HB 2072 Sale of big game tags

[Devil Diver Down]

I appreciate the things AZSFW has done for Arizona hunters, but that doesn't grant them a blanket pass for everything they do. HB 2072 is, at its best, a poorly aimed attempt at a good cause. At worst, well, it's what a lot of folks here are calling it. There are too many problems with this bill--the lack of credible audit/accounting, the great disparity between the auction and raffle tag seasons and the lack of specifics regarding how the profits will be well spent not to mention the dangerous concept of further monetizing of our natural resources--for it to be allowed to move forward or even be place on hold by the AZ Legislature. The bill needs to be killed entirely. A new one, with radical changes and specifics can always be written and introduced.

 

Clearly, the money needs are great to tackle the issues targeted by the supposed profits--hunter R&R, habitat enhancement and access issues. Those issues are important to every hunter in and outside Arizona. Our hunting futures and those of our kids depend on them being solved. But we cannot give the farm away to save one cow.

 

I'm not ready to judge everything the AZSFW group does by this misguided or possibly sneaky attempt at legislating our game. But it's not a good step for them in my book.

[.270]

here's a question i'd like answered. if this is such a wonderful thing and has so many important ramifications that us mere morons can't understand, why did you try to backdoor it? answer that with a straight face. and if you can't find public land to hunt on in Az, you're real lazy. i don't buy that "reason" one bit. south of phx you have horrible desert with little game, indian reservations and drug corridors. southeast Az has some private land issues, but they are what they are and a guy who is willing to work won't have much problem finding a place to hunt. this thing smells a lot like george taulman and uso all over again. take away tags from "us" to give to "them" only this time under the disguise of conservation. if there are so many guys with so much money willing to lay cash down for a tag, why don't these benevolent sportsmen just donate it? Lark.

[gearsnagger]

here's a question i'd like answered. if this is such a wonderful thing and has so many important ramifications that us mere morons can't understand, why did you try to backdoor it? answer that with a straight face. and if you can't find public land to hunt on in Az, you're real lazy. i don't buy that "reason" one bit. south of phx you have horrible desert with little game, indian reservations and drug corridors. southeast Az has some private land issues, but they are what they are and a guy who is willing to work won't have much problem finding a place to hunt. this thing smells a lot like george taulman and uso all over again. take away tags from "us" to give to "them" only this time under the disguise of conservation. if there are so many guys with so much money willing to lay cash down for a tag, why don't these benevolent sportsmen just donate it? Lark.

+1 LARK - And I also like the way you spelled george tualman.... :lol:

When some rich guy buys a governors he can write it off 100% on their tax's as a donation to whatever organization auctions that tag! Can I write off my deer or elk tag - Nope , in fact I have to pay an xtra tax on it because it's hunting related!

Just another way that whitey keeps us down!

[DesertBull]

Just curious how the AZSFW has made a penny in the past 6 years of existence... I know you have not paid a dime... nor have all the other "experts" who are chiming in. The real truth is that several very dedicated sportsmen who do have deep pockets put together this organization.... And paid for it out of their own pockets. No one on the board makes a penny, never has... Statements that charge otherwise are blatantly false.

 

 

So, the guys that formed this group are the same guys that buy the auction tags and now they want more tags to bid on. Who'd a thunk it?

[ThomC]

Well, boguspointjohn you sound verry much like a politician or a used car salesman. I have noticed that you have answered only some of the questions and avoided others, or have tried to change the subject. Very suspicious.

[Non-Typical Solutions]

here's a question i'd like answered. if this is such a wonderful thing and has so many important ramifications that us mere morons can't understand, why did you try to backdoor it? answer that with a straight face. and if you can't find public land to hunt on in Az, you're real lazy. i don't buy that "reason" one bit. south of phx you have horrible desert with little game, indian reservations and drug corridors. southeast Az has some private land issues, but they are what they are and a guy who is willing to work won't have much problem finding a place to hunt. this thing smells a lot like george taulman and uso all over again. take away tags from "us" to give to "them" only this time under the disguise of conservation. if there are so many guys with so much money willing to lay cash down for a tag, why don't these benevolent sportsmen just donate it? Lark.

Bonus,

My questions must have been just sensless so go ahead and just answer the question posed by Lark in the first sentence of this post??

[Comm1]

The groups that auction tags now do profit from having these tags because they advertise they have them and get better attendance at banquet because of that fact! Bonusjohn avoids answering all the questions for the same reason ther was so much secrecy with this bill, he is an insider at AZSFW!!!! No transparency at all because they know we will all object to there self serving bill that sells tags that belong to the citizens of the state and would pack their bank account with millions of $!!!

[Ringer]

The groups that auction tags now do profit from having these tags because they advertise they have them and get better attendance at banquet because of that fact! Bonusjohn avoids answering all the questions for the same reason ther was so much secrecy with this bill, he is an insider at AZSFW!!!! No transparency at all because they know we will all object to there self serving bill that sells tags that belong to the citizens of the state and would pack their bank account with millions of $!!!

 

Thanks for understanding that Don Peay is in it for Don Peay. He was supporting Taulman until the heat went up. SFW is bad for Arizona hunters. They will do what they have to to brag about how great they are but they are in it for the wealthy sponsors and founders. I think they will learn the Taulman lesson after this self serving attempt. We all need to keep the heat on all of the legislature in both parties and push for a bill outlawing the whoring of our big game system. If we don't make that law Peay will keep trying to buy off political favors until he gets his way.

[bonuspointjohn]

here's a question i'd like answered. if this is such a wonderful thing and has so many important ramifications that us mere morons can't understand, why did you try to backdoor it? answer that with a straight face. and if you can't find public land to hunt on in Az, you're real lazy. i don't buy that "reason" one bit. south of phx you have horrible desert with little game, indian reservations and drug corridors. southeast Az has some private land issues, but they are what they are and a guy who is willing to work won't have much problem finding a place to hunt. this thing smells a lot like george taulman and uso all over again. take away tags from "us" to give to "them" only this time under the disguise of conservation. if there are so many guys with so much money willing to lay cash down for a tag, why don't these benevolent sportsmen just donate it? Lark.

Bonus,

My questions must have been just sensless so go ahead and just answer the question posed by Lark in the first sentence of this post??

The answer is pretty easy, there are a lot of groups that we thought would not particularly like the bill, such as the Sierra Club, CBD, Defenders etc. All the members of the critter groups were approached and the concept was disclosed, as was the commission. The bill was not "backdoored"... and the "emergency" clause" was so that once the bill was passed it would not have to wait 90 days after sine die before it became law. And yes Lark... those benevolent sportsmen have given thousands of dollars on a donated basis. I am not claiming that I can't find land to hunt on, the ADA has been contacted numerous times by groups from Southern AZ.... and yes, it is a fact that many areas are locked off by private landowners. If you doubt my story, check it out with any WM from Region 5. I am sorry if you do not "Buy" that reason Lark, but it is a fact.

[bonuspointjohn]

The groups that auction tags now do profit from having these tags because they advertise they have them and get better attendance at banquet because of that fact! Bonusjohn avoids answering all the questions for the same reason ther was so much secrecy with this bill, he is an insider at AZSFW!!!! No transparency at all because they know we will all object to there self serving bill that sells tags that belong to the citizens of the state and would pack their bank account with millions of $!!!

Actually, we do not get better attendance because of the auction tags. If you have ever been to a banquet, the really high cost tags are sold through a phone bidder. Since we are all 501C3 organizations and since no one gets paid as a board member, where do you think the money goes?... The ADA funded the 3Bar study, which showed conclusively and scientifically that predators were wiping out fawns. We helped fund the Kaibab study where deer were captured, studied, and data was gathered in order to better manage the deer across the Kaibab. Our group meets monthly and we try to inform the membership as to what we are doing and why. How many of you are aware that the USFWS is currently meeting in Albuquerque with plans to introduce more Mexican gray wolves across all of AZ and Utah and Colorado? Our board does a lot of good things which will go largely unnoticed. We do it because we care. We have never had millions of dollars and if you doubt that, check with Amanda, she is on our board and gives a lot of her time and energies towards that. The big money guys are not typically at a banquet. Sometimes they donate money to the banquet to help cover the costs. All the money from the tags goes back to the department... every penny. Does this help at all?

[BigGuns]

For those not counting bonuspointJohn is sitting at a -36 reputation on this topic alone. Just an observation.

Well, I'm just trying to answer questions and give as many honest answers as I can. When I read some of the creative theories here and how we all make such big money on these conservation groups I feel it should be responded to. I know that several are watching this website today, some are just reading, some are obviously angry. I was a part of all this mess and have been active in a lot of groups for a long time. So if people want to take their shots go ahead. Hunters all have a unique theory, all of them are right and none of them are the same..... except that you all do not like the HB2072 as proposed. We all have a deep passion for wildlife, I have given up on drawing a sheep tag (too old) and will never see the light of one of these auction tags...But it is important for people to learn more, understand what the bill was about and know that guides and outfitters were not behind this. If no one responded to this stuff, then you would all think that we who work on conservation groups are reeling in the cash, trying to cozy up to landowner tags and destroying the rights of "joe hunter"...Whether you choose to believe it or not is your choice, but at least you can vent at me.

 

I am new to this site, but felt I had to voice my opinion after hearing the Commissioners speak and reading these posts. I am a conservative woman who shoots, hunts, fishes, rides horses (and motorcycles), rock climbs and loves Arizona ... and is sick and tired of seeing our Founders trampled into obliteration by unholy alliances between government and special interest groups whether they be conservative or liberal, federal or state. You may scratch your head or be indignant by that comment- but let me ask you this- Are you ok with public assets funding Planned Parenthood? NPR? NEA? Unions? ACORN? Public assets (money) gets funneled back to political influence in all those cases and it drives me crazy. So- for me- it is the difference between someone who loves the heritage of this Country so much that they are willing to do the right things for the right reasons the RIGHT WAY versus someone who believes the ends justify the means, so it is ok to engage in the same back room tactics as those to whom you are opposed just as long as you meet your goal in the end. I call those people HYPOCRITES! Do hunters and 2nd Amendment supporters need representation- YES! Do hunters and 2nd Amendment supporters need a way to get their message out in a positive fashion that educates people as to how critical these issues are to the founding principles, security and independence of Arizonans and Americans- HECK YEAH! But it is incumbent upon the clubs and supporters to find the representation that reflects their values and has positive ideas and solutions ... not the same old "business as usual" as Commissioner Freeman put it. Bluntly put- when you use the same tactics as the opponent, you are speaking their language- so expect a punch in the nose back when you throw one. Let's elevate the discourse and show how it SHOULD be done! Seriously- "banquets" and "administration"- are you KIDDING?! More of the "special" people getting "special" favors for being "special." Sounds like the White House to me! Also- a 5-0 vote by the Commission- and you say they knew about this and/or supported it?! Show me the agenda where it was brought before them ...

[AZLance]

We have never had millions of dollars and if you doubt that, check with Amanda, she is on our board and gives a lot of her time and energies towards that. The big money guys are not typically at a banquet. Sometimes they donate money to the banquet to help cover the costs. All the money from the tags goes back to the department... every penny. Does this help at all?

[AZLance]

The groups that auction tags now do profit from having these tags because they advertise they have them and get better attendance at banquet because of that fact! Bonusjohn avoids answering all the questions for the same reason ther was so much secrecy with this bill, he is an insider at AZSFW!!!! No transparency at all because they know we will all object to there self serving bill that sells tags that belong to the citizens of the state and would pack their bank account with millions of $!!!

Actually, we do not get better attendance because of the auction tags. If you have ever been to a banquet, the really high cost tags are sold through a phone bidder. Since we are all 501C3 organizations and since no one gets paid as a board member, where do you think the money goes?... The ADA funded the 3Bar study, which showed conclusively and scientifically that predators were wiping out fawns. We helped fund the Kaibab study where deer were captured, studied, and data was gathered in order to better manage the deer across the Kaibab. Our group meets monthly and we try to inform the membership as to what we are doing and why. How many of you are aware that the USFWS is currently meeting in Albuquerque with plans to introduce more Mexican gray wolves across all of AZ and Utah and Colorado? Our board does a lot of good things which will go largely unnoticed. We do it because we care. We have never had millions of dollars and if you doubt that, check with Amanda, she is on our board and gives a lot of her time and energies towards that. The big money guys are not typically at a banquet. Sometimes they donate money to the banquet to help cover the costs. All the money from the tags goes back to the department... every penny. Does this help at all?

 

BonuspointJohn,

 

I think you would clear some things up here, if you would list your active board members (your web page is incorrect), and post AZSFW's finiancials, or a link to them. Come out from behind the closed doors, and show the hunters of AZ some real transpanrency.

[.270]

so you pretty much admit you tried to pull a fast but you tried the backdoor to hide it from the huggers? interesting. if this is such a wonderful deal for all sportsman, why did you intentionally hide it from them? don't want their support? don't think they can be of help? they too stupid to understand the complexities of such a wonderful thing? they need someone to make their decisions for them because they are so ignorant of what is really good? taking premium permits away from folks who's only avenue to ever get a premium permit is through the public draw and basically handing those permits over to guys who can buy anything they want, anywhere, anytime, ain't a real good way to get joe sportsman on your side. doesn't really matter how much "good" you say it will do. this is a program to do exactly that. and you say it in so few sentences. you want "us" to hand over permits that "we" have a chance to get, to "them", that can go anywhere and do anything they want. and you justify it with a few lines about all the private land you're gonna open up and all the conservation things you are gonna do and this and that, but you have very few real details. everything is so vague. nothing anyone can really get any definition from. i've been in on a lot of business plans over the years and they require a lotta detail, volumes, in order to justify and get the money needed. programs that are a lot smaller than this. you're saying it will raise millions? and you want that opportunity based on a some real vague info? none of this says much to me. other than someone is trying to pull a fast one. you say Az is 17% private. and about 75% of that private land is urban. open country in Az that is where sportsmen would like to be is small single digits of thec percentage of Az open country. like the old saying, there are lies, d a m n lies and then there are statistics. you can make statistics say anything you want. i can use yours to prove my case and use yours to prove you're wrong. this program will benefit a few rich guys and whatever posse they hire to sit on an animal until they can get away from other things to come and shoot it. and whatever "good" you say it will do outside of that, will be miniscule at best. Lark

[bonuspointjohn]

We have never had millions of dollars and if you doubt that, check with Amanda, she is on our board and gives a lot of her time and energies towards that. The big money guys are not typically at a banquet. Sometimes they donate money to the banquet to help cover the costs. All the money from the tags goes back to the department... every penny. Does this help at all?

 

 

This is Classic! This also explains why Amanda is pushing the AZSFW propaganda in this topic. She never discloses in this topic that she is a Board Member, but instead Amanda says, "I haven't made up my mind either as I haven't read through the bill in detail." How can you be a board member, and havent read the bill, or have a opinion on the matter?

 

the plot thickens....

Amanda and I are board members of the ADA... NOT the AZSFW... I am also a board member of the AZSFWC...Going back through the chain you will see where I listed the ADA as the group that I represent...