Defending predators

[muleskinner]

Just wanted to respond to azhuntnut's suggestion that I might be an animal activist because of some of my posts regarding mountain lions. For info sake, I am currently feeding 8 hounds and 2 mules that I use for bear and lion hunting. We treed a nice 300# bear for my grandson this fall. So no, I'm not an animal activist. I drew a deer tag this year and never hunted one day due to work load. My dogs are fat and lazy right now because I have'nt had time to go chase a lion yet this year. I am simply responding to an attitude among a lot of deer hunters, some of whom post on this forum reularly, that deer or elk are the only valid big game animal on the planet. And because I hunt deer, anything other than a man with weapon that happens to kill a deer, should be eliminated. That means that I am justified in killing a female lion barely out of spots and boasting about the awesome trophy. Yes, I have an agenda! I would like to think that there will always be a viable lion population for my kids and grandkids to enjoy. Some of the juvenile statements made about killing all these lions that are single handedly wiping out the deer herds, exposes some narrow minded perspectives. Why do some deer hunters staunchly support intelligent management of one game animal, and then publicly advocate the total slaughter of another? Not just a little inconsistent and hypocritical. Apparently there is a sentiment that says, "the particular game animal I choose to pursue is inherently more valuable than any other game animal, simply because it's the one I prefer". I have no problem with those who hunt deer, elk, sheep, etc. I happen to enjoy hunting lions with hounds. Just because the lion I pursue ate a few of your deer, please refrain from lobbying for the elimination of the species. By the way, I posted congrats to the guy who just killed an awesome lion behind some hounds. A true trophy harvested in a responsible and respectful manner. I think that is how it should be done. All this talk about deer makes me hungry for some backstrap for breakfast. Anyway, azhuntnut, don't take life too serious. It's gonna work out ok.

[COUESAZ]

Sounds like you need my brother and I to help keep your dogs and mules leged up for you. Let me know if you need help. I did not read any posts that led to this so not sure what it's about. But after losing some hood dogs this year to rattle snakes we would be more then happy to help you out.

[Couzer]

If its a legal animal to shoot, then who are people on here to judge how big their trophy is? If the law makers want to come out and change how big the animal needs to be then let THEM change the rules. Like I had stated before, if its legal and I have a tag its my choice to harvest the animal. If anyone is upset about why spikes, and smaller bucks or younger animals are taken then they need to go speak with the people managing the game!!!

[Swivelhead]

Not too worried about our predator populations. Mt. lions are the most successful large cat in the modern world. Currently their range is expanding. 1080, "getters" and trapping are no longer legal. Houndsmen are the only viable control mechanism that is currently legal. Anti's know this and therefore I would'nt be surprised if the next hunting related ballot initiative in this state deals specifically with houndsmen, lions & bears. Hope it never happens.

 

Doubt anybody posting on this site would advocate the extinction of mt. lions. I believe lions have it better now than ever. Limited prey base in the wild? Lions will utilize the urban interface or a ranchers livestock till things get better. Lion populations are artificially high IMO. Public land managers have lost most viable methods of predator control via policy. Hunting depends on surplus animals, uncontrolled predation reduces or eliminates the huntable surplus. So ....... please don't pass up an opportunity to reduce a burgeoning predator population. Don't EVEN get me started on coyotes!

[Gr8 White Jr]

aRT,

 

I'm not one to get involved in these kind of topics but since you can't seem to let this one go I will give my two cents(even though it probably worth a lot less ). It is apparent that you have an agenda, just wondering if it consists of being confrontational. Dave (azhuntnut) took a legal lion by legal means of take. "Small female barely out of spots" or not, he needs no justification. Just because you wouldn't take a young lion or a female lion does not mean that other hunters shouldn't or need some kind of "justification" to do so. I know many guys who would never shoot a spike buck/bull, they would rather come home empty handed in hopes that those younger bucks/bulls will grow up to reach their prime maturity ages. These same guys however, would be very happy for another hunter who chooses to take a spike. I am happy for Dave and congratulate him on his first lion. Whether its a young female barely out of spots or a huge tom like the one recently posted, a trophy is in the eye of the beholder and if he chooses to do so Dave has every right to "boast" about HIS trophy. I think it is unfair of you to try to take away from his success just because YOU don't view his lion as a trophy.

 

I don't think most people on this site would advocate the "total slaughter" of lions. Would they support keeping them in check? Absolutely! Just as all other predators do, lions have their place. I don't believe that lions are going to wipe out every deer on the planet but they sure can devastate the deer numbers in an area. I don't think deer or elk hold any higher value than a lion but on the same token the lion sure doesn't hold any higher value than the deer or elk. I don't want to see every lion slaughtered but at the same time I don't want to see deer numbers in areas take a hard hit because they are being "slaughtered" by lions.

 

Try looking at it this way, you like to hunt lions and you are concerned for their numbers. As you stated you "would like to think that their will be a viable lion population for your kids and grandkids to enjoy." Well, a lot of guys like to hunt deer, elk and sheep and would like to think that there will be a viable population of those game animals for their kid and grand kids to enjoy. If lions weren't a problem then AZGFD wouldn't have just passed new laws to try to help keep their populations in check.

 

There will be plenty of lions for your kids and grand kids to enjoy, I assure you that! Deer on the other hand, who knows? Anyway, don't take this lion stuff so seriously. Its going to work out, okay?

 

-Tracy

[gearsnagger]

If lions are not a predation problem then why did the G&F just make it legal to hunt them at night with lights? For several years now there has been multiple bag limit units that permit hunter's to shoot a lion per day until the unit quotas are met!These quotas are never met!

The combination of drought and too many lions = diminishing sheep/deer populations..... We can't do much about the weather/drought so the logical answer is to thin out the lion population....

It sounds to me that you are against shooting young/small lions because they make more of a trophy when they grow older & larger by eating our deer and sheep!

I want to know why none of the quotas in the multiple bag units are ever met?????? Is it all the big bad hound hunters out there turning loose small cats because they want them to get bigger by eating the sheep and deer!

The reason why they have the multiple bag limits is to encourage the hunters to shoot lions big or small and be able to get after them the next day!

The hound hunters ain't been getting it done so the G&F now allows night hunting with lights - I guarantee you that when I call in a Mt Lion day or night I won't be judging it's size before pulling the trigger.... As long as it doesn't have spots or kittens its gonna get skinned! I am not against hounds hunting and I have done it , shooting a scared cat up a tree with a pack of hounds squawking was fun and expensive$$$$ I have also called and killed several lions - I prefer the calling method it just seems more natural to see a big cat come slinking in to make a kill and then surprise it with a a lead sandwich!

Hey aRt - Don't give up that day job I don't think you can cut it as a professional lion hunter!

[BeardownAZ]

We all know lions are a problem population wise. But they dont need to be eliminated, just controlled better. Same as coyotes and I love to predator call but there is defianetly to many of them. Game and Fish manages money and politics, not wildlife. And when I say Game and Fish, I am referring to the head state office, not the boots on the ground in the field.

[Scooter]

Art,

The current law states what constitutes a legal lion, and if a legal lion is harvested- it's a trophy in the eyes of the beholder. No one really thinks you're an anti-hunter, they just have a poop taste in their mouth cause you bagged on a guy's mt. lion pic. He did not sound like a dyed-in-the-wool lion hunter, but was proud of his harvest. It's your job as the more experienced lion hunter to encourage and educate him rather than crap all over his story. I agreed about the non-recovered animal... If it were me I would have just kept on looking for it and if I didn't find it- oh well, I guess I shoulda made a better shot. When you only get to harvest 1 animal per year (in most areas)- I believe if your bullet, arrow, shot, rock, spear, etc. draws blood, the animal is yours whether you find it or not. That goes for all game species big and small... I've shot and crippled ducks that were unrecoverable and just added them to my bag limit. But that is not what the law states... it's a question of my hunter-ethics versus others.

 

In the future if your hunter-ethic conflicts with someone else's hunter-ethic, the best place for that is not right after a guy has posted a proud picture of a legal animal. I mean, he was very proud and his kid now has to read a post about how much of a scumbag you think his dad is for not killing what you consider a trophy. Get what I'm saying???

[firstcoueswas80]

aRT,

 

I'm not one to get involved in these kind of topics but since you can't seem to let this one go I will give my two cents(even though it probably worth a lot less ). It is apparent that you have an agenda, just wondering if it consists of being confrontational. Dave (azhuntnut) took a legal lion by legal means of take. "Small female barely out of spots" or not, he needs no justification. Just because you wouldn't take a young lion or a female lion does not mean that other hunters shouldn't or need some kind of "justification" to do so. I know many guys who would never shoot a spike buck/bull, they would rather come home empty handed in hopes that those younger bucks/bulls will grow up to reach their prime maturity ages. These same guys however, would be very happy for another hunter who chooses to take a spike. I am happy for Dave and congratulate him on his first lion. Whether its a young female barely out of spots or a huge tom like the one recently posted, a trophy is in the eye of the beholder and if he chooses to do so Dave has every right to "boast" about HIS trophy. I think it is unfair of you to try to take away from his success just because YOU don't view his lion as a trophy.

 

I don't think most people on this site would advocate the "total slaughter" of lions. Would they support keeping them in check? Absolutely! Just as all other predators do, lions have their place. I don't believe that lions are going to wipe out every deer on the planet but they sure can devastate the deer numbers in an area. I don't think deer or elk hold any higher value than a lion but on the same token the lion sure doesn't hold any higher value than the deer or elk. I don't want to see every lion slaughtered but at the same time I don't want to see deer numbers in areas take a hard hit because they are being "slaughtered" by lions.

 

Try looking at it this way, you like to hunt lions and you are concerned for their numbers. As you stated you "would like to think that their will be a viable lion population for your kids and grandkids to enjoy." Well, a lot of guys like to hunt deer, elk and sheep and would like to think that there will be a viable population of those game animals for their kid and grand kids to enjoy. If lions weren't a problem then AZGFD wouldn't have just passed new laws to try to help keep their populations in check.

 

There will be plenty of lions for your kids and grand kids to enjoy, I assure you that! Deer on the other hand, who knows? Anyway, don't take this lion stuff so seriously. Its going to work out, okay?

 

-Tracy

 

 

Youre just mad because of the lion you missed last year!

[.270]

i'm a recovering lion hunter. and besides, we have all been told that using dogs is unsportsmanlike. unless you're quail hunting. but, i think everyone should buy a lion tag every year and if they see a lion, any lion, they should shoot it, if they want to. lions are one animal that ain't never had a dent put in their population by hunters. too sneaky. if folks knew how close they have been to a lion, and didn't know it, they would be surprised. if someone wants to turn a treed lion lose, that's fine with me too. it's a free country. but if someone wants to shoot a young one, that's absolutely fine too. no sense in any hunter trying to put any kind o' limits on any other hunter legally taking an animal. same with deer or elk or anything. i think everyone should shoot every coyote, lion, fox, bobcat, badger, bear whatever, as long as it's legal. we've never made much of a dent in predators by just hunting. and we ain't ever gonna put a big dent in the lion population. you might do it in a small mountain range if a guy with some good dogs really concentrates on an area. but i don't see that happening. lions are big game and anyone with a tag should be able to shoot any legal one they see, if they want to. if a guy has hounds, he can have the opportunity to be a little more selective. but joe hunters is lucky to ever see one, much less shoot it. as far as night hunting and stuff, i wonder if they azgfd is trying to make up for taking 25% of the lion season away for no good reason? maybe it backfired and the lion population is getting a little too high? i can think of a couple other reasons too. someone mentioned getters and 1080. i've seen lions get 1080'd. they seem to have a real sensitive stomach and puke it up and run away. it can kill em, but it never was a very good way. all i ever saw it do was make dogs sick after they licked up the puke. they killed lotsa bears, coyotes and wolves with it, but it was never real effective on lions. @#$%%^@! stupid jerk anyway. and i don't see where a getter would be very good way either. they ain't too likely too look around for a little peice o' bait like a getter uses. they work real good on coyotes. but a #6 on a lion kill now, you can flat catch a lion that way. Lark.

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

aRT... I think you miss or lack one point that makes your argument/attack on David a poor choice. You are not from AZ nor do you have ANY clue what our populations or management looks like. Fact... You can not ellimintate lions in AZ... they are far more prolific than anyone can truely estimate. As a rule (unless under state contract) most houndsmen in this state Do refrain from the harvesting of Female cats,but paying clients do offten insist on taking females and it is perfectly LEGAL. However when you glass a lion and have a tag in your pocket it is pretty hard to sex the cat or even tell how large it is at a distance... and having glassed and tagged 2 female cats in the last decade here in my home state, I assure you I too was/am proud as a peacock at my good fortune! As a hound sympathizer (and occasional hunter) I am certain that when I do finally kill a large Tom with my bow over Dogs I will be equally as proud of my success... but until then I assure you we are not decimating our population by taking a female here or there. And I'd just as soon, out of state hunters not put their 2 cents in on something they realy have little knowlege about.

[Kaffer62]

Amen Gino!

[25-06]

Iam begining to wonder if theres to many deer in this state. Seems like every time I take the dogs out lion huntin all they do is run the piss outa deer.

Maybe deer hunters should just shoot any deer they can. It might make my kinda huntin a little better

[Mr. Jonathan]

Aside from whatever is going on at a personal level in this post, the original point is still valid I think. The attitude that a good lion is a dead lion is prolific among hunters. Having trouble finding game? Clearly too many lions. Buck to doe ratio off? Darn lions. I learned how to multiply as a kid in deer camp. It went like this: 1 deer per lion per week, times 52 weeks a year, equals 500 deer per lion per year. Clearly these are generalizations and exaggerated, so try hard to not read too deeply into them. The mountain lion is a convenient scapegoat for what really comes down to awful land management over the last several decades. And I do have a lion skull sitting here in my living room, from one that I arrowed in a tree. Been on a few other hunts, probably be on a few more. Might even have my own hounds some day.

 

 

Both of the quotes below are from Jack O'Conner, in articles penned for Outdoor life:

 

"The outlook for the [Mule] deer is, alas, not so good. In both Arizona and Sonora he is receiving pressure from every side. In Arizona most of his range is either leased from the state for peanuts by cattle ranchers or is Bureau of Land Management land leased from the federal government. The ranching interests are very powerful in Arizona -- so powerful that they have fought off any attempt to regulate the use of state-owned land. As a consequence, most state land in Arizona is fantastically overgrazed and overbrowsed and the desert deer must compete with cattle.

In Sonora the story is about the same. Most of the land is public domain; some of it is privately owned. All is overgrazed and overbrowsed. Most Southwestern ranches, whether in Arizona or Sonora, do not sell beef; they simply sell ambulatory carcasses that can be fattened and made into beef. Desert land is fragile. Growth is slow. Though the annual rainfall is only from one to nine inches a year, rains are often torrential and topsoil that has been laid bare by overgrazing is washed away. The desert was never intended to be cattle country."1

In another article by O'Conner, this one about the Coues deer, he writes thus about the role of lions (and predators in general):

"The main enemy of the [Coues] deer is the mountain lion, and until hunters get more skillful and are allowed to shoot does as well as bucks, predation by lions is necessary for healthy whitetail herds. In areas where lions are kept killed down, the deer become too plentiful, destroy their own browse, and die off from disease. The best Mexican deer ranges have a lot of lions -- and a lot of deer..."2

 

1 The Desert Mule Deer, Jack O'Conner, Originally Published in Outdoor Life Magazine, December 1970. Outdoor Life/Harper & Row, New York, Evanston, San Francisco, London. Copyright 1974.

 

2 The Arizona Coues Deer, Jack O'Conner, Originally Published in Outdoor Life under the title Our Smartest Game Animal, February 1958. Outdoor Life/Harper & Row, New York, Evanston, San Francisco, London. Copyright 1974.

[muleskinner]

A good spirited debate is probably good for about any issue. I guess we have succeeded in that. I certainly applaud every ones willingness to state their opinion. You most likely won't alter your opinion and I probably won't alter mine. No problem there. I lived in Arizona for 17 years and actually got my start running hounds while living in Tucson. Hunted birds with shorthairs, javelina, deer and elk. I still hunt birds in Az every time I can. I am a tad familiar with the scene there. We have many of the same attitudes in N. M. concerning lions. Most ranchers here think the only good lion is a dead lion. I fully understand their position. I guess the point I was trying to make is this: I don't understand why so many deer hunters have only one perspective on lions, and that is eliminate them because they happen to compete for the animal I am after. I own a business here and I don't consider myself a professional lion hunter. It's simply a thing I do for fun. Mostly from the enjoyment of seeing dogs work. So, I probably won't be quitting my day job any time soon. Unless someone would like to buy a fairly succesful hvac business in the middle of some beautiful country! Oh well, peace and prosperity be granted unto all of you. Long live el gato!