one more good wolf

[.270]

Might be funny if I was joking. Kill the wolves. Lark.

[ForkHorn]

FWIW, the biggest problem with Condors is that they don't even sexually mature until 6 or 7 years old, and then a female will only lay a single egg every other year. Not to mention that they mate for life.

 

There has only been 20 or so documented times of lead bullet fragments found in Condor stomachs in Arizona. So you're right Lark. Odds are that it doesnt happen very often. The problem with Condors is that they need every little bit of help they can get. It's not like their population can boom back to where it was in a single year. Every death can effect the population.

 

Copper bullets are not a bad thing. What I don't understand is the reasoning not to use them? They kill just as good as lead, and if they can potentially help a rare creature, why the heck not?

[jeremiahjohnson]

All of this attention that is being paid to endangered species is a whole lot disturbing to me. The fact that it is taking priority over human beings is very disturbing. When our society feels justified in destroying a families heritage and way of life, as in the case of some of our ranching families, we have a major problem. What makes any one species in the animal kingdom sacred. It has been the pattern since creation, that some last and some don't. There are no guarantees. Why do we feel obligated to insure every species existence? Is it the same mindset that wants to gaurantee everyone a paycheck whether they work or not? And what tangible difference does a bug, minnow, or bird make in the quality of anyones life? There are plenty of insects, minnows, and birds, for anyone to spend the rest of their lives looking at them. I am afraid we have a group of elitests that have come, and are coming out of our institutions of higher learning, that feel like the only ones qualified to make the rules are those with degrees behind their names. Frankly, that is a pile of crap! The best degree in life is common sense. Without it you are simply an educated idiot. I don't know if there is a conspiracy behind the environmentalists, tree-huggers, peta, and all those folks or not. It really does'nt matter. If they have their way, we will all be controlled by what some elite group thinks is best for some animal or insect. God made the animal world for man...not the other way around. Man has a responsibility to use common sense and compassion in his dealing with God's creation. When we place an animal in a higher priority than a human being, we have become perverted in our thinking. Lets try to use clarity of thought without the intrusion of emotionalism and foolish sentimentality when we make decisions in thses areas.

God's creation is not as fragile as some would like to believe. Assumimg of course, that you don't consider yourself to be God.

I agree with that statement, I feel that the elitists that are trying to save all the worlds creatures think they are doing the right thing, they have read the books, takin the classes, and read what others have learned and studied and added on to it as they feel is correct. Now then in this power trip country we live in, the berkinstock wearing little college granola gets out and wants to save the planet Yay!! They want to play god.. But they don't think ahead towards the repercussions of their actions. I come from a ranching family here in Az. Every week at the sale this convo comes up. Wolves have no place here in this state, I'm surprised they haven't brought back the grizzly like Ive heard mentioned. Anyway my point is.. Is the juice worth the squeeze?

[.270]

forkhorn, i appreciate your comments, but i have a little different take. the biggest problem with the condors is that they are practically a dinosaur that requires millions and millions of unfettered acres in order to survive. acres that don't exist anymore. they've been hurt by pesticides, urban sprawl, vast acres of farmland, powerlines, you name it, it is bad for them. and now they are trying to get them established in a place that is visited by thousands of people every day. they are trying to get them established in a place that is as unwild as los angeles. sure there is a big canyon there and they can soar around, but look at everything else that is there. none of which is good for condors. it's sad to say, but their time has run it's course. no way you're going to reverse all that has to be reversed in order for a few birds to exist. they have been declining for about 150 years ago. and i feel the main reason there is so much conversation by the condor people is for money. period. they want more money to employ themselves and keep their program going. and they need a bad guy to blame things on and the bad guy they are using right now is hunters with lead bullets. a guy has to ask himself how much he is willing to suffer in order for a few birds that are never going to recover? the farmland can't go fallow. cars and houses and all the infrastructre isn't going to go away. the condor isn't going to recover. it's too bad, but that's the way it is. so decide, how much are you willing to suffer, and when i say you, i mean everyone, in order for a few birds that are never going to recover and are never going to be a serious contributor to the habitat. if they take the bullets out, they will find another bad guy. and after they eliminate that bad guy, they'll find another one. it's the way it works. a good crisis is worth a lotta money and power to a lotta people. the condor's roll in the environment has been replaced by other animals and they are no longer a serious part of it. the same goes for these so called wolves and the sonoran grizzlies and many other animals. there isn't any wilderness anymore. none. at least not in the lower 48. there are little patches of ground we call wilderness, but true wilderness no longer exists. and the roll of the animals that haven't been able to adapt don't really exist anymore either. so everyone needs to ask themselves how much they are willing to suffer. because that is where we are at in this debate. that's the only place that is left for this debate to go. because the way things truly are, a lot of animals are no longer truly relevant. Lark.

[Outdoor Writer]

if you want to eat the bull$h!t and drink the treehugger koolaid and puke it up for others to consume, that's your prerogative. but don't get upset when folks who are capable of thinking for themselves won't swallow it along with you. i have read in the official documents offered originally by the usfw and it even questioned the heritage of the animals. and i have backed 2 different guys into a corner who are involved in the wolf program and they admitted that every animal is part dog. that's good enough for me. as far as the condors and lead, here is a little equation for you. you can add the numbers as you see fit.

 

there were 694 deer killed in unit 12a last year. per the game and fish numbers for permits allowed, for all hunts, and then calculating it from the kill percentage. don't know how accurate they are, but that's all i could finde. 12a is the unit that seems to cause the most concern with the condor folks. i haven't heard of em crying about 12b or the strip or even the country around the south rim. only 12a. 12b and the strip don't offer a big number of permits anyway, but you are welcome to use those numbers too if that is what it takes to make your case.

 

now subtract the number of deer killed with all copper bullets. i don't know how many, but this number is significant. pure copper bullets are very popular with hunters and account for a very large portion of the total number of hunting bullets sold every year. so i think even you can agree that no deer killed with all copper bullets can be used.

 

most deer are killed with shoulder or rib shots to the vitals. if you listen to the crap the huggers put out they are all gutshot multiple times and the bullets explode into little pieces. but i don't think that is the case. most deer are killed with a decent shot to the vitals. a lot of these bullets are pass through shots where the bullet flies off and lands somewhere else or it stays in the meat, under the skin, on the offside of the shot, and isn't left in the field. it doesn't stay in the offall that is usually left in the field. now subtract that number from the total. use whatever number you want.

 

a few folks pack their deer out whole, especially ones that are killed by the road, and they are dressed out elsewhere and the guts are disposed of elsewhere. this might be a small number, but we aren't talking about a big number to start with, so even if it is just a few, it is significant in the equation. again, use whatever number you want, but subtract it from the total.

 

i've shot a lotta deer. i mean a lot. and i've hit some in the guts. most of the bullets that hit the guts are also pass throughs. well, i won't say most, because i don't know about any but the ones i've seen. but that's my experience. and the bullets usually stay whole. they don't hit bones and stuff that cause them to blow up. again, might be a small number, but it is significant to this equation. subtract it from the total. whatever number you want to use.

 

now, another number you can subtract. coyotes. how many gutpiles do they get rid of? how many bullets do they eat and crap out someplace else? might be a small number again, but it has to happen. subtract that number.

 

how many of these bullets in the guts are eaten by other birds? we'll make it an easy one to use and just include eagles, vultures and ravens. all of which inhabit the same areas that the condors do and they all compete with each other for the tasty, lead contaminated guts. use whatever you want and subtract it.

 

and there's gotta be a few gutpiles they don't find. and quite a few gutpiles that don't end up with bullets in them, etc.

 

now come up with a number from the original 694. you can even round it up to 700. or use whatever number you want. i'm sure the condor people do. so now, how many of these vile, lead contaminated, condor killing gutpiles are there out there? and then the condors must be real careful at picking through and making sure they get all the lead and then making sure it sticks in their gizzards and gets ground up into dust and then kills em. so come up with whatever number you want. it is considerably smaller than the original 694. it will truthfully only be a small fraction of the original number. and that is what is killing all the condors? i don't buy that. so figure up your number. doesn't really matter to me, because i'm a nonbeliever. and no i don't think the earth is flat. and i really don't care where obama was born. but if you figure up just how few bullets are left in gutpiles and think about it a little you might be able to understand where a freethinker with only half a brain might come to the conclusion that if condors truly are getting lead poisoning, they may getting a lot of it elsewhere. i don't where the elsewhere is, but it seems to me that bullets might not be a significant contributor? but that's just me. i tend to work in truths and not listen to folks who have proven time and again that they work in lies. and i could really go along with the condor reintroduction too, if it weren't for the track record of the liars that administer these programs. condors are a wild animal. they aren't a crossbred curr. they are mostly pen raised and stuff, but they are returned to the wild and are making some progress. i spent a long time one day watching some soar around. beautiful animal in flight. but i do not believe that the health of the condor population in general, and the entire "ecosystem" overall, is the true goal of the endangered species act. it might have been when it was started, but it ain't anymore. the same folks wouldn't holler about feral horses, if it were.

 

i know i'm just a dumb, uneducated cowboy that cain't hardly do no reedin' er ritin' er cypherin' and ain't nowhere near as skoold up and educated and smart as you. and i know i'm sposeta just get in lock step with you smart guys and believe what i'm told just because you're smarter than me. but i sorta look at things differnt. i'm all ignernut and think outta the box. in fact, i usually think in a different county than the box is in. i was born at night, but it wasn't last night. and i can add 2 and 2 and come up with 4 every time. believe what you want. but if you believe i'm stupid because i don't believe BS, then you're sellin' me real short. and i'm real glad you chimed in with your superior intelligence. i had to pull the shoes off my mule and trim his feet this morning. he's only half jack a s s and it got me geared up for dealin' with him. sincerely, Lark.

 

 

Aaahhh, the old argument by gibberish, better known as baffle them with bull$h!t. Don't you know by now that only works on "a dumb, uneducated cowboy?"

 

I can't believe you actually wrote all that drivel, especially the parts about "vitals" and such? Were you sober, or did you perhaps relegate the task to your 12-yr. old neighbor? Even a "freethinker with only half a brain" would read it and conclude you couldn't be serious. Perhaps in your case, the "half a brain" is an exaggeration?

 

Anyway, I'll just assume you meant it all as humor for the masses and not waste my time on a serious reply to your drivel.

 

In the meantime, I bet folks here would love to have your recipes for cooking "vitals."

 

Have a nice day.

[Scooter]

I think the government should take all $ spent toward this wolf project and put it towards educating our children.Taking a wounded wolf to a vetrinarian? For Christmas' sake. Wild animals that can't survive die; threatened/endangered or not.

 

Wade, I love ya man, but the Federal Government needs to stay the heck away from educating our children... They've already done irreparable damage. Just use the money to chip away at the $15 trillion...

[Pine Donkey]

I think the government should take all $ spent toward this wolf project and put it towards educating our children.Taking a wounded wolf to a vetrinarian? For Christmas' sake. Wild animals that can't survive die; threatened/endangered or not.

 

Wade, I love ya man, but the Federal Government needs to stay the heck away from educating our children... They've already done irreparable damage. Just use the money to chip away at the $15 trillion...

 

+1 Scooter

[ThomC]

if you want to eat the bull$h!t and drink the treehugger koolaid and puke it up for others to consume, that's your prerogative. but don't get upset when folks who are capable of thinking for themselves won't swallow it along with you. i have read in the official documents offered originally by the usfw and it even questioned the heritage of the animals. and i have backed 2 different guys into a corner who are involved in the wolf program and they admitted that every animal is part dog. that's good enough for me. as far as the condors and lead, here is a little equation for you. you can add the numbers as you see fit.

 

there were 694 deer killed in unit 12a last year. per the game and fish numbers for permits allowed, for all hunts, and then calculating it from the kill percentage. don't know how accurate they are, but that's all i could finde. 12a is the unit that seems to cause the most concern with the condor folks. i haven't heard of em crying about 12b or the strip or even the country around the south rim. only 12a. 12b and the strip don't offer a big number of permits anyway, but you are welcome to use those numbers too if that is what it takes to make your case.

 

now subtract the number of deer killed with all copper bullets. i don't know how many, but this number is significant. pure copper bullets are very popular with hunters and account for a very large portion of the total number of hunting bullets sold every year. so i think even you can agree that no deer killed with all copper bullets can be used.

 

most deer are killed with shoulder or rib shots to the vitals. if you listen to the crap the huggers put out they are all gutshot multiple times and the bullets explode into little pieces. but i don't think that is the case. most deer are killed with a decent shot to the vitals. a lot of these bullets are pass through shots where the bullet flies off and lands somewhere else or it stays in the meat, under the skin, on the offside of the shot, and isn't left in the field. it doesn't stay in the offall that is usually left in the field. now subtract that number from the total. use whatever number you want.

 

a few folks pack their deer out whole, especially ones that are killed by the road, and they are dressed out elsewhere and the guts are disposed of elsewhere. this might be a small number, but we aren't talking about a big number to start with, so even if it is just a few, it is significant in the equation. again, use whatever number you want, but subtract it from the total.

 

i've shot a lotta deer. i mean a lot. and i've hit some in the guts. most of the bullets that hit the guts are also pass throughs. well, i won't say most, because i don't know about any but the ones i've seen. but that's my experience. and the bullets usually stay whole. they don't hit bones and stuff that cause them to blow up. again, might be a small number, but it is significant to this equation. subtract it from the total. whatever number you want to use.

 

now, another number you can subtract. coyotes. how many gutpiles do they get rid of? how many bullets do they eat and crap out someplace else? might be a small number again, but it has to happen. subtract that number.

 

how many of these bullets in the guts are eaten by other birds? we'll make it an easy one to use and just include eagles, vultures and ravens. all of which inhabit the same areas that the condors do and they all compete with each other for the tasty, lead contaminated guts. use whatever you want and subtract it.

 

and there's gotta be a few gutpiles they don't find. and quite a few gutpiles that don't end up with bullets in them, etc.

 

now come up with a number from the original 694. you can even round it up to 700. or use whatever number you want. i'm sure the condor people do. so now, how many of these vile, lead contaminated, condor killing gutpiles are there out there? and then the condors must be real careful at picking through and making sure they get all the lead and then making sure it sticks in their gizzards and gets ground up into dust and then kills em. so come up with whatever number you want. it is considerably smaller than the original 694. it will truthfully only be a small fraction of the original number. and that is what is killing all the condors? i don't buy that. so figure up your number. doesn't really matter to me, because i'm a nonbeliever. and no i don't think the earth is flat. and i really don't care where obama was born. but if you figure up just how few bullets are left in gutpiles and think about it a little you might be able to understand where a freethinker with only half a brain might come to the conclusion that if condors truly are getting lead poisoning, they may getting a lot of it elsewhere. i don't where the elsewhere is, but it seems to me that bullets might not be a significant contributor? but that's just me. i tend to work in truths and not listen to folks who have proven time and again that they work in lies. and i could really go along with the condor reintroduction too, if it weren't for the track record of the liars that administer these programs. condors are a wild animal. they aren't a crossbred curr. they are mostly pen raised and stuff, but they are returned to the wild and are making some progress. i spent a long time one day watching some soar around. beautiful animal in flight. but i do not believe that the health of the condor population in general, and the entire "ecosystem" overall, is the true goal of the endangered species act. it might have been when it was started, but it ain't anymore. the same folks wouldn't holler about feral horses, if it were.

 

i know i'm just a dumb, uneducated cowboy that cain't hardly do no reedin' er ritin' er cypherin' and ain't nowhere near as skoold up and educated and smart as you. and i know i'm sposeta just get in lock step with you smart guys and believe what i'm told just because you're smarter than me. but i sorta look at things differnt. i'm all ignernut and think outta the box. in fact, i usually think in a different county than the box is in. i was born at night, but it wasn't last night. and i can add 2 and 2 and come up with 4 every time. believe what you want. but if you believe i'm stupid because i don't believe BS, then you're sellin' me real short. and i'm real glad you chimed in with your superior intelligence. i had to pull the shoes off my mule and trim his feet this morning. he's only half jack a s s and it got me geared up for dealin' with him. sincerely, Lark.

 

 

Aaahhh, the old argument by gibberish, better known as baffle them with bull$h!t. Don't you know by now that only works on "a dumb, uneducated cowboy?"

 

I can't believe you actually wrote all that drivel, especially the parts about "vitals" and such? Were you sober, or did you perhaps relegate the task to your 12-yr. old neighbor? Even a "freethinker with only half a brain" would read it and conclude you couldn't be serious. Perhaps in your case, the "half a brain" is an exaggeration?

 

Anyway, I'll just assume you meant it all as humor for the masses and not waste my time on a serious reply to your drivel.

 

In the meantime, I bet folks here would love to have your recipes for cooking "vitals."

 

Have a nice day.

 

 

 

WOW did that award go to your head.

[Guest Del]

Lark I've always enjoyed your posts, your humor and your candor. You are always down to earth. It surprises - and disappoints - me that someone so connected to the environment is so quick to just let go of an entire species because it has "run its course." Lets hope that men - outdoorsmen - never run their course. And if so that some "granola" takes interest in preserving us. I don't consider myself a liberal as I've been called. I don't pay much attention to that stuff. I prefer to do what I think is right. Being a strict liberal or conservative - to me anyways - keeps me from voting for whom I think is the best person or the best answer. Of course that's just me. I want the wolves and grizzly bears, and condors to be around for my grandchildren to see in their environment and even hunt or at least have the opportunity to do so.

Have a great holiday everyone.

Del

[.270]

del, that's just what i see as a reality. not that i think it is a good thing at all. they've been hanging by a thread for 50 years and the only way they have made it this long is because of a tremendous amount of human intervention. not all of which is poorly directed either. i just don't see where they are going to make it. the country they need has changed too much. i think it's sad too. same with wolves and grizzlies. but they are gone. extinct.

 

yeah tony, vital. whenever i spell the word vital, i spell it v-i-t-a-l. like vital zone, vital area, vital organs, "hit it in the vitals". it's a fairly common word. is there another way to spell it? please use this superintelligence you have and enlighten me. are you kidding me or is this another one of your smarmy attempts to be cute and smart? i'm really interested in that one. even this mythical 12 year old neighbor you mention knows it. there is an old addage that says it's better to let people think you're stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. maybe you oughta cut and paste that one and put it where you can read it often. one thing about it. you are the absolute king of cut and paste. you even had to cut and paste your response. tell me, have you ever had a thought of your own or do you cut and paste them too? yeah, just an other smarmy response from a talentless, plagerizing jerk that thinks just because he says something, it makes it so, and if anyone questions you then you just cut and paste another smarmy remark. yeah, smarmy. it's a real word. it has your picture by it in the dictionary. it's a few pages before vital. that's v-i-t-a-l. you have literally become a joke. and i'm always sober. i think you are the one that should think about getting a house a little farther from the liquor store. Lark. that's L-a-r-k.

[Arizona Griz]

a lot of animals are no longer truly relevant. Lark.

 

Opinions do vary because I sure don't believe this.

 

 

I want the wolves and grizzly bears, and condors to be around for my grandchildren to see in their environment and even hunt or at least have the opportunity to do so.

 

As do I.

 

 

not that i think it is a good thing at all. they've been hanging by a thread for 50 years and the only way they have made it this long is because of a tremendous amount of human intervention. not all of which is poorly directed either. i just don't see where they are going to make it. the country they need has changed too much. i think it's sad too. same with wolves and grizzlies. but they are gone. extinct.

 

Well they sure aren't extinct yet and I am glad conservation groups are at least making an attempt to keep them and other animals from doing so.

[.270]

i forgot to mention that some people are no longer relevant either. here, i'll save you the trouble of a superintellingent witty remark. "yeah, like you Lark, you're no longer relevant either". there, is that witty enough for ya? kill the wolves. Lark. L-a-r-k.

[BELLOTABUCKS]

when i was kid the hunt regs had numbers on whitetail detailing the decline and the rock bottom numbers and the results of conservation bringing them back. they never would have declined if they weren't hunted to that point. mankind relyed on the meat at first then they became sport. wolves and grizzly were exasperated because they cost ranchers dearly. i see both sides. my dad and i saw a wolf once in 27, and it was one of the coolest days of my life he came so close to our blind, this is something that pioneers experienced and no one else for the longest time until the reintroduction. while i dont share the plight of land owners and my livelyhood doesn't take a hit as theirs does, i do believe as an outdoorsman it is right to replace animals we removed. if the wolves had died off on their own or by natural selection then the history books and museums is where they belong. i am sure we would all love merriams elk roaming the state. my family is from san manuel, when the plant closed the company tore it down and did all they could to return the land to what it was before they built there. call me crazy but i would love to see a wolf while hunting even if it is part dog, it would be purebred had settlers not shot it out, so our bad in my eyes when discussing if they are pure or not. i would love to see grizzly here but not alaskan or wyoming, the oso de plateado, the mexican grizzly, but it was more important for people to be able to ranch the land than to save a species from extinction. how name calling and finger pointing became part of the equation i dont know, what i do know is if your a member of this web site then you love hunting and the outdoors and we all have that in common, the land is public and we share it and we should be able to be open with another hunter if he needs help with a location, its not my secret its our privledge to share and i dont see how we have the right to say which species is allowed to stay and which must go which deserves our conservation and which should be helped to extinction. long live hunting!

[gearsnagger]

The Mexican Wolf is an extinct species , DNA testing has proven this. Any discussions about this topic should be about how we (meaning sportsmen&true conservationist's) are allowing this introduction of a high-bred wolfxdog gain control of vast parcels of Arizona's land and the high jacking of other programs that were in place before these con men swindled us! This is not a "reintroduction of a species" it is an introduction of a viable hybred into a highly modified ecosystem...... Arizona is nothing like it was 100 or 200 years ago when real Mexican Wolves roamed the land!

I talked to an attorney and he speculated that if the DNA testing of a wolf that is shot shows that it has a percentage of dog then it would be grounds to dismiss any charges of shooting an endangered species.... Shooting wild cur/dogs is legal! :blink:

As far as losing or exterminating any species like Grizzly's , Eagles , real Wolves , ect. - I am against it , I am also against urban sprawl which is responsible for most ecological issues! As Lark .270 has already said "It's about control"!

@Bellotabucks - keep in mind that the so called wolf you saw with your dad was not really a wolf , it was a curr wolfxdog!

I do a fair amount of hunting all over Arizona and I will shoot one of these currs if given an opportunity!

.... Maybe I already have shot one or two!

[Guest Del]

when i was kid the hunt regs had numbers on whitetail detailing the decline and the rock bottom numbers and the results of conservation bringing them back. they never would have declined if they weren't hunted to that point. mankind relyed on the meat at first then they became sport. wolves and grizzly were exasperated because they cost ranchers dearly. i see both sides. my dad and i saw a wolf once in 27, and it was one of the coolest days of my life he came so close to our blind, this is something that pioneers experienced and no one else for the longest time until the reintroduction. while i dont share the plight of land owners and my livelyhood doesn't take a hit as theirs does, i do believe as an outdoorsman it is right to replace animals we removed. if the wolves had died off on their own or by natural selection then the history books and museums is where they belong. i am sure we would all love merriams elk roaming the state. my family is from san manuel, when the plant closed the company tore it down and did all they could to return the land to what it was before they built there. call me crazy but i would love to see a wolf while hunting even if it is part dog, it would be purebred had settlers not shot it out, so our bad in my eyes when discussing if they are pure or not. i would love to see grizzly here but not alaskan or wyoming, the oso de plateado, the mexican grizzly, but it was more important for people to be able to ranch the land than to save a species from extinction. how name calling and finger pointing became part of the equation i dont know, what i do know is if your a member of this web site then you love hunting and the outdoors and we all have that in common, the land is public and we share it and we should be able to be open with another hunter if he needs help with a location, its not my secret its our privledge to share and i dont see how we have the right to say which species is allowed to stay and which must go which deserves our conservation and which should be helped to extinction. long live hunting!

 

Good point BELLOTABUCKS.