Berger VLD vs Barnes TTSX

[elpepe25]

im a fan of the berger, then the a-max due to the high BC

 

not a barnes fan, energy wasted on the hillside behind the critter does me no good.

[firstcoueswas80]

"energy wasted on a hillside..."

 

 

Ive seen my fair share of animals die from TTSX's.... African game ( I killed 10, Scottyboy shot something like 5 or so), coues deer, elk, coyotes etc. The FARTHEST I have EVER seen an animal run was 50 yards, and that was a double lung hit Impala.

 

 

My brothers coues deer, the 2 coues deer I have killed, his elk and all but 2 African animals died on the spot. The farthest I have ever had to track a coues deer was yesterday.. And thats because he rolled (DEAD) about 75 yards farther then Jim and I thought he had.

 

 

The TTSX is an outstanding killer and hits and kills faster and harder than it should! It is a GREAT 600 and in bullet. I would go the 165/168 though, as thats what I shot from my 300 wsm

[jeremiahjohnson]

You can think you want to shoot those bullets, but really it what your gun wants to shoot. I have a 300 rum and I've shot 150s to 210s. I like the bergers, I want a bullet to put everything it has into the animal, not hold 98% of it's weight. I'm sure this will get all the barnes lovers all ruffled up, but whatever!! There's my 2 pesos

[John O]

Not saying TTSXs are the best choce for everyone, but they have my vote. My good buddy hunts with the Bergers, and yes they do amazing damage. I think in the end, shot placement rules so focusing more on a good trigger, steady rest, practice, and knowing your ballistics are going to ensure a clean kill no matter which one you go with. I have attached some TTSX wound photos for reference (Warning- A little graphic). Two show ideal shot placement, and the others were a little off. Either way they performed very well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[firstcoueswas80]

TTSX fired from .257 wby into a coues deer at 291 yards:

 

TTSX from Red Hartebeest and Black Springbok. Fired from 300 wsm (168 graners)

[elpepe25]

The theory of fast expanding bullets has worked well with varmint hunters for years. Not many coyotes take another step after the violent impact of one of these bullets. I do not see why this cannot be applied to bigger critters with larger caliber and some toughening of bullets. I am not a lung eater, so something that glitters and shreds lungs.. i like. (Hypothetically) The 1200 ft lbs that exits a critter in the form of a pretty mushroom delivers no more hydrostatic shock (the thing that kills critters and drops them), and dumps its excess energy elsewhere besides the animal. Over penetration does nothing for you with a rifle with the exception of adding another hole and a better blood trail. I am sure that success can be had with the ttsx, and it’s proven. But I am also sure an FMJ with good placement is a killer too. But once again over penetration does nothing for you. Rapidly expanding bullets create a larger temporary and permanent wound channel via many small wound channels. They utilize the energy more completely and efficiently. The expansion of a solid or bonded bullet is maybe 3 times the original diameter, tops. However with an rapidly expanding-fragmenting bullet the overall surface area gain is huge, therefore delivering more energy over a larger area.

[firstcoueswas80]

Over pentrating does nothing for you, accept when one needs 2+ (sorry for the + Becker) FEET of penetration to get to the vitals of a hard 1/4"ing away bull elk, not 2-3 INCHES then an explosion...

 

I have used, on Coues, both bullets in discussion here. The Coues I shot at 572 yards with the 115 Berger VLD from my .257 wby lived for approximately 25 minutes AFTER the hit. Granted, he didnt go but about 10 yards and got REALLY sick REALLY quick but he also didnt srop a single drop of blood.

 

When Matt and I walked up to the buck, we expected him to be gut shot, instead this is what we found :

Not a dead center lung hit, but about 1.5-2" back from dead center. The internal damage was massive, the lungs destroyed but there as no exit, and no blood. Had this buck decided to get out of town instead of stay where he was he probably would not have been recovered. If there was an exit, I am sure there would be blood every where. Would a TTSX have worked better? Its hard to say. The buck died within eye sight, there was no tracking involved, but he also wasnt a bang-flop. I'm not gonna say for sure that a TTSX would have worked BETTER, but it probably would have been different results.

 

Now, I have seen atleast 5 Coues deer die to a TSX/TTSX and not a single one has taken another step (257 wby, 270 wsm, 7 Rem Mag). To me, thats pretty impressive. Not to mention my brothers elk, and the 10 African animals I killed all with TTSX's.

 

Plus, with accuracy like this (510 yards) 95%+ weight retention, and penetration for days, why wouldnt one use a TTSX?

 

I like the ballistic tip/BTHP/VLD style bullets for predators. In fact, I have probably shot 100 or so coyotes with BT's and I now load 68 grain Hornady BTHP's for my AR-15. They definately have their place, and if TRUE long range is what your after, they are probably the best choice. For me though, with my max shooting distace of 600-650 yards the TTSX/Accubond type bullets work the best for me and are my preferance.

 

As a side note, a lot of coyote hunters experience shoulder splash fairly regularly with these type of bullets. I havent seen it a lot, but I have seen it and it is nasty and leaves a coyote running away with nothing more than a 4-6" circle of hair missing and some exposed bone.

[kwp]

Over pentrating does nothing for you, accept when one needs 2+ (sorry for the + Becker) FEET of penetration to get to the vitals of a hard 1/4"ing away bull elk, not 2-3 INCHES then an explosion...

 

Casey makes a really good point here. When conditions are not ideal as in many hunting situations, especially long range hunting, I'd rather know that my bullet could penetrate long ways through a big game animal rather than blow up its hind end.

 

With good shot placement it doesn't matter what bullet is used (even an arrow will do it), but if the shot placement isn't perfect, will the bullet still get the job done?

 

P.S. The barnes bullets work at long range too. My brother dropped his bull in it's tracks at 710 yards with a 180 grain TSX out of his 300WM.

[308Nut]

All bullets work at long range. Some just work better than others. In this case berger works better than barnes at long range. Really no need to argue on the long range aspect. I have used both. Barnes are good closer up, berger are good longer away.

 

Interesting.

 

 

Berger claims that it takes 1800 FPS for expansion. Barnes has told me numerous times 1600 FPS for theirs and possibly less FPS on flesh.

 

Bergers tend to have higher BC which will allow them to maintain velcoity better than barnes, but I wouldnt call the Barnes a poor long range performer.

Also, pass throughs does not always translate into energy wasted. A pass through with an FMJ is energy wasted. A pass through with an expaned bullet is a job well done. Massive amounts of energy have still been transfered. Just because it did not desintegrate inside the animal does not mean energy was wasted.

 

We can debate all we want. The GOOD NEWS is that in the context of this thread, coues deer are pretty forgiving when it comes to bullet selection. Bump it up to elk and moose and that interjects a whole new set of rules.

[308Nut]

All i meant was with a perfect shot any bullet will do the job within its limits. In my opinion barnes TSX need more than their stated velocity to work. Not that it matters but i dont use either bullet listed anymore. I stick with hornady now.

 

I have a lot to learn still so correct me if i say anything stupid.

 

J

 

And that goes for me as well. And no you didnt say anything stupid. I'm sorry if I came across that way.

 

 

 

Which Hornadys do you use?

 

I am also a huge hornady fan. AMAX mostly but the BTSP's work great also. For coues I like the AMAX but if my rifle liked the TTSX or LRX better, I would certainly use them over the AMAX and with confidence. Or the Bergers for that matter.

[308Nut]

I have found the Hornady SST to work very well on all animals. One shot kills from

Antelope at 280 to Bull elk at 350 and 600.

 

This year I will be going to wyoming and am thinking about bringing the TTSX to try on some antelope to see how they compare. Also will be using my new 308. I am thinking about trying to compare different bullets in similar conditions to see which performs best. Might compare the TTSX to the SST which has been a proven killer for me.

 

Can you elaborate? What caliber? What velocities? Did you recover any of them?

 

I have shot SST's but never shot game with them. I have been interested in them for game, just never got around to trying them on game. They are cheaper than Interbonds and ACCUBONDS but didnt know if they would come unglued on elk etc...

 

Thanks in advance for the info.

 

M

[308Nut]

7mmMag. 162 gn SST. 3050 fps. Recovered one out of the 350 yd elk. Recovered it in his opposite front shoulder. Hit a front rib and destroyed the organs. Was still mostly entact with good mushrooming. Entered just behind the front shoulder. 600 yd elk was a pass through but exit wound was about 2". Was a heart shot and hit no bone. The Antelope shot were pass throughs as well with large exit wounds. No bullets recovered out of the antelope.

 

I am currently loading the 180 gn SST to shoot out of my 308. Havent been able to shoot an animal with it yet but i will this year (hopefully). Also trying the 200 gn sierra gameking.

 

Thats good to hear. One of these days I will get around to trying the SST's on game.

 

I definately think you will be pleased with the 200 Game King in your 308. A little much for coues bucks etc....but for elk and large mulies, you wont be disapointed.

[hawkeye]

I've used both, and now only use Barnes ttsx. In the past years I have had trouble putting down a few animals with the Bergers. Too rapid expansion. On several accounts the front shoulder was reduced to mush and in one instance it took me 4 more days to find him limping around on a useless front leg. I wouldn't have changed on that account alone, but there have been other instances with me and my boys. I'll admit that some of the problem was the speed of my bullet from my 300 ultramag, but I have had no such problems with the barnes.

 

Dave.

[azcoueshuntr]

Been doin alot of reloading these past few weeks for the 270 win after researching about the bergers 140gr vld ive been trying them with different loads of powders and different c.o.a.l and seem to have responed really well with imr 4350 53Gr. cci br2 primers and the c.o.a.l at the Max 3.340. My 3 shoot groups were at .4 of an inch and my 5 shoot group was at .7 both at 100 yards at 200 yards they were both at 1 inch. I havnt tried goin up in my powder grains yet according to Berger im only at 94% powder capacity and pushn 2955 fps. other powders i have used are Ram Hunter, H4831sc and Ram Big Game thanks for all the info u all have posted gonna try the Barnes TTSX next will keep u posted

[Mike S]

Been doin alot of reloading these past few weeks for the 270 win after researching about the bergers 140gr vld ive been trying them with different loads of powders and different c.o.a.l and seem to have responed really well with imr 4350 53Gr. cci br2 primers and the c.o.a.l at the Max 3.340. My 3 shoot groups were at .4 of an inch and my 5 shoot group was at .7 both at 100 yards at 200 yards they were both at 1 inch. I havnt tried goin up in my powder grains yet according to Berger im only at 94% powder capacity and pushn 2955 fps. other powders i have used are Ram Hunter, H4831sc and Ram Big Game thanks for all the info u all have posted gonna try the Barnes TTSX next will keep u posted

 

With those groups I wouldn't worry much about more speed. Do you know how far off the lands the bullets are seated?

Thanks,

Mike