Law vs. Ethics

[donniedent]

Well Justin, just like my great grand dad used to say, that's the sh!ts!

 

What I will say though is that guides are as individual as the rest of us and just like the majority of hunters are good people, from my expirience, guides are the same.

 

Intentions were pretty evident in your description of the encounter. I'm sorry your hunt went bad. Its unfortunate to hear any story of a bad hunt. Kinda bums me out to be honest. Its a sad state of affairs when a G and F guys has that kind of response for you and its deffinately not the kind of conditions a guy should ever expect from any hunt and especially one you have to wait so long to draw.

 

If I were you I would remember one thing though, anybody could have pulled a stunt like that, just so happens it was a guide and his client. What is sad is that the client probably felt somewhat justified due to the amount he had to spend to pay that guide.

 

Hmmm... That just sucks man, really sorry that happened to you.

[.270]

if you read the wildlife proclomations and really think about em, you can't take a gun from your house, get in your vehicle and go hunting and come back and not break some sort of law or rule that is written in the rule book. before your hunt is over, you're gonna do something wrong, per the rules. either because there are so many rules that you don't know them all or you just make a mistake, like shoot too close a building or the old "road hunting" thing they like to use. (a friend of mine drove down a main, gov't maintained road in the morning and waved at a warden, then drove down it to go home that afternoon and saw the warden again and he pulled em over and said he would give them a ticket for road hunting if he saw them again. true story. same warden gave a guy a ticket for road hunting because he had a rifle on a legal, licensed quad on a main road. he got to eat the ticket before it was over, but he did cite him) or maybe you just don't care for some of the laws or whatever. but it is virtually impossible to take a gun and go hunting and not break some rule or law, at least in the eyes of the game and fish. if you're not just totaly and grossly stupid, you'll probably never get cited tho. anyway, back to my point, as long as you try real hard to do what is right, whether or not there is a law or rule about it, and don't go out of your way to be an @$$hole, then you're ok in my book. but when folks get greedy and spend all their time dreaming about getting their pitcher on the cover of a magazine and are really hunting in order to brag, showoff, or make up for "shortcomings" in physical areas or whatever then i have no use for ya. if you hunt hard and hunt right and still kill the big one, good for you. the big one is always my goal. but if you hunt for reasons other than the love of hunting and enjoying the outdoors and wildlife and plants and country, with folks you care about, then you're part of the problem. Lark.

[donniedent]

Lark, I always love your posts.

 

I think the big one is a pretty common goal for all of us, but what lengths will some go to get the big one.

 

I don't think Law vs. Ethics was the best title for this topic honestly. My goal was to get a really good discussion going about the "state of the woods" so to speak. My family has two big hunts coming up, a junior cow hunt in 3c and a late bull tag in 10. I gotta be honest, these stories I'm hearing aren't very comforting. I haven't hunted Elk in Arizona in I think 9 years. The last thing I want to deal with is a bunch of arogant turds! I sure as heck don't want my kids to ever witness the kind of things that are happening out there.

 

Is there anything on Gods green earth that we can do as responsible sportsman to help slow this attitude machine that hunting has turned into. I'm mean at my house I can make sure my kids know the difference between right and wrong. Beyond that, we're all subject to however someone wants to try and treat us in the woods. I've always looked at my passion for the outdoors as an escape from what this world is becoming, now its turning into the same self-serving, I want, what I want, when I want it, toilet of a society I spend my daily life in.

 

Don't mind to sound so negative... sorry.

[billrquimby]

" if you hunt for reasons other than the love of hunting and enjoying the outdoors and wildlife and plants and country, with folks you care about, then you're part of the problem. Lark."

 

As always, Lark is right on., although I am convinced it is more than just part of the problem. Hunters who judge the quality of hunting with tape measures will be the death of our heritage.

 

Bill Quimby

 

The worst thing about growing old is knowing the condition is temporary. BQ

[June]

I'm going to go ahead and post even though I would like to pretend that my failed Unit 9 archery hunt did not even take place. It felt like one the of those deals where Murphy's Law just wouldn't get off my back.

 

I have minimal experience elk hunting. In 04, my buddy and I both tagged out opening evening of the hunt sitting water and were able to take very respectable bulls. Couple years back, my son Cody was able to fill a jr cow tag opening morning. Well there you have it, that is my carnal knowledge of elk hunting along with half a dozen scouting trips.

 

Unfortunately, my knowledge has grown substantially in the the course of 10 days of archery elk hunting and most of it was bad. We ran into jerk after jerk and problem after problem.

 

I'm only going list the first issue to start the ball rolling because it was totally uncalled for and the two people who crapped on me are sponsors of this site! Basically the issue was over water. I had two options for hunting water and had negotiated a rotation at my first choice spot which was a drinker. I asked to have Friday because I had already hung a second stand for my friend who was trying to get the shot on video opening weekend. Saturday at around noon, we drove over to a mud tank where I was hoping to hang a second stand for my friend and then hunt the evening. We arrived and no one was there. Upon being almost finished hanging a second stand two trucks pulled up. One was a hunter and his helper with a video cam, the other were buddies and had come to pull their camera from the water hole. They pulled the card and were gathered round to see if they had what they were looking for on camera.

 

I asked them (the four of them) what their plan was and one immediately told me they were going to hunt the water that evening. I started to explain my rotation at my other spot and asked if I could sit tonight and they could have it tomorrow on so on, but was met with problems right quick. After "being told" several times they were gonna hunt it. I then pulled the "I was technically here first card".

 

The two guys pulling their cam left and tag holder and video helper continued to stand there ground and try to bully me off the tank. The guy then proceeds to tell me they will go hunt "the bull" out of his bed, we know where he beds. I called their bluff and again told them I wanted to hunt the tank. After this crap, we actually made introductions and the tag holder told me to go ahead and hunt the water and told me he would take it tomorrow. What I failed to realize was it was not a bluff and they indeed attempted to hunt "the bull".

 

Their tactics were pretty poor IMO. First they left their truck approximately 100 yards from the waters edge as a big %^&$ @#! to me. Then they walked behind the tank where the main trail coming in was and proceeded to start bugling at 2 in the afternoon and blew it every 5 minutes until I could no longer hear them, which was well over an hour.

 

So, although I do hope Chris managed to take a trophy animal on his Unit 9 hunt, I certainly won't be needing/using the services of Sonoran Ghost Outfitters or his helper/friend who said he owned Gila Outdoors.

 

They both informed me they were sponsors of this site even before the disagreement began. I can't say enough how I wanted to let the air of the his tires or fling an arrow at the side of the truck sitting there withing view of the tank. I tried to be nice and just got crapped on. I ran into the Unit Manager on the way out in the dark. I informed him of what had transpired and his response was "that's Unit 9", he told me he couldn't issue citations and I responded citations aren't was I was hoping for. I asked if he could have a talk with these guys and let them know we ALL waited a long time for this tag and to show a little courtesy to the rest of the tag holders. That was the last of these guys for me, didn't run into them again.

 

The hunt didn't improve much from there.

If I ever draw the tag again, if I even apply, I will hang a dozen cams and stay clear of any water source that has a 380 bull or better. After chatting with the Mullins crew, they informed me lot's of people knew about a couple of big toads using that water hole and several others in the immediate area. Sounded like one was close to 400 and the other over 400. There are no secrets anymore and big trophy animals can no longer go undetected with the aid of cameras. For the record I use cameras and enjoy doing so.

 

I know this situation is pretty weak in comparison to the "I'm going to kill your wounded bull before you can finish off fiasco", but it still blew me away and needless to say no elk came in that night.

 

If I can find it in me to write about the next 8 days of hunting I will, but probably not.

 

 

Justin Leitner

disgruntled elk hunter

 

 

Hey Justin,

Sorry to hear all this happened. You're a stand up guy.

From what I have been reading from other posts. I guess everyone will be needing to have a posse around so they can hunt in peace OR take 1

Bill J and let him explain the situation!!

 

The missed opportunity/time spent with friend stories are always the best and most educating to others. Hope to read more about your experience.

[sjvcon]

" if you hunt for reasons other than the love of hunting and enjoying the outdoors and wildlife and plants and country, with folks you care about, then you're part of the problem. Lark."

 

As always, Lark is right on., although I am convinced it is more than just part of the problem. Hunters who judge the quality of hunting with tape measures will be the death of our heritage.

 

Bill Quimby

 

The worst thing about growing old is knowing the condition is temporary. BQ

Amen!!! You've both got it right. Can I get a RON WHITE on that??? :lol:

[donniedent]

Well, we got to hear both sides of a HUGE topic on the elk section. WITHOUT bashing either party whats your take guys? Is there a darn thing we can do to avoid this crapolla?

 

What roll do you think the guides played in this one? I knew we wouldn't hear from them. They walked away unscathed. Do you think they had something to do with this situation going bad? I'm not looking to beat anybody up, guides included, I just want to have an honest disussion about it.

 

It IS our job to police our own. I believe We fill the gaps between law and ethics. There are now enough hunters that hit these forums that I believe we can make an impact.

 

 

Chef, I am getting involved. I've got a busy fall but as soon as my life calms down and I get some meat in the deep freezer I will be joining up and attending meetings. I was about to join many sportsmans groups before I moved to Wyoming but now that I'm back. Thank you for the encouragement!

[Pine Donkey]

Laws are imposed upon you, ethics come from inside. It comes down to this. Laws define what you do, Ethics define who you are.

[ruffcountry]

I've mentioned this on this site before. If you start bickering with guys who hunt legally, but different that you (not the same ethics as you), you make it easier for people to reduce the amount of hunting. I doesn't matter if the hunter likes salt licks, corn, radios, 426x binos, rifles that will shoot 3 miles, primitive gear, dogs, neon jumpsuits, or having 42 guys help him glass. If it is legal, leave it be. It might not be your way, but it may be legal. If they take away whatever it is that makes a single person or group of people spend time in the hills, they won't be out there. If they aren't out there enjoying the outdoors, they aren't going to help you when some one wants to take your ability to hunt with a bow, rifle, or whatever you enjoy most. I don't see any old trappers holding picket signs or organizing groups to preserve our right to hunt. They are gone, someone took what they enjoyed most about the outdoors away from them. I sure wish I was there to do something, or at least say I helped. I wasn't old enough to understand what was going on.

 

The more we allow others to control how and when we hunt, will hinder our ability to do what we enjoy. I don't want "the man" telling me what to do, or how to live my life. I also understand that new laws will be passed. Sometimes the governing body feels a jump in technology increases our hunting odds too much. Case in point, Idaho's limit on rifle weight.

 

If you look back and see what hunting rights/privileges have been taken away and awarded, you can see the general direction things are heading. Antis are always looking for a way to limit our ability to do what we love. We don't need to be limiting ourselves or other "unethical" groups if they are legal. We're just doing the hard work for those who hate our way of life. There are some stupid people in this world who do stupid things. There are also some dumb laws. I can't go out and slap some guy just because he's an idiot. I wish I could sometimes. People do things I don't agree with all the time, outdoors related or not. The great thing about living in a FREE country is that you are able to make those choices for yourself. You can't fix stupid, regardless of how many laws you pass.

 

Donnie, that wasn't aimed at you or anyone else in particular. I read it back and it seemed that way with all the "you's".

 

 

Big +1

[dzell]

i believe that the over abundance of laws get in the way of properly teaching ethics. more rules would just make things worse if you cant see that then your just another sheep in the flock

[donniedent]

i believe that the over abundance of laws get in the way of properly teaching ethics. more rules would just make things worse if you cant see that then your just another sheep in the flock

 

 

I believe that too. I don't belive more rules/laws are the answer. So... what are some ideas for educating hunters?

 

We have a great hunters ed program, unfortunately its gone online. I have a big problem with that one.

 

Should hunters ed be required? Other states do it, why don't we? I think that is one rule most if not all of us would agree with. But in the end, will it change anything?