Sweet and sour 2011 archery elk hunt in unit 1

[Sam]

Lots of emotions ran through my mind as I read. Excitement for you, your brother and Dad for being successful of your hunt and staying with it after two very unfortunate events. Anger that two individuals could steal someone's elk. Sadness for the future of hunting. I too am not all that old, 43, but the good "old days" seem to be coming out of my mouth quite often. Not only in regards to hunting ethics, but in regards to society as a whole. Not sure what to think about the future, but everyone reading your post will have a little bit more morality instilled in them. Oh yea, also a little jealousy, I wish I had an elk tag this year:).

[huntlines]

great write up!

congrats on the success! 3 very nice bulls!

sucks someone would do that!

I have heard stories of this happening.... but thought they were just stories because no one would really take an animal someone else shot and claim it as there own!!!???? It may sound as if things are worse but part of it is the fact there is this forum to tell the stories so we here so much more about it. There are scumbags throughout the world....sad to say; even in hunting! maybe next hunt take pictures of all the other camps/vehicles and if it happens again you can see who pulled out and hunt them down! j/k

 

james

 

This isn't a bad idea really. At least take pictures of license plates and vehicles. It would be a starting point if something is to ever happen. May not go over well but there is nothing illegal about taking pictures in a public area. If they see you doing it just might make them think twice before doing something stupid. The more I think about this the more I like it!

 

Thanks

[Str8Shot]

Good story. How do you know the elk were dead when the people "stole" them? I have been in the other people shoes once before. I found a bull hit too far back with no hunter to be found. Searched and searched and couldn't find anyone who had shot a bull. With a bull suffering and will soon die, what do you do? I finished him off and ended my hunt. I don't feel bad about it at all.

 

I agree though, if it is dead then call the fish and game, or locate the hunter. I hate scumbag hunters just as much as the rest of you.

 

I was afraid that unit would turn into problems with as many tags as are in there now.

 

Well to answer your question I know for sure my fathers elk was dead. The hit he placed on his bull was square in the scenter of the liver. The blood in the bulls bed was all dried up and there was no new fresh blood anywhere. Same for mine this year other than my hit was low and at the base of the liver. The gut pile was in his bed with no new fresh blood. If these elk were still alive when the perps found them then I should have seen fresh blood and there should have been another wound in the vitals left behind. No one would have shot the bull in the head with archery equipment. Sure they could have cut his throat, hit a artery in the neck or hind quarters but then there should have been fresh blood. One other thing, our trucks were parked not a quarter mile from where these guys drug the bull out to the main road. If they wanted to find the rightfull hunter they wouldn't have to look far. No these guys got out of the area as fast as they could.

 

I can see where couesfanatic is coming from here and I do believe the majority of hunters would call in G&F when locating an expired animal, but I must say some things don't add up and it seems that there is a big assumption that this elk was stolen versus finally laid to rest by another hunters arrow. You claim to feel that your shot was fatal but after 8 hours the elk had to much go for you to even get back on him and watch him bed a second time. You claim he was gutted where he bedded but you state he got away from you 8 hours after hit and mention nothing about watching him bed down and knowing the location, this seems validated by the fact that you state it was crows that led you to the remains. You claim you bumped him at 3 p.m. which gave almost 3 and half hours of hunting light to still relocate the bull a fatally wounded bull which would have most likely been dropping down and looking to bed again if so was the the degree of damage. Knowing that many elk hunters focus on the fist and last hours of light and that you had seen other hunters you had to wave off in the area I do not see how withdrawing was the smart thing to do. I am sure your CSI skills in field proved the worse from your perception, but there are numerous shots that could have been enough to expire an already wounded bull that may not have include the vitals. And it would seem that it is possible and plausible that another evening hunter found him, probably in a depleted state but possibly up, and put another arrow him that finally put him down. With all those emotions I am sure you had going through you, and the actions you stated you took to go find the thief, it would be easy to assume you did not waste much time circling back out much of a distance looking for another blood trail, possibly from a second shot. It is extremely sad you lost a good bull, but on the high side took another to go with the ones your dad and bro took. However, as much as it does suck, I have the respect for the sport and my fellow hunters to believe that it was a missed opportunity and the majority of guys and gals would do the right thing (contacting G&F and trying to locate the hunter) versus stoop to such pathetic scumbag levels as tagging another hunters game as their own. There is a big grey area of what if's and assumptions that often seem to point at the worst possible scenario as the actual facts. In my opinion this tarnishes our sport and does little to influence and teach newer less fortunate generations of hunters to have the same respect for the sport as those of us who learned the "old School ways" from our fathers and Grandfathers. The sport is changing and has become more of a competition for many (even this site promotes this through the contests), and this is unfortunate. Yet, I only stick to one assumption, that the majority of fellow hunters share the love of hunting for the right reasons. We may all have different beliefs in the methods and how we hunt, but at the end of the day majority of the hunters I have ever crossed in the field are stand up people doing something they love. If your assumptions were right I would not include the person or persons in this group of fellow hunters.

[huntlines]

Good story. How do you know the elk were dead when the people "stole" them? I have been in the other people shoes once before. I found a bull hit too far back with no hunter to be found. Searched and searched and couldn't find anyone who had shot a bull. With a bull suffering and will soon die, what do you do? I finished him off and ended my hunt. I don't feel bad about it at all.

 

I agree though, if it is dead then call the fish and game, or locate the hunter. I hate scumbag hunters just as much as the rest of you.

 

I was afraid that unit would turn into problems with as many tags as are in there now.

 

Well to answer your question I know for sure my fathers elk was dead. The hit he placed on his bull was square in the scenter of the liver. The blood in the bulls bed was all dried up and there was no new fresh blood anywhere. Same for mine this year other than my hit was low and at the base of the liver. The gut pile was in his bed with no new fresh blood. If these elk were still alive when the perps found them then I should have seen fresh blood and there should have been another wound in the vitals left behind. No one would have shot the bull in the head with archery equipment. Sure they could have cut his throat, hit a artery in the neck or hind quarters but then there should have been fresh blood. One other thing, our trucks were parked not a quarter mile from where these guys drug the bull out to the main road. If they wanted to find the rightfull hunter they wouldn't have to look far. No these guys got out of the area as fast as they could.

 

I can see where couesfanatic is coming from here and I do believe the majority of hunters would call in G&F when locating an expired animal, but I must say some things don't add up and it seems that there is a big assumption that this elk was stolen versus finally laid to rest by another hunters arrow. You claim to feel that your shot was fatal but after 8 hours the elk had to much go for you to even get back on him and watch him bed a second time. You claim he was gutted where he bedded but you state he got away from you 8 hours after hit and mention nothing about watching him bed down and knowing the location, this seems validated by the fact that you state it was crows that led you to the remains. You claim you bumped him at 3 p.m. which gave almost 3 and half hours of hunting light to still relocate the bull a fatally wounded bull which would have most likely been dropping down and looking to bed again if so was the the degree of damage. Knowing that many elk hunters focus on the fist and last hours of light and that you had seen other hunters you had to wave off in the area I do not see how withdrawing was the smart thing to do. I am sure your CSI skills in field proved the worse from your perception, but there are numerous shots that could have been enough to expire an already wounded bull that may not have include the vitals. And it would seem that it is possible and plausible that another evening hunter found him, probably in a depleted state but possibly up, and put another arrow him that finally put him down. With all those emotions I am sure you had going through you, and the actions you stated you took to go find the thief, it would be easy to assume you did not waste much time circling back out much of a distance looking for another blood trail, possibly from a second shot. It is extremely sad you lost a good bull, but on the high side took another to go with the ones your dad and bro took. However, as much as it does suck, I have the respect for the sport and my fellow hunters to believe that it was a missed opportunity and the majority of guys and gals would do the right thing (contacting G&F and trying to locate the hunter) versus stoop to such pathetic scumbag levels as tagging another hunters game as their own. There is a big grey area of what if's and assumptions that often seem to point at the worst possible scenario as the actual facts. In my opinion this tarnishes our sport and does little to influence and teach newer less fortunate generations of hunters to have the same respect for the sport as those of us who learned the "old School ways" from our fathers and Grandfathers. The sport is changing and has become more of a competition for many (even this site promotes this through the contests), and this is unfortunate. Yet, I only stick to one assumption, that the majority of fellow hunters share the love of hunting for the right reasons. We may all have different beliefs in the methods and how we hunt, but at the end of the day majority of the hunters I have ever crossed in the field are stand up people doing something they love. If your assumptions were right I would not include the person or persons in this group of fellow hunters.

 

I agree with you and stated they could have shot the elk in a place other than the vitals left behind. If this was the case I am just out of luck. However, I did look around for a second blood trail which was not there nor was there any blood in the area indicating someone else shot this elk where he laid. CSI I don't claim to be but I have been doing this long enough to be able to tell what probably happened. This being said even if I were to shoot an elk and later determine it had previously been mortally shot, I would try my best to find the hunter who had placed the first shot. I don't feel by shooting an animal who was physically disabled due to a previous shot is my trophy to take. This is the same reason I would never hunt behind a high fence.

 

I also agree most hunters think the same way, unfortunetely there are a growing number of what I call "green" hunters who don't. I also agree it is due to the idealistic thought process out there that a successful hunt must end with a record book entry. Last year I didn't tag an elk but I had a truely memorable hunt with my father and brother. One I will never forget due to the good times we had.

[Str8Shot]

Good story. How do you know the elk were dead when the people "stole" them? I have been in the other people shoes once before. I found a bull hit too far back with no hunter to be found. Searched and searched and couldn't find anyone who had shot a bull. With a bull suffering and will soon die, what do you do? I finished him off and ended my hunt. I don't feel bad about it at all.

 

I agree though, if it is dead then call the fish and game, or locate the hunter. I hate scumbag hunters just as much as the rest of you.

 

I was afraid that unit would turn into problems with as many tags as are in there now.

 

Well to answer your question I know for sure my fathers elk was dead. The hit he placed on his bull was square in the scenter of the liver. The blood in the bulls bed was all dried up and there was no new fresh blood anywhere. Same for mine this year other than my hit was low and at the base of the liver. The gut pile was in his bed with no new fresh blood. If these elk were still alive when the perps found them then I should have seen fresh blood and there should have been another wound in the vitals left behind. No one would have shot the bull in the head with archery equipment. Sure they could have cut his throat, hit a artery in the neck or hind quarters but then there should have been fresh blood. One other thing, our trucks were parked not a quarter mile from where these guys drug the bull out to the main road. If they wanted to find the rightfull hunter they wouldn't have to look far. No these guys got out of the area as fast as they could.

 

I can see where couesfanatic is coming from here and I do believe the majority of hunters would call in G&F when locating an expired animal, but I must say some things don't add up and it seems that there is a big assumption that this elk was stolen versus finally laid to rest by another hunters arrow. You claim to feel that your shot was fatal but after 8 hours the elk had to much go for you to even get back on him and watch him bed a second time. You claim he was gutted where he bedded but you state he got away from you 8 hours after hit and mention nothing about watching him bed down and knowing the location, this seems validated by the fact that you state it was crows that led you to the remains. You claim you bumped him at 3 p.m. which gave almost 3 and half hours of hunting light to still relocate the bull a fatally wounded bull which would have most likely been dropping down and looking to bed again if so was the the degree of damage. Knowing that many elk hunters focus on the fist and last hours of light and that you had seen other hunters you had to wave off in the area I do not see how withdrawing was the smart thing to do. I am sure your CSI skills in field proved the worse from your perception, but there are numerous shots that could have been enough to expire an already wounded bull that may not have include the vitals. And it would seem that it is possible and plausible that another evening hunter found him, probably in a depleted state but possibly up, and put another arrow him that finally put him down. With all those emotions I am sure you had going through you, and the actions you stated you took to go find the thief, it would be easy to assume you did not waste much time circling back out much of a distance looking for another blood trail, possibly from a second shot. It is extremely sad you lost a good bull, but on the high side took another to go with the ones your dad and bro took. However, as much as it does suck, I have the respect for the sport and my fellow hunters to believe that it was a missed opportunity and the majority of guys and gals would do the right thing (contacting G&F and trying to locate the hunter) versus stoop to such pathetic scumbag levels as tagging another hunters game as their own. There is a big grey area of what if's and assumptions that often seem to point at the worst possible scenario as the actual facts. In my opinion this tarnishes our sport and does little to influence and teach newer less fortunate generations of hunters to have the same respect for the sport as those of us who learned the "old School ways" from our fathers and Grandfathers. The sport is changing and has become more of a competition for many (even this site promotes this through the contests), and this is unfortunate. Yet, I only stick to one assumption, that the majority of fellow hunters share the love of hunting for the right reasons. We may all have different beliefs in the methods and how we hunt, but at the end of the day majority of the hunters I have ever crossed in the field are stand up people doing something they love. If your assumptions were right I would not include the person or persons in this group of fellow hunters.

 

I agree with you and stated they could have shot the elk in a place other than the vitals left behind. If this was the case I am just out of luck. However, I did look around for a second blood trail which was not there nor was there any blood in the area indicating someone else shot this elk where he laid. CSI I don't claim to be but I have been doing this long enough to be able to tell what probably happened. This being said even if I were to shoot an elk and later determine it had previously been mortally shot, I would try my best to find the hunter who had placed the first shot. I don't feel by shooting an animal who was physically disabled due to a previous shot is my trophy to take. This is the same reason I would never hunt behind a high fence.

 

I also agree most hunters think the same way, unfortunetely there are a growing number of what I call "green" hunters who don't. I also agree it is due to the idealistic thought process out there that a successful hunt must end with a record book entry. Last year I didn't tag an elk but I had a truely memorable hunt with my father and brother. One I will never forget due to the good times we had.

 

I agree with there being a growing number of green hunters, as you call them, and that many stretch the ideals of respecting the type of hunting ethics that the Majority of hunters have been taught (I do believe that the Majority of hunters in the field are not so green). None the less, it is an unfortunate situation but still a bit grey, and I believe more can be learned by green hunters who frequent forums by using your story to show how decisions effect the outcome of a hunt both good and bad. Calling out the worst case scenario, in my opinion, does not benefit the hunters or the sport. These green hunters, as you call them, are also the type of hunters who may leave a bull wandering wounded after losing a blood trail, and deciding to move on to kill or wound another. As hunters we need to make the right decision for preserving our sport and our herds and trusting right decisions are made, and a humane veteran hunter should feel driven to expire an animal that is found wounded when no other hunters are found in the area. I agree that in such instances that every attempt to find the original hunter should (and often are) be made. I may be naive to think in more positive terms, but this is based on the many more positive experiences I have had versus negatives.

[billrquimby]

Great story with a great outcome. Game thieves are not new. In about 1950 or so, someone stole my father's mule deer buck from the back of his panel truck while he was celebrating in a "Whiskey Row" bar in Prescott. It was a good buck, and he was proud of it, so he had left the truck's rear doors open so people could gawk at it.

 

Years later, while I was hunting bears on the San Francisco Peaks above Flagstaff with Jim Bedlion in the mid 1970s, someone shot a bear Jim's dogs had treed. We had climbed over Doyle Peak and were listening to his dogs bark treed below us in the Inner Basin when we heard three shots. The dogs returned to Jim while we were trying to get down to the tree. You cannot imagine how pissed I was.

 

Bill Quimby

[Hunting6]

Glad you were able to take three nice bulls.... too bad about the others though.

hopefully the highs of the hunt eliminate the lows

Congratulations

[rclouse79]

This post caused me to think of an analogy. Like it or not, here she is.

 

1) You shoot an elk across the canyon and actually see that it has expired. You go to grab your buddy to pack out the animal and come back to see someone else gutting your elk.

 

This is the equivalent of coming home from work and finding some dude giving it to your wife. You should be pissed and most people would not hold it against you if you beat the living tar out of the dude.

 

2) You shoot an elk and find it 8 hours later still alive. You push the elk off and decide to come back the next day to look for it. The next day you find it some distance away from where you pushed it with somebody gutting it out.

 

This is the equivalent of going on a date with the girl of your dreams. You are panicked when she will not return your phone calls so you start snooping around. After some first rate detective work you find that she is going out with someone else. You find yourself in a very agitated state and feel like beating the other guys face in. Although your feelings are normal and understandable, most people would NOT think that you were justified in taking action against the lucky guy. Bottom line is you didn’t close the deal and somebody else did.

 

As someone posted earlier, there is at least a remote possibility that another hunter shot the same elk that you did which ended up killing it. There is also a possibility that if they hadn’t shot it you never would have found it. IF this were the case, I think it would be better that somebody made good use of the elk, instead of it dying due to an infection some time later. IF they found your elk dead and claimed it, that is not cool. In either case it does not sting nearly as much as it would have because you got another one. Congrats on your harvest, and thanks for the story.

[db cooper]

I carry a skateboard helmet cam in order to document stalks etc.... Next time, I leave an animal to get help, i'm gonna place that camera to cover my trophy. Just an idea..whose time may have come, unfortunately.

[huntlines]

I guess I wasn't clear enough in my original post. rclouse79 thanks for the analogy while funny it isn't as close as you think.

 

No blood trail to the gut pile, no other entry wounds to the vitals and no blood around the gut pile indicates to most the bull died in his over night bed from the original shot. This being said I agree that if someone did shoot the bull before he expired then they have done nothing wrong. Legally speaking and so the bull didn't suffer any longer than he had to this is fine. However I go back to the issue of shooting something someone else has previously shot. I for one don't feel this is hunting just killing. I will use the analogy again of hunting behind high fences, the animal is at a great disadvantage.

 

Thank you for all the replies. I knew I would get some of the ones previously stated but I just wanted to share my hunt. Even if I wouldn't have harvested a bull I had an unforgetable time.

[couesobsession]

First off, congratulations to you for an awesome elk down and to your brother and father for also tagging VERY respectable elk. This thread opens a can of waorms mainly becasue everybody has their own sense of wrong and right, and being adults, I hope we can share them peacably.

 

I agree that a mortally wounded bull can live for long after the shot. A buddy of mine once, on a RIFLE hunt with a 300 win. mag hit a bull in the liver. We watched it from a vantage point, assuming it was dead, and went after it. When we got close to the bull, whose head was down and apperaed expired, he jumped up and ran fster than I could. He ran a quarter of a mile down from the ridge he was shot on down into a valley. We could see him the whole time and decided to let him sit for a couple hours, sure he would die. Being young and eager, we went after him after three hours wait. We assumed this was plenty for a bull we were certain was hit square in the liver. Being that the bull was on its side and eyes closed, we went after it without shooting again because he needed the meat. What do you know as we got within fifty yards the bull stood up, this time less energetically, and ran UP the other side of the valley. It was odd since wounded animals should take the past of least resistance, and odder still since we hadnt seen him breathing. Thankfully the bull stopped about one huindred yards away, giving him a shot. He ran another fifty yards and went down for good, hit in the arteries of the neck. Upon cleaning of the animal, there was a good sized whole in the elk's liver, almost center in it. And yet he had survived four hours and over a quarter mile. The moral: ELk are tough. I fully believe one could survive for eight hours and then expirwe overnight.

 

Also, as to killing a wounded animal and tagging it, imo it depends. I once shot a beatiful 6x6 360" class bull that had been wounded, shot in the chest. The bull was clearly hurting, but the wound was at least a couple days old judging from the coagulated blood, flys swarming around the wound, and the smell of, yes its gruesome, rotting flesh in the wound. I knew as soon as I saw it that my hunt was over. I put one into his chest. Did I even consider looking for the hunter who had shot him the first time. leaving the bull there? No. When an animal is wounded and suffering, and clearly isnt about to keel over dead, it is our duty as hunters to end its misery. It wouldnt have mattered if it was a spike, the fact that a majestic animal is suffering like that just pains me to see.

 

So really, its the persons decision. I didn;t seek out the hunter who had made the first shot. He/she was probably gone already, and even if they weren't it didnt matter. If the first shot isnt good enough to take it down, then the person who does has every right to take that animal home. IMO, its a case-by-case basis. If you finish a wounded elk, why give it to the huntert who made the first shot, not good enough to bring it down? YOu ended the animals suffering. Again, I believ that an elk who is clearly moretally hit should be left for the hunter, or finsihed off and then given to the hhunter if it was going to die soon. Sometimes its hard to tell, but we can only hope to use good judgement.

 

stealing a game animal that is clearly about to die or is already dead is wrong.

 

If the bull metioned in the write-up hadnt died overnight, I agree that any wound that would kill should have left more blood.

[huntlines]

First off, congratulations to you for an awesome elk down and to your brother and father for also tagging VERY respectable elk. This thread opens a can of waorms mainly becasue everybody has their own sense of wrong and right, and being adults, I hope we can share them peacably.

 

I agree that a mortally wounded bull can live for long after the shot. A buddy of mine once, on a RIFLE hunt with a 300 win. mag hit a bull in the liver. We watched it from a vantage point, assuming it was dead, and went after it. When we got close to the bull, whose head was down and apperaed expired, he jumped up and ran fster than I could. He ran a quarter of a mile down from the ridge he was shot on down into a valley. We could see him the whole time and decided to let him sit for a couple hours, sure he would die. Being young and eager, we went after him after three hours wait. We assumed this was plenty for a bull we were certain was hit square in the liver. Being that the bull was on its side and eyes closed, we went after it without shooting again because he needed the meat. What do you know as we got within fifty yards the bull stood up, this time less energetically, and ran UP the other side of the valley. It was odd since wounded animals should take the past of least resistance, and odder still since we hadnt seen him breathing. Thankfully the bull stopped about one huindred yards away, giving him a shot. He ran another fifty yards and went down for good, hit in the arteries of the neck. Upon cleaning of the animal, there was a good sized whole in the elk's liver, almost center in it. And yet he had survived four hours and over a quarter mile. The moral: ELk are tough. I fully believe one could survive for eight hours and then expirwe overnight.

 

Also, as to killing a wounded animal and tagging it, imo it depends. I once shot a beatiful 6x6 360" class bull that had been wounded, shot in the chest. The bull was clearly hurting, but the wound was at least a couple days old judging from the coagulated blood, flys swarming around the wound, and the smell of, yes its gruesome, rotting flesh in the wound. I knew as soon as I saw it that my hunt was over. I put one into his chest. Did I even consider looking for the hunter who had shot him the first time. leaving the bull there? No. When an animal is wounded and suffering, and clearly isnt about to keel over dead, it is our duty as hunters to end its misery. It wouldnt have mattered if it was a spike, the fact that a majestic animal is suffering like that just pains me to see.

 

So really, its the persons decision. I didn;t seek out the hunter who had made the first shot. He/she was probably gone already, and even if they weren't it didnt matter. If the first shot isnt good enough to take it down, then the person who does has every right to take that animal home. IMO, its a case-by-case basis. If you finish a wounded elk, why give it to the huntert who made the first shot, not good enough to bring it down? YOu ended the animals suffering. Again, I believ that an elk who is clearly moretally hit should be left for the hunter, or finsihed off and then given to the hhunter if it was going to die soon. Sometimes its hard to tell, but we can only hope to use good judgement.

 

stealing a game animal that is clearly about to die or is already dead is wrong.

 

If the bull metioned in the write-up hadnt died overnight, I agree that any wound that would kill should have left more blood.

 

Very well said; I agree with everything you mentioned. I don't like to see animals suffer and would have done exactly what you did. It sounds like the wound in your elk wasn't one that was going to bring down the bull anytime soon. Infection maybe down the road but clearly not a way to let an animal die. If the hunter who took my bull would have stuck arounsd another half hour we would have been able to talk about the situation. We were parked not a quarter of a mile from each other so if they wanted to they could have found us or waited for us. If they had put a kill shot on the bull I would have congratulated them.

 

All I am hoping is that a few people will read this and think about what they would do in a simular situation in the future. Our sport is much more important as a whole.

 

Thanks

[cardawg]

I heard a story just like this a few years ago,a guy took his wife on her first elk hunt and told her ,if you get one make sure you put your tag on it right away,because there are people who will steal your elk from you.Sure enough he heard a shot from the direction where he had set her up in a blind,he went back to check on her and when he got there he was surprised to see her pointing her rifle at a guy standing there with his hands in the air.The guy yelled ,hey Mister! tell her she can keep it,I just wanted to get my saddle back

[huntlines]

I hope we can have another great year this year. We will be trying to go three for three again. Just got through rereading this hunt and it brings back lots of memories. Come on September!