wolves on the Strip and the Kaibab

[bonuspointjohn]

Recent meetings being held by the USFWS have led to the attached letter from the Arizona Deer Association. The feds are planning expanding the wolves from just the Blue to all across the Southwest. Please read the document attached. The future of all of hunting in Arizona as we know it is in jeopardy if this comes to pass as expected. BPJ

Grand Plan for Wolves.pdf

[.270]

i'm sick of sayin' it, but i told ya so. from it's inception, anyone with any intelligence could tell that this @%$#$&*(!in' wolf program has nothing to to with wolves and everything to do with closing off public land to the public and taking away any private land that may be impacted by it. where was all this outrage when they started this thing? i remember a little bit of protest but everyone figured they would sacrifice the little bit they wanted for the extinct wolves and they'd leave the rest of everyone's honeyholes alone. don't seem like it's gonna work out that way does it? oh yeah, and besides, a lot of the land they wanted was in new mex anyway, and who cares about new mex? as disgusted as i am with the usfw and the huggers, it is nothing compared to the utter disdain i have for the azgfd for jumping on the wagon because they new it would mean a lotta money for them, and the usfs and blm for just sitting around like dumbasses like they always do and for a lot of hunters who think it is a cool thing to have these d a m n curs, and for token protest by all the different so called sportsmen groups. if anyone would have read the initial info that was available, like i did, and did a little arithemtic, like i did, they could see that there aren't enough elk and deer in the units in the intial plan to support the number of wolves they want. much less have any leftover to hunt. all you guys that just came off the archery elk hunt. did ya maybe sorta have a hard time calling anything in? seems like i read about 100 different posts on this site alone about how crummy of a season it was. ya know a big reason why it was that way? because wolves hear elk whistle and it's a dinner bell for em. the elk ain't as dumb as ya think and they learn that every time they whistle a buncha wolves attack em so they shut up a bunch. that ain't the only reason, but it had an impact, i guarantee you. my cousin can't even use his dogs if he has wolves anywhere close because they hear his dogs and come in and kill them. if this thing goes unchecked hunting is over. everywhere. look at the restrictions they are trying to install north of the colorado now bacuse of the california buzzards. at least they are real animals and not some crossbreed like these so called wolves, but i guarantee you they are getting the lead in their diet from something other than bullets left in gut piles. anyone involved in the endangered species recovery is a d a m n liar. they have to agree to go along with what they know as lies from the get go and still say they agree with it when they really know better. it's a rotten deal and we're the ones who hafta pay. well, us and all the deer and elk and other animals that get ate up by em. Lark.

[Pine Donkey]

Lark hits the nail on the head again!

[gearsnagger]

It's time to put our own wolf program into action - Let's call it "Shoot & Shovel" no braggin rights no pic's to post just the feeling of doing whats right in spite of what the "experts" are enforcing!

Look into UC Davis predator/lion studies and you will find they are behind this!

I think we should reintroduce the "Golden Grizzly" back into all of California , let them graze on all the worthless )#@!^?/* MF'n humans that have invaded their home range!

F them wolves - kill em on sight!

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

TR would roll over in his grave... Ignorant Liberal Feds... educated beyond their intellegence. #%@*^$#@!!!!

[youngbuck]

I honestly don't think GearSnagger is too far off. One of these days a group of people is going to draw a line in the sand. A lot of guys have seen the whole wolf thing play out in Idaho and Montana. The video that Tony posted here a while back, Cry Wolf, did a really good job of shedding light on the economic impact of re-introduced wolves besides the impact on wildlife. There will come a point in time when people will take the matter into their own hands. I sure hope the "pro wolf" side realizes this before they spend a bunch of my tax dollars on a wolf that will end up shot. I don't think that is going to happen. I would bet they are going to spend all kinds of money to get wolves put into more areas, just to have people decide to get rid of them before they get out of hand.

[.270]

the problem is the aren't educated. they're indoctronated. intelligence has nothing to do with this, it is all about control and it goes deeper than just these stupid wolves. it's a concerted effort to control everything.

 

i don't agree with the shoot and shovel stuff. if it happens, it happens i guess, but broadcasting it all the time just gives em ammo to use. this should have been fought a lot harder from the get go and folks should have spent more time getting deep into what the real reasons for this are. Lark.

[4Falls]

+1 for everything Lark has said.

 

I can even remember language from USFWS (or some other gov't agency) stating that if the wolf program goes like they want it to they wont need hunting as a management tool anymore.

[gearsnagger]

The AZF&G is overloaded with biologists that have/and agree with the "Green" agenda! One sided "studies" are done by these "educated" "experts" and the non hunters accept and pass law's on these studies! Non hunters out number both the anti hunters and pro hunters ten fold! So yes Lark is correct in saying it is a matter of education! The only way to have won this battle or to win the votes of the Non Hunter majority is by educating them through the Media. The question is how do we do this?

As hunters we need to hire and fund biologists and prodrams to do honest studies on wolf reintroductions and then use this to counter the "azg&d experts". The general public see's hunting and hunters as stupid rednecks who poached the Buffalo to the brink of extinction! The Biologists working in these Wolf programs are "educated" "Scientists" much more advanced than a mere redeck! So the Non hunting folks do not support the pro hunters. Untill this changes "Shoot & Shovel" will have to do ..... Just don't get caught!

[.270]

where everyone screwed up was in even negotiating with the dang terrorists. and nobody would get together and unite. the deer hunters had one agenda, the elk hunters had another, the bow hunters another, rifle hunters too etc, etc, etc. and everyone was against the ranchers. the hunters and the huggers. if everyone would have closed ranks and fought a loud, screaming, mean and focused fight i honestly think it could have been won. but no, everyone negotiated what they thought was best for them and not what was best for everyone. nobody could look past a couple years and couldn't see the big picture. at least as far as the hunting guys. the agriculture folks knew what was up because they had seen it all in one form or another for decades and knew if it ever got started it would snowball and knew they were an easy target and easy to villify. you can't have more than 2 sides in something like this and if you ain't all the way on the right side then you're aiding the enemy. where the fight needs to be now is to get the azgfd to tell the usfw to go to heck, like they did in new mexico, and walk away from it. if we could one of the integral parts of the equation out of it, it would be a big help. the entire program basically relys on the azgfd for enforcement and from what i can tell they do most of the real work. trying to turn the feds is a waste of time at this point. but i honestly think the azgfd is looking for a way out as it is. a pointed, concentrated, mean, dirty effort needs to hammered into them hard. the usfw and wolf people just go around and pat each other on the back, like all burrocrats, and never do anything constructive. they are master liars and manipulators of evidence and hiders of truth, but they don't know much else. in order to win, everyone has to be on one side or the other. folks need to decide which side they are on and get on it. if you like wolves, get the heck on that side of the fence, completely. quit thinking you can be a sportsman and still be in favor of this program. get on one side 100% and consider the other side the enemy. decide what brand you're gonna ride for and don't even think of ridin' the fence. Lark.

[Coues79]

I was recently at a workshop hosted by the G&F and while the overall basis behind the workshop was to explain the effects on wildlife after wildfire, the wolf reintroduction did come up. In the meantime of the workshop, there was a bunch of college students that were there involved in what I believe was an elk survey. Over this time, they discussed the wolf program to these students; here is why it irks me.

 

First, you have to understand that the game and fish is funded through tag, license and fishing sales; maybe there's more but that's what they were discussing in detail at this workshop. So, you have these g&f folks talking about how much decline we have seen in this state as far as hunting and fishing recruitment and retention goes. Something like back in the 60's or 70's there was 51% of the population in AZ that hunted or fished, now we only have 21% that do. I haven't ran the numbers to see what the ratio is comparitive to the population increase from the then until now, but they were pretty much shouting how we need to get more recruitment in; wonder what that reason is for? More money?

 

Well, it doesn't too much make sense in that what they are trying to do with the reintroduction of this dang wolf is bringing in a predator species into areas that have been and are impacted by the drought that we are in. Heck, there was even discussion as to how there is opinion from well known scientists to suggest that this drought is equivalent to the one in the 1200's that drove out the Anasazis....

 

So, taking this idea into perspective, we have g&f expressing their knowledge of how animal numbers are down because of the drought (look at pretty much any hunting unit report and this is the overall reason for the decline in game numbers) yet, we have game and fish pushing to reintroduce an extremely efficient predator into these areas that have been severely impacted by the drought.

 

 

The thing that doesn't make sense is this..... why in the heck are we reintroducing a species back into the state, albeit a predator, when animal numbers are down in general? Remember, the game and fish is funded by tag and license sales. What is going to happen if or when this species comes back full scale and begins to severly impact the population of animals? What is going to happen to those tag and license sales? Are they going to go up or down? Is the revenue going to increase or decrease? Are these game and fish folks that keep pushing for this animal to be reintroduced gonna have a job or not? Where are these folks that are teaching these college kids about how "wonderful" this species is gonna be, when these kids coming out of college push for more legislation and protection of these animals?

 

You see, I just don't get the game and fish thinking when they are so "for" this idea, yet its the bullet that's gonna shoot them in the foot when the tag numbers decrease, license sales decrease and hunter retention/recruitment is basically down into the single digits. Doesn't make one dang bit of sense to me. I seriously wonder if these folks in the g&f realize what they're doing to their own with this..... stupid as heck.

 

I have seen the impacts of lower animal numbers, hunter retention and recruitment first hand. I have a brother who has basically given up hunting because of the disgust he has had seeing his kids not be able to draw tags in areas that we used to hunt year in and year out. It takes a toll on a guy when his kids don't understand why they can't hunt like their dad did or in places that their dad grew up hunting. It sucks.

 

Lookin' down the road a few years, I know I am looking forward to watching all of my kids take their first deer when they turn 10, just like my brothers and parents did with me. I hope like heck that these loonies in the game and fish would see what they're doing to the great hunting that this state has. These dang wildlife have enough to worry about in surviving. There's enough predation already as well as enough concern about the severity and long lasting drought that we are in. WHY BRING THIS BACK? WHY? If we're gonna pick and choose what we get to bring back, heck, let's bring the dang Grizzly back too. Why stop at wolves? Bring em' all back! Yeah, that's the mindset that some of these folks in the game and fish have. Unreal, when they are going to lose jobs because of the drop in tag and license sales when these animals get going full bore.

 

On another note, Paxon was there speaking as well. I know a lot of folks dislike this guy but I can tell you that he pretty much told his view on how he feels about this whole deal. Expressed his desires to get rid of the environmental BS, go in and get these woods logged and thinned, put a sincere effort into hunter recruitment and retention, allow ranchers the ability to help with efforts to help make our forests healthy again and seemed to be one of the only people that really shared values that I have across the board.

 

Not all of the game and fish folks feel this way. Unfortunately, what I feel is that the ones that do are the ones that really matter when it comes to making decisions. All of this wolf stuff is pure BS and won't do any good for any of the folks that frequent our land and pay the bills for the game and fish. It sucks cause I really hope I get to share the woods and my experiences of hunting with my children when the time comes.

 

Shoot and shovel stuff needs to quit being discussed out loud... we're hunters and should abide by the laws that are in place. If you're gonna do it then sobeit. Don't give any more ammunition for the environmentalists to hold over our heads. If you think that you'll get to hunt wolves when all the other numbers of animals are down, think again. They'll be too much protection of them. They wouldn't allocate enough tags to even make a dent in their population anyways. Just all around a real crappy deal that has me losing sleep at night over this garbage.

[sjvcon]

As usual, Lark has some really good points. You have to be on one side or the other. You have to take a stand. Best thing we can do at this point is make the Game and Fish aware that the Sportsman in this State didn't support the program in the first place, and won't support it now. Maybe if we are loud enough, someone will listen.

 

Lot of good points on the fees and jobs at AZGFD from Coues79. They are going to work themselves right out of a job by supporting more wolf re-introduction. Really dumb ... and VERY uneducated.

[bonuspointjohn]

Guys..... I have read most of your responses and there is one point that needs to be made. The AZGFD and the commission do NOT want to increase the wolf population. The CBD (Center for Biological Diversity) in a lawsuit that was won by them against the USFWS has pushed the USFWS into this situation. The AZGFD is a very 2nd rate player in this mess and has no control. The opinion by the chief of the department is that New Mexico screwed themselves by pulling out. They now have no say and will have to watch what transpires. The feeling in the department is that even though they are treated like the red headed step child, at least they know what is going on. There will be opportunity to comment and another one of the fictituous Environmental Impact Statements will be brought out. There were plenty of statements that they made in the first one in 1995. These have ALL turned out to be erroneous and the USFWS can be called on it. The point of the publishing the letter that I did was to let you know what is going on, where the situation is at the moment and I promise that the ADA will keep you informed in the future. There are a lot of people who are banding together to fight this thing and I personally feel that we have a leg to stand on this time around. The scientists who wrote this thing work for Ted Turner and his Endangered Species bunch. Base on the plummeting deer herds in Arizona over the past 25 years, we cannot have a major predator brought anywhere near the Strip or the Kaibab or the Rim country. Keep the faith, we will not let it happen without a huge fight. We are soliciting help from our Congressional delegation as well, so be aware that is in the works. How we each respond to the wolf issue is a lot like the old boot legger days... The feds wanted one thing, the people wanted another.... we know who won that battle. Anyone for a drink?...BPJ

[Coues79]

Guys..... I have read most of your responses and there is one point that needs to be made. The AZGFD and the commission do NOT want to increase the wolf population. The CBD (Center for Biological Diversity) in a lawsuit that was won by them against the USFWS has pushed the USFWS into this situation. The AZGFD is a very 2nd rate player in this mess and has no control. The opinion by the chief of the department is that New Mexico screwed themselves by pulling out. They now have no say and will have to watch what transpires. The feeling in the department is that even though they are treated like the red headed step child, at least they know what is going on. There will be opportunity to comment and another one of the fictituous Environmental Impact Statements will be brought out. There were plenty of statements that they made in the first one in 1995. These have ALL turned out to be erroneous and the USFWS can be called on it. The point of the publishing the letter that I did was to let you know what is going on, where the situation is at the moment and I promise that the ADA will keep you informed in the future. There are a lot of people who are banding together to fight this thing and I personally feel that we have a leg to stand on this time around. The scientists who wrote this thing work for Ted Turner and his Endangered Species bunch. Base on the plummeting deer herds in Arizona over the past 25 years, we cannot have a major predator brought anywhere near the Strip or the Kaibab or the Rim country. Keep the faith, we will not let it happen without a huge fight. We are soliciting help from our Congressional delegation as well, so be aware that is in the works. How we each respond to the wolf issue is a lot like the old boot legger days... The feds wanted one thing, the people wanted another.... we know who won that battle. Anyone for a drink?...BPJ

 

I believe what you say for the most part BPJ. What is evident here is kinda what Lark mentioned. Get on one side of the fence 100%. The messages and attitudes displayed were that of liking the fact that wolves are here and wanting to see the numbers increase from my observations. This is intermixed with the idea that the G&F are against the wolf reintroduction and not wanting to see their numbers increase. Same dept. yet folks are displaying opposite sides and ideas to this matter.

 

It ain't no joke and I for one ain't one to bash the G&F all the time nor do I want to. I know there's good folks in the dept. and I feel that this commission has done a good job with some difficult decisions here lately with all the wildfires, antelope fiasco, reduction in turkey permits etc. It would sure be nice to see the commissions ideas filtered down through the dept. so that they look united and of the same beliefs.

[.270]

i hafta disagree a little with you. the azgfd gets a pile o' money every year to help administer this program. they have mulitple folks assigned to this program and they get $$$ from the feds to that work. they pay their wages, buy their fuel, trucks, equipment, everything for the program with fed money. they have a real interest in it. and i have never read or heard one word, officially or unofficially, from the azgfd that they are against this program. but on the contrary i have only read, heard and been told, officially and unofficially, that they are on the side of the wolves. i know a lot of folks who have been impacted a h e l l of a lot more than all of us combined by this program, who have to deal with the azgfd and their enthusiastic support for this program. my cousin had a meeting at his home on eagle creek with every involved agency. at his kitchen table. the azgfd, usfw, usfs, blm, wolf lovers, they all had multiple offical reps there. it was an official meeting. the only agency that showed "ANY" support for his concerns was the district ranger for the usfs and shortly after that they made him retire. the azgfd gave him no support what so ever. if the game and fish doesn't like the program they had the same opportunity to provide input that everyone else. except their words would have carried real weight and could have had a what sportsmen could consider as a positive impact. but instead they were all for it. with no concern for the sportsmen, ranchers, campers, anglers, hikers, etc that are negatively impacted by this program. you may be right. they may not want to increase the wolf numbers but until they make an official statement saying that, i won't belive it. and if they do, i'll have a hard time believing it. and the fact remains that they went along in lock step with the initial program and have supported it at every turn. if the azgfd wants to impress me, then take a stand and take a stand that is on the side of the sportsmen and get the h e l l off the fence. it also is upsetting that now that the crown jewel of deer hunting is in danger of being impacted by this, all the sudden it is a tragedy that has to be avoided. the country that is already impacted by it pretty neat too. where was all the concern then? there are more politics involved in this crap that can be written here. dig into it. why didn't they realease them in the southeast part of the state, where they thrived? too much private land, that's why. instead they release them up on the blue and surrounding areas where they ain't a lot and they can pretty much have free rein. that's just one little coincidence. and the fact remains that they didn't have one d a m n wolf to start with. everyone of these animals are part dog and they are inbred to the point they are retarded. wonder how long it is gonna be before hip displacia crops up and we have to pay for a buncha hip replacement on wolf/dog crosses. if you turned any kinda crossbred dog there is loose they would have wild, self sufficient packs by now. but not these things. they will never be more than pen raised, inbreds. this whole thing should have been avoided and if enough folks would have been willing to put up a mean, hard hitting fight, things may be a lot different and if the azgfd woulda been on our side to start with it would have made a big difference. Lark.