wolves on the Strip and the Kaibab

[bonuspointjohn]

i hafta disagree a little with you. the azgfd gets a pile o' money every year to help administer this program. they have mulitple folks assigned to this program and they get $$$ from the feds to that work. they pay their wages, buy their fuel, trucks, equipment, everything for the program with fed money. they have a real interest in it. and i have never read or heard one word, officially or unofficially, from the azgfd that they are against this program. but on the contrary i have only read, heard and been told, officially and unofficially, that they are on the side of the wolves. i know a lot of folks who have been impacted a h e l l of a lot more than all of us combined by this program, who have to deal with the azgfd and their enthusiastic support for this program. my cousin had a meeting at his home on eagle creek with every involved agency. at his kitchen table. the azgfd, usfw, usfs, blm, wolf lovers, they all had multiple offical reps there. it was an official meeting. the only agency that showed "ANY" support for his concerns was the district ranger for the usfs and shortly after that they made him retire. the azgfd gave him no support what so ever. if the game and fish doesn't like the program they had the same opportunity to provide input that everyone else. except their words would have carried real weight and could have had a what sportsmen could consider as a positive impact. but instead they were all for it. with no concern for the sportsmen, ranchers, campers, anglers, hikers, etc that are negatively impacted by this program. you may be right. they may not want to increase the wolf numbers but until they make an official statement saying that, i won't belive it. and if they do, i'll have a hard time believing it. and the fact remains that they went along in lock step with the initial program and have supported it at every turn. if the azgfd wants to impress me, then take a stand and take a stand that is on the side of the sportsmen and get the h e l l off the fence. it also is upsetting that now that the crown jewel of deer hunting is in danger of being impacted by this, all the sudden it is a tragedy that has to be avoided. the country that is already impacted by it pretty neat too. where was all the concern then? there are more politics involved in this crap that can be written here. dig into it. why didn't they realease them in the southeast part of the state, where they thrived? too much private land, that's why. instead they release them up on the blue and surrounding areas where they ain't a lot and they can pretty much have free rein. that's just one little coincidence. and the fact remains that they didn't have one d a m n wolf to start with. everyone of these animals are part dog and they are inbred to the point they are retarded. wonder how long it is gonna be before hip displacia crops up and we have to pay for a buncha hip replacement on wolf/dog crosses. if you turned any kinda crossbred dog there is loose they would have wild, self sufficient packs by now. but not these things. they will never be more than pen raised, inbreds. this whole thing should have been avoided and if enough folks would have been willing to put up a mean, hard hitting fight, things may be a lot different and if the azgfd woulda been on our side to start with it would have made a big difference. Lark.

[bonuspointjohn]

I understand a lot of what Lark says. The whole basket however came to the AZGFD door and they could either be the red headed step child to the USFWS or be on the outside looking in. Please understand that the Commission gives direction and marching orders to the department. Look who the Commissioners were for a strong 5 year period... Governor Napolitano appointments, she is now in charge of Homeland Security. Her appointments were solidly in the wolf corner. The whole direction of the department is being changed by the new commissioners. Commissioners Husted, Harris and Mansell are really after sportsmen's interests. After Commissioner Freeman leaves, we will be rid of the Green Guard that she appointed. The future for Commission appointments has not looked this good in a long time. I hope that all of you who have read the letter that we wrote from the ADA will pass it on to your friends and they to their friends. Too often sportsmen have avoided politics like the plague..... and it has been to our detriment. We cannot get a fair shake from the big newspapers here in town, nor in Tucson. The only thing we can do is to build awareness in the rural communities and get those papers to ridicule placing more predators in areas that are marginal at best for deer and controlled by hunt success for elk. I sit in meetings at least 5 nights a month and this topic is covered at almost all of them. We will not let the future be dictated this time like it was last time. If we have to sue the feds, so be it. The CBD and Sierra Club have made vast fortunes by filing mountains of lawsuits. I think it is time for us to do so as well...BPJ

[gearsnagger]

I understand a lot of what Lark says. The whole basket however came to the AZGFD door and they could either be the red headed step child to the USFWS or be on the outside looking in. Please understand that the Commission gives direction and marching orders to the department. Look who the Commissioners were for a strong 5 year period... Governor Napolitano appointments, she is now in charge of Homeland Security. Her appointments were solidly in the wolf corner. The whole direction of the department is being changed by the new commissioners. Commissioners Husted, Harris and Mansell are really after sportsmen's interests. After Commissioner Freeman leaves, we will be rid of the Green Guard that she appointed. The future for Commission appointments has not looked this good in a long time. I hope that all of you who have read the letter that we wrote from the ADA will pass it on to your friends and they to their friends. Too often sportsmen have avoided politics like the plague..... and it has been to our detriment. We cannot get a fair shake from the big newspapers here in town, nor in Tucson. The only thing we can do is to build awareness in the rural communities and get those papers to ridicule placing more predators in areas that are marginal at best for deer and controlled by hunt success for elk. I sit in meetings at least 5 nights a month and this topic is covered at almost all of them. We will not let the future be dictated this time like it was last time. If we have to sue the feds, so be it. The CBD and Sierra Club have made vast fortunes by filing mountains of lawsuits. I think it is time for us to do so as well...BPJ

I agree - Especially about the lawsuit issues - Fight fire with fire!

Keep in mind that the master plan of the Greenies (pro wolfers included)is to restore as much public lands to wilderness areas with limited access and to merge all of the concerned agency's into one !!!! Similar to what created Homeland Security... Streamlining is the catch word in big government...

[.270]

this happened years before janet the lumberjack was gov. Lark.

[coueschaser3]

It's time to put our own wolf program into action - Let's call it "Shoot & Shovel" no braggin rights no pic's to post just the feeling of doing whats right in spite of what the "experts" are enforcing!

Look into UC Davis predator/lion studies and you will find they are behind this!

I think we should reintroduce the "Golden Grizzly" back into all of California , let them graze on all the worthless )#@!^?/* MF'n humans that have invaded their home range!

F them wolves - kill em on sight!

 

 

 

SHHHHHH! HAHA

[sjvcon]

Didn't realize they were hybrids. Guess it's a good thing they don't look like this one. Apparently, this gal was bowhunting in Idaho and this beast charged her ... she had just enough time to drop her bow and put a .44 slug in it's head. "Wolves don't attack people..." MY A _ _ !!!!!!!!!!!! This thing is HUGE. And this is the third attack I've heard of in the last year.

 

 

[.270]

every so called mexican gray they have has dog dna. from what i remember reading, they had one wolf that they felt was pure bred. the others were all part dog of various percentages. been a long time since i read up on that part, but that's how i remember it. and they started with only few animals, so everything is inbred as heck. they have to innoculate them for parvo and other diseases that don't attack wild wolves. when they have a litter, they have to catch em and give em all puppy shots and boosters and everything else. for life. sound like wild animals to you if they have to round them up on a regular basis for shots? a lot of the litters are destroyed because the dad was a cow dog, because the "wolves" don't always have much interest in females in heat. i saw a photo of a cow dog and a wolf "hung up". there are so many stupid things going on with this program that it's makes a guy sick if he really investigates it. if the azgfd would make a stand with the sportsmen, i think it would be a real positive step. Lark.

[couesobsession]

To go along w/what gearsnagger said, there is a saying in Wyoming among ranchers and hunters around the Yellowstone wolf reintroduction area called the three S's. Shoot. Shovel. Shut up.

 

 

[.270]

i don't watch a lotta tv. some news, football, maybe the world series. the western channel. south park and a few other documentaries. and not a lotta hunting shows. they are horrible for the most part. but i still try sometimes. in the past week or 2 tho, i've seen 3 different shows that the bulk of the show was about wolves and the negative impact they are having in the areas where they have been established. tonight i watched some guy named shawn michaels. dude with a pony tail. anyway, only reason i watched it is because it said something about the wolf problem on the preview deal. for once one of these stupid showw was a real interesting and well done program. 2 things stuck out. 1. in the states affected by the canadien wolf introduction (don't call it re-introduction. the original wolves in this area are extinct) into the yellowstone area. anyway, the game and fish departments are really involved in trying to manage the wolf and are really trying hard to beat the feds and get control of things before it gets outta hand. well, even more outta hand. it looks to me like there has been so much damage done that they not ever be able to. 2. one stat said that in some place called the lolo area, in 1998 there were like 26,000 elk. today, there are 1300. said if you took an area the size of manhattan and put elk in it by what the population would be per square mile in the lolo, there would be 23 elk. i've been to manhattan. it's a fair siezed chunk o' real estate. it ain't no blue wilderness or the strip, but there is a buncha land there. this is spooky stuff. if you can even touch the fence, get away from it. get on one side or the other and stay there. and lets see what we can do about getting our game and fish department on the same side as us. Lark.

[dzell]

The reasons these organizations get there way is because they show up intimidate there vocal they dont back down and they will dang sure protest. We all sit around and talk like there a bunch of sissies and idiots. Guess what these sissies have us all running scared they've obviously out smarted us because they have enough people snowed to believe there rite to the point that even when they lose it doesn't cost them a penny. The old timers a lot of the time like to blame the younger generation for this type of crap but where the heck was everyone when the country started moving this direction probably not doing something about it. So hears the deal this crap gets approved everyone makes a half effort at fighting it and lose again and then they have a big gay parade out in the woods and they watch the wolves be released take pictures feed it to the t.v. they look like hero's while we the losers sit at the computer crying about all the wolves. When what should happen is everyone who can show up and not let them basterds out of there vehicles. They would do it to you they've done it before. If you think game and fish aint for this wolf crap I will call you a fool tell they prove other wise fishing in the area I live was destroyed by them and these organizations for some minnows and sucker fish they want all the bass and other game fish gone to the point that they killed all the fish in the cow tanks on the mountain that feeds fossil creek so they can have fish that your not allowed to catch except for 2 or 3 months out of the year hows that for increasing opportunity and recruting anglers. Dont kid yourself enough is enough and its time to step it up and fight to win instead of fighting to say we fought if we would do that maybe good things could happen.

[Jimmer Negamanee]

So is the answer no wolves anywhere?

 

That doesn’t seem like a very satisfying answer to my tree-hugging self.

 

As for those who advocate for the 3 Ss (not that anyone on here would do that), they are advocating for common criminals.

 

Civil disobedience is one thing, in the words of MLK Jr., “t was practiced superbly by the early Christians, who were willing to face hungry lions and the excruciating pain of chopping blocks rather than submit to certain unjust laws of the Roman Empire. To a degree, academic freedom is a reality today because Socrates practiced civil disobedience. In our own nation, the Boston Tea Party represented a massive act of civil disobedience” but, at the same time, “[o]ne who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.”

 

To me, those who sneak around and break laws they don’t personally agree with while trying desperately not to get caught are not advancing their cause. They’re simply committing crimes.

 

I don’t see a difference between the 3 Ss and using desert bighorn sheep for target practice off the deck of a boat. Both are illegal and both are wrong, IMHO.

 

But that’s just me. Luckily, on CWT.com we have a diversity of opinions. Hearing the other side of an issue either makes us adjust our opinions or strengthens our beliefs. Either way, we win.

[gearsnagger]

So is the answer no wolves anywhere?

 

That doesn’t seem like a very satisfying answer to my tree-hugging self.

 

As for those who advocate for the 3 Ss (not that anyone on here would do that), they are advocating for common criminals.

 

Civil disobedience is one thing, in the words of MLK Jr., “t was practiced superbly by the early Christians, who were willing to face hungry lions and the excruciating pain of chopping blocks rather than submit to certain unjust laws of the Roman Empire. To a degree, academic freedom is a reality today because Socrates practiced civil disobedience. In our own nation, the Boston Tea Party represented a massive act of civil disobedience” but, at the same time, “[o]ne who breaks an unjust law must do so openly, lovingly, and with a willingness to accept the penalty. I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.”

 

To me, those who sneak around and break laws they don’t personally agree with while trying desperately not to get caught are not advancing their cause. They’re simply committing crimes.

 

I don’t see a difference between the 3 Ss and using desert bighorn sheep for target practice off the deck of a boat. Both are illegal and both are wrong, IMHO.

 

But that’s just me. Luckily, on CWT.com we have a diversity of opinions. Hearing the other side of an issue either makes us adjust our opinions or strengthens our beliefs. Either way, we win.

 

MLK , Socrates and feeding christians to lions have no resemblance to using frivolous law suits to manipulate the the government to "introduce" dog/wolf cur's into our public lands! The three S program will hopefully keep the cur's at bay and let the wolfhuggers know we mean buisness! Tea Party ...... Good comparison!

MLK eh.... Personally I think we should shoot 6 more and take off an entire week!

Could it be possible that the reason the goal of 100 wild wolves roaming the Blue hasn't been met is because the SSS program is taking care of biz... ? I'm sure the wolf huggers won't admit to that! Any one who shoots one of the Mexican currs is my hero!

[.270]

the biggest part of the problem is attorneys. it truly is. the way this endangered species stuff is set up, even if the treehuggers lose the suit, their attorney's fees are paid by the gov't. so it's literally win, win, win, win, win for the attorneys. what attorney isn't going to jump at the chance to get paid even if they lose? i didn't know this until one of the anti wolf shows i saw awhile back. they talked about it and then i did a little more research, and that's the way it is. i thought all along that the anti's had all this hollywood money and whatever and that is what they filed the suits with. and it helps to get em started, but the gov't gives em our tax money to sue the gov't with. that is where the problem lies. doesn't matter any, what is best for the land, all that matters is that attorneys make money. as far the answer? the answer is to give the states the right to manage wildlife, all of it, even the wolves. don't have to kill em all. be a good idea, but ya don't have to. but they have to be managed. no matter what anyone thinks, there ain't any wilderness left. there are a few places that ain't got a road or a powerline or town in em, but they are surrounded by highways, fences, towns, canals. there is no continious wilderness where wildlife can wander unrestricted anywhere in the lower 48. each little area has to be managed. these lawyers don't care about that. they care about $$$$. Alaska has wilderness. a bunch of it. and they manage the heck outta wolves to keep them from destroying everything. sound management by dedicated game bioligists who are interested in all wildlife is the answer. not attorneys or their stupid toadys, the treehuggers. that is why the azgfd has to get off the fence. Lark.