Law vs. Ethics

[donniedent]

Well, today is the last day of the early archery bull hunts and we're already starting to hear stories about 2 hunters going after the same bull, hunters shooting bulls and others going in and cutting heads off the carcass's. I'm sure there are other things happening we haven't heard about yet. There has been alot of debate on other topics and I thought I would centralize it. I'd like to have an honest discussion here about where hunting is headed and what if anything can be done to change it. Group hunting, guides, waterhole conflict... its all up for discussion. The reason I'm starting this thread is so we can dicuss this topic while the iron is still hot and fresh in our heads. Lets hear the stories guys!

[Chef]

Well, today is the last day of the early archery bull hunts and we're already starting to hear stories about 2 hunters going after the same bull, hunters shooting bulls and others going in and cutting heads off the carcass's. I'm sure there are other things happening we haven't heard about yet. There has been alot of debate on other topics and I thought I would centralize it. I'd like to have an honest discussion here about where hunting is headed and what if anything can be done to change it. Group hunting, guides, waterhole conflict... its all up for discussion. The reason I'm starting this thread is so we can dicuss this topic while the iron is still hot and fresh in our heads. Lets hear the stories guys!

 

 

Donnie,

I strongly urge you to go to the next ADA meeting and voice your opinions.

More so, for listening at what the issues are that are affecting our right to hunt as we wish, where we want, and how.

There are already people on the commission and in the department that are not on our side. This is a disturbing trend I see happening throughout the Southwest.

All I am saying is, be careful what you wish for, it just may happen. In ways and to the extent that you never expected.

 

You seem to have a very strong passion and strong voice with your opinion. The ADA could use some new energy.

When you take a step back and look at the big picture, things will look a little different I'm sure. Enough that it will scare you, as it does me.

 

Much Regards

[Rag Horn]

You hold yourself to whatever ethical standard you deem appropriate but you can only hold others to a legal standard, anything else is unethical.

 

 

(that is not directed to anyone just a general brush stroke.)

[youngbuck]

I've mentioned this on this site before. If you start bickering with guys who hunt legally, but different that you (not the same ethics as you), you make it easier for people to reduce the amount of hunting. I doesn't matter if the hunter likes salt licks, corn, radios, 426x binos, rifles that will shoot 3 miles, primitive gear, dogs, neon jumpsuits, or having 42 guys help him glass. If it is legal, leave it be. It might not be your way, but it may be legal. If they take away whatever it is that makes a single person or group of people spend time in the hills, they won't be out there. If they aren't out there enjoying the outdoors, they aren't going to help you when some one wants to take your ability to hunt with a bow, rifle, or whatever you enjoy most. I don't see any old trappers holding picket signs or organizing groups to preserve our right to hunt. They are gone, someone took what they enjoyed most about the outdoors away from them. I sure wish I was there to do something, or at least say I helped. I wasn't old enough to understand what was going on.

 

The more we allow others to control how and when we hunt, will hinder our ability to do what we enjoy. I don't want "the man" telling me what to do, or how to live my life. I also understand that new laws will be passed. Sometimes the governing body feels a jump in technology increases our hunting odds too much. Case in point, Idaho's limit on rifle weight.

 

If you look back and see what hunting rights/privileges have been taken away and awarded, you can see the general direction things are heading. Antis are always looking for a way to limit our ability to do what we love. We don't need to be limiting ourselves or other "unethical" groups if they are legal. We're just doing the hard work for those who hate our way of life. There are some stupid people in this world who do stupid things. There are also some dumb laws. I can't go out and slap some guy just because he's an idiot. I wish I could sometimes. People do things I don't agree with all the time, outdoors related or not. The great thing about living in a FREE country is that you are able to make those choices for yourself. You can't fix stupid, regardless of how many laws you pass.

 

Donnie, that wasn't aimed at you or anyone else in particular. I read it back and it seemed that way with all the "you's".

[donniedent]

Great response!!! I didn't take it that way at all. I didn't open this topic for a bash session. I opened it to hear exactly the kind of response you posted! Again, excellent post.

 

I personally believe there are gaps in where the law ends and personal responsability begins. I do not believ changing any laws or creating more is any kind of answer. That being said, I also think that as the "trophy" hunting movement progresses, we will see an increase in conflict during hunts. I do not believ it will be long before one of these conflicts results in a tragedy. When that happens, all heck will break loose. The greenies and animals rights people will go bananas and I think we'll see the kind of changes that every hunter regardless of ethical stance would hate to see. My question would be how do we stop or even curtail such conflicts?

[luvdemcoues]

It has always been my belief that laws provide the minimum standard of what society expects of itself. From there it is up to each person to set their own bar as high as he or she would like.

Personally, I tend to hold myself to higher standards than the law. The law, for example, allows you to drive while having a little to drink, while I do not drink at all, if I did, I would not drive at all if I had anything to drink.

I guess I may be ignorant, because up until recently I had hoped all hunters were good people, and that as hunters, we had common ground to build on.

Just a few thoughts from an old Show Low High School edumacated guy.

[Non-Typical Solutions]

My son just did a report for one of his classes (8th grade) on the Game and Fish and Ethics of all subjects......the main gist of his report was the G$F was only successful due to the Ethical efforts of the hunters and those who use the system.

There are many things that rub my hair wrong and those of you who know me that is pretty tough. But follow the laws that are in the books, be respectful of others and follow the good book from up above and you will probably be headed in the right direction.

[.270]

the last 2 posts are excellent. i still believe legal=ethical. simply because you never wanna try to legislate ethics. it will destroy us. right is right and wrong is wrong. there ain't no gray. do what you know is right and what you would have others do to you. if everyone respected everyone else things would be a lot better. but when you do come up across those that are jackasses, then i guess it's up to you what you do. Lark.

[elkaholic]

one way to look at it! really rather simple-

 

act like you have your 10 yr old son, brother ,sister, daughter,nephew ,grandson on their first ever hunt. what are you going to teach him about hunting.

 

law and ethics tend to bend and even break in the excitement of the moment!

 

then theres just stupid left to deal with the mess!

 

 

of course this does not apply to a family of poachers!

[couesdiehard]

For the record luvdemcoues it is illegal to have a little drink while driving. The so-called "open container" law.

[donniedent]

Great posts and thank you for posting guys.

 

So what happens when others (increasing IMO) negatively effect your expirience in the field because of their lact of respect for others? What should our reaction be? As a whole I believe that sportsman are one of the most ethically and morally sound groups in society but what happens and what do we do when that begins to degrade?

[Non-Typical Solutions]

Great posts and thank you for posting guys.

 

So what happens when others (increasing IMO) negatively effect your expirience in the field because of their lact of respect for others? What should our reaction be? As a whole I believe that sportsman are one of the most ethically and morally sound groups in society but what happens and what do we do when that begins to degrade?

 

We were hunting rifle elk at the tree farms on Zeniff (bad idea) opening morning not realizing what a zoo experience that was going to be. We had spent plenty of time there glassing preseason, early morning and thought we had a pretty good plan.

Course we were exactly where we wanted to be opening morning along with about 15 other hunters waiting to decend upon the elk coming up out of the basin there.

 

Time for plan B, we glassed up some elk that seemed to have slipped through the masses and we were getting out of our truck to go on foot and try to edge over a slow slopping ridge when another truck pulled up along side of us. They asked us if we had seen anything and we told them we were getting ready to stalk up on some bulls below us.

 

Stupid us of course, telling them exactly what we were doing right??? They turn their truck off road, go barreling down the slope offroad right in the direction we told them we were planning on heading.

 

The first thing that crosses through my mind is putting my crosshairs on the tailgate of that truck and letting the lead fly.

 

We took down the plate number off the truck so we could call it in.

 

All the sudden we see a G$F truck barreling off the hill, guess we weren't alone out there . Those boys got pulled over and hopefully a little fine to go with it.

 

I think it is best to take down details, report them and let the law enforcement agencies take care of it. I know we maybe are not always happy when the law doesn't follow through the way we think they should but still for all involved it is the safest measure to take.

 

Ethics are as broad as the universe no matter if it is hunting, living off wellfare, crossing the border illegally or selling a used car.

[Non-Typical Solutions]

Oooops.....except crossing the border has nothing to do with ethics, that is just flat out illegal.....my bad.....

[sjvcon]

I've mentioned this on this site before. If you start bickering with guys who hunt legally, but different that you (not the same ethics as you), you make it easier for people to reduce the amount of hunting. I doesn't matter if the hunter likes salt licks, corn, radios, 426x binos, rifles that will shoot 3 miles, primitive gear, dogs, neon jumpsuits, or having 42 guys help him glass. If it is legal, leave it be. It might not be your way, but it may be legal. If they take away whatever it is that makes a single person or group of people spend time in the hills, they won't be out there. If they aren't out there enjoying the outdoors, they aren't going to help you when some one wants to take your ability to hunt with a bow, rifle, or whatever you enjoy most. I don't see any old trappers holding picket signs or organizing groups to preserve our right to hunt. They are gone, someone took what they enjoyed most about the outdoors away from them. I sure wish I was there to do something, or at least say I helped. I wasn't old enough to understand what was going on.

 

The more we allow others to control how and when we hunt, will hinder our ability to do what we enjoy. I don't want "the man" telling me what to do, or how to live my life. I also understand that new laws will be passed. Sometimes the governing body feels a jump in technology increases our hunting odds too much. Case in point, Idaho's limit on rifle weight.

 

If you look back and see what hunting rights/privileges have been taken away and awarded, you can see the general direction things are heading. Antis are always looking for a way to limit our ability to do what we love. We don't need to be limiting ourselves or other "unethical" groups if they are legal. We're just doing the hard work for those who hate our way of life. There are some stupid people in this world who do stupid things. There are also some dumb laws. I can't go out and slap some guy just because he's an idiot. I wish I could sometimes. People do things I don't agree with all the time, outdoors related or not. The great thing about living in a FREE country is that you are able to make those choices for yourself. You can't fix stupid, regardless of how many laws you pass.

 

Donnie, that wasn't aimed at you or anyone else in particular. I read it back and it seemed that way with all the "you's".

 

I have to say I do agree with most of this. And there is an awful lot of examples of things I DON'T DO listed here, because I don't particularly feel they are the right way. If someone else does it that way ... I may not like or agree with it ... but I'm not for passing a law to stop it. Big Government is Bad Government. More is worse. I'd rather try to educate them myself ... if they listen, great. If they don't, I just have to be content that I am following what I think is right.

[luvdemcoues]

For the record luvdemcoues it is illegal to have a little drink while driving. The so-called "open container" law.

 

"The law, for example, allows you to drive while having [had] a little to drink, while I do not drink at all, if I did, I would not drive at all..."

 

I believe you knew what I meant. Correction made just for you!