have been involved in opposing 2072. The first being no one on Jan. 18 other than you had said the bill was dead, that is anyone with any official status namely Rep. Weires. BPJ were you authorized by Rep. Weires to speak on his behalf? I doubt that to be true! I believe from your post you think that George Reiners from YVRGC came begging for the help of AZSFW!! NOT true at all! He did go to AZSFW to find out why they were not doing anything to promote Prop. 109. As a representative for our club he needed to know why SFW was not speaking for the sportsman and the Yuma club because after all is that not why clubs all over Arizona were sending money to SFW to stand up and represent them on issues??? Mr. Reiners had at that point already designed and had printed bumper stickers and buttons promoting 109 at his OWN expense!! Guess what BPJ after Mr. Reiners going to SFW they did make an effort to support 109! The Yuma Club is entering their 76th year and they HAVE lead and accomplished many things both in the field ( water projects) and over all those years many things at the legislature without any assistance from anyone that you have mentioned!!! This Club is made up of dedicated hard working Arizonans who are passionate about wildlife! I am proud to be a member.

 

I am so proud of the sportsmen/women of this state for their loud voice on this ill conceived piece of legislation that others were trying to sneak by and cram down our throats. I was still the Chair of the Commission at the time and had more people contact me than I had received on other issues and they were unanimous in opposing 2072! Not even one person in support! I called a special telephonic Commission meeting and as we all know the vote was 5-0 with a very strong motion of opposition. The people spoke, the Commission heard them and collectively we defeated the bill for the time being. This is the way the system is supposed to work! I am proud that sportsman/women have realized that they were paying a lot of hard earned money to SFW and really had NO idea what was being said or proposed on their behalf. Obviously once they found out what was going on they realized was nothing that represented their best interests! I have seen this happen many times during my term on the Commission. Recently when the Commission was setting new hunt guidelines on Deer we heard a floor change recommended by your organization BPJ the Arizona Deer Association. the folks presenting it told us it was a proposed change created by the executive committee. The ADA change was In fact adopted by the Commission on a 3-2 vote. I believe when the total membership understands this change will mean fewer deer tags in the future they will not be happy. Does your whole membership vote on who is the President? Maybe you should worry if they do! At the same meeting Randy Phillips spoke on behalf of the Arizona Bowhunters Association and made comment on the guideline package but he started out by saying they had polled the membership before speaking!! Way to go Randy you truly represent your members.

 

Lastly and most important to me personally BPJ you have questioned my honesty!!! I believe I have a stellar record of always being honest and telling the truth!! People like you like to say others are not telling the truth when someone does not agree with them. I have nearly 35 years of public service on school boards, agriculture related boards and of course the Commission. I am very proud of my years of service and have always worked hard to serve my constituents. I am proud of accomplishments the Commission has made as a team during my term. We have a good Commision and Department in Arizona that we should all be proud of because they don't only listen to special interest groups but value the I put of the silent majority that spoke loudly these last few days!

 

Very well said! +1000

[elkaholic]

Still waiting patiently = for anyone of the board/directors of azsfw or azsfwc to come on here and make some kinda statement

 

heard enough from john - so let them speak for themselves - i sure your bp's are adding up nicely

 

since you have so much respect for these people maybe you can convience them to speak for themselves

 

still waiting for that list of member/ directors on the board !

 

 

Thank you Mr. Woodhouse for your imput on this subject - always nice to clear things up that were misspoken! seems to happen often on this topic.

 

what district do you live in anyway ? lol

[AZLance]

BPJ, I see you are reading this topic right now, dont be afraid, jump right in, I got my popcorn ready...

[AZLance]

by the way, what happens when your "Reputation" number goes to -100? Right now you are listed as "Bad" for your reputation, what next?

[archerycrazy]

I've been out of the loop for a week (javalina hunt). As I'm catching up, I notice that BPJ mentioned me by name (George Reiners) claiming that he was at a meeting with AZSFW and pled for their support of Prop 109.

 

Here are the facts: When the bill that finally resulted in Prop 109 passed, I immeadiately notified AZSFW's lobbyist. She reminded me of the need to submit letters in support of the Proposition. That evening, I wrote my letter of support and sent it to the Secretary of State. I then went to work assisting others from YVRGC in developing our club's letter of support.

 

Considering the fact that the AZSFW lobbyist recommended letters of support, I believe that I reasonably expected that she would be in contact with all member organinzations and request letters of support. I watched and waited. Nothing was submitted until the last few days beofre the deadline.

 

At great personal expense, I first designed and ordered several thousand "I support the right to Hunt and Fish" campaign buttons followed by Prop 109 bumper stickers. Samples of both were provided to the NRA.

 

At AZSFWX's Sarah Palin banquet, I provided hundreds of buttons.

 

Shortly before the banquet, I had been asked to join the Board of Directors of Arizona Wildlife Federation. The evening of the the Palin banquet. I was advixed by a sitting member, not to mention Prop. 109 when I met with the board the next day. I was not in a position to follow his advice. I was completely transparent.

 

At the AWF annual meeting, I asked for the support of the board for Prop 109. The request was tabled until the quarerly meetin in September. Surprisingly, with on;y a few days left the board voted to support Prop. 109. AWF's letter of support arrived at the Secretary of States Office shortly before the deadline.

 

BPJ needs to get his facts straight. He has claimed that he is protecting certain individuals by not identifying them. I guess Robbie and I don't fit in his protected group.

 

Over the years, I have learned that you will get much more support if you are completely transparent, and work closely with the Arizona Game and Fish Commission and Department.

 

As I get caught up, I may have more to say in order to set the reacord straight.

 

George