lion on trail cam

[couesdeerhntr]

And I can remember just a little while ago they took a lion out of the kofa mountains because why???? They new they lion was eating the sheep and by the end of the year there would be no sheep left do to small herd of like fourty sheep or so. And no wasn't with the guide on all his hunts so u are right just a bs session . And by your name and posts u must be a guide with dogs so I don't no why u are coming at me I could be bringing you business. Or u might feel I am taking it away? I don't no but u got to know there are a lot of lions out there. And reading books? Why who reads a book? I get my info from the internet and forums like this

[Tines]

And I can remember just a little while ago they took a lion out of the kofa mountains because why???? They new they lion was eating the sheep and by the end of the year there would be no sheep left do to small herd of like fourty sheep or so. And no wasn't with the guide on all his hunts so u are right just a bs session . And by your name and posts u must be a guide with dogs so I don't no why u are coming at me I could be bringing you business. Or u might feel I am taking it away? I don't no but u got to know there are a lot of lions out there. And reading books? Why who reads a book? I get my info from the internet and forums like this

 

Soooo...... you're comparing the Kofa's and sheep to coues deer now?? Your biggest "argument" was the impact that lions have on the coues deer population, not a "herd of like fourty sheep or so" in the Kofa's. Stick with the point you were trying to make

 

The Kofa's are a unique place, far from "typical coues habitat". Comparitively speaking, substantially less small game animals to sustain a lions diet. So yes, one can easily see why a biologist might want to protect a dwindling sheep herd. It's clear what a lions main diet might consist of if 90% of it's available resources are SHEEP! But did we really need that explained???

 

Yes, on a rare ocassion, there might be a "problem lion" that needs to be discharged. For example: a calf killer, one that lives off of sheep or other a-typical behaviors. But it doesn't even take a book to understand why it needs to happen....

 

I've also got to make something clear. Nobody asked me to post this. I also don't think it's necessary to defend azlongears' comments. They were sound and factual. Like he mentioned above, we've got to think about what information we're spreading on the internet or around the campfire. It's obvious that there's a lot of misinformation being spread that "re-affirms" that hunters are "just a bunch of ignorant fools".

[soazarcher]

And I can remember just a little while ago they took a lion out of the kofa mountains because why???? They new they lion was eating the sheep and by the end of the year there would be no sheep left do to small herd of like fourty sheep or so. And no wasn't with the guide on all his hunts so u are right just a bs session . And by your name and posts u must be a guide with dogs so I don't no why u are coming at me I could be bringing you business. Or u might feel I am taking it away? I don't no but u got to know there are a lot of lions out there. And reading books? Why who reads a book? I get my info from the internet and forums like this

 

Soooo...... you're comparing the Kofa's and sheep to coues deer now?? Your biggest "argument" was the impact that lions have on the coues deer population, not a "herd of like fourty sheep or so" in the Kofa's. Stick with the point you were trying to make

 

The Kofa's are a unique place, far from "typical coues habitat". Comparitively speaking, substantially less small game animals to sustain a lions diet. So yes, one can easily see why a biologist might want to protect a dwindling sheep herd. It's clear what a lions main diet might consist of if 90% of it's available resources are SHEEP! But did we really need that explained???

 

Yes, on a rare ocassion, there might be a "problem lion" that needs to be discharged. For example: a calf killer, one that lives off of sheep or other a-typical behaviors. But it doesn't even take a book to understand why it needs to happen....

 

I've also got to make something clear. Nobody asked me to post this. I also don't think it's necessary to defend azlongears' comments. They were sound and factual. Like he mentioned above, we've got to think about what information we're spreading on the internet or around the campfire. It's obvious that there's a lot of misinformation being spread that "re-affirms" that hunters are "just a bunch of ignorant fools".

 

 

 

Amen Tines! Good post.

[azoutlaw]

Long ears is right. Do the math. If your buddy killed 40 lions in one unit ( bs). At one deer a week that's over 2000 deer a year. Fact is lions have been around longer than any of us. Look at harvest rate. Amount of lions killed stay about the same every year. Lions do not kill a deer a week. Poor lions. Lol. Always getting blamed for everything.

[25-06]

40 lions in one year Hey Eric (azoutlaw) hows that ace dog doing? any new pics to share? Terry

[HD Trophy Hunts]

Couesdeerhntr- FYI I just went through the statistics. There has not been a SINGLE UNIT in the last five years to have more than 26 lions taken TOTAL for the YEAR. And out of all the units in the state for the last five years ONLY 2 have had 20 lions taken in a single season. So either your "buddy" isn't reporting lions, or he's pulling your leg. One of those is highly more probable than the other.

 

This problem developed because of studies done before technology improved how closely and successfully we could really track and monitor wild animals. Back in the 70's and 80's studies were done which claimed this widely accepted "norm," literature is still available (even one done in arizona) that say that lions will kill a deer sized animal every 6-12 days. But today biologists are proving that lions are much more oppurtunistic hunters/scavengers than they were given credit for and the 10-12 large animal kills is widely accepted. Another problem is studies done in other states do not represent lion behavior here. Just because a lion in Colorado kills a deer a week doesn't mean a lion in dry desert arizona kills a deer a week. Also every time you find a dead deer in the wild doesn't mean it was killed by a lion. Recently while working on a ranch in 27 while the fire was going, I found a calf elk dead that got hung up in a barb wire fence, I left it and rode off, a few days later the elk was gone, upon further investigation i found a lion had drug the elk off, ate on it and buried it. If somebody stumbled on this buried kill they'd say that lion was ruining our elk population.

 

This is not to say that lions do not kill deer. Big toms do kill deer and calves and pigs and skunks and rabbits and coyotes and other "pre-adult" lions as well. If hunters just harvested nice trophy quality toms you would be doing a bigger service to the deer population than "killing every lion."

 

Yes Andy is a guide, as am I. We are not "coming at you," but more so just trying to educate the "hunting public" and help stop the spread of WHAT IS A VERY WRONG BUT VERY COMMON MISCONCEPTION.

 

I'll leave you with another little peice of food for thought. Arizona game and fish estimates there are anywhere between 2500 and 3000 lions in the state. They estimate anywhere from 70,000-80,000 coues deer and roughly the same amount of mule deer. If every lion kills 52 deer a year (a deer a week) that is 130,000 DEER A YEAR on the LOW END(2500) and 156,000 deer a year on the high end (3000 lions). For a state that only has 140,000 to a 160,000 deer total. That would mean we only have enough deer to feed the lions for one year. Look out colorado here he we come!

 

Take care, and good luck with the lion on the original post I'm sorry your post got hijacked.

 

Mike Harris

HD Trophy Hunts

[.270]

what the h e l l is this all about? all the sudden hound men don't BS anymore? i don't even have a dog, i'm in bed, and i shot 2 yesterday. with a recurve. in the words o' henry frapp, "what the h e l l? don't ya like to have fun anymore?" Lark.

[gearsnagger]

Couesdeerhntr- FYI I just went through the statistics. There has not been a SINGLE UNIT in the last five years to have more than 26 lions taken TOTAL for the YEAR. And out of all the units in the state for the last five years ONLY 2 have had 20 lions taken in a single season. So either your "buddy" isn't reporting lions, or he's pulling your leg. One of those is highly more probable than the other.

 

This problem developed because of studies done before technology improved how closely and successfully we could really track and monitor wild animals. Back in the 70's and 80's studies were done which claimed this widely accepted "norm," literature is still available (even one done in arizona) that say that lions will kill a deer sized animal every 6-12 days. But today biologists are proving that lions are much more oppurtunistic hunters/scavengers than they were given credit for and the 10-12 large animal kills is widely accepted. Another problem is studies done in other states do not represent lion behavior here. Just because a lion in Colorado kills a deer a week doesn't mean a lion in dry desert arizona kills a deer a week. Also every time you find a dead deer in the wild doesn't mean it was killed by a lion. Recently while working on a ranch in 27 while the fire was going, I found a calf elk dead that got hung up in a barb wire fence, I left it and rode off, a few days later the elk was gone, upon further investigation i found a lion had drug the elk off, ate on it and buried it. If somebody stumbled on this buried kill they'd say that lion was ruining our elk population.

 

This is not to say that lions do not kill deer. Big toms do kill deer and calves and pigs and skunks and rabbits and coyotes and other "pre-adult" lions as well. If hunters just harvested nice trophy quality toms you would be doing a bigger service to the deer population than "killing every lion."

 

Yes Andy is a guide, as am I. We are not "coming at you," but more so just trying to educate the "hunting public" and help stop the spread of WHAT IS A VERY WRONG BUT VERY COMMON MISCONCEPTION.

 

I'll leave you with another little peice of food for thought. Arizona game and fish estimates there are anywhere between 2500 and 3000 lions in the state. They estimate anywhere from 70,000-80,000 coues deer and roughly the same amount of mule deer. If every lion kills 52 deer a year (a deer a week) that is 130,000 DEER A YEAR on the LOW END(2500) and 156,000 deer a year on the high end (3000 lions). For a state that only has 140,000 to a 160,000 deer total. That would mean we only have enough deer to feed the lions for one year. Look out colorado here he we come!

 

Take care, and good luck with the lion on the original post I'm sorry your post got hijacked.

 

Mike Harris

HD Trophy Hunts

 

It is true that the studies done in the past are less accurate than the study's that could be done today! I agree.... The problem I see with this is that all the studies are done by "Wild Life Biologist's" that have hidden agendas (anti hunting)..... AZFG is bringing in UC Davis's lion study team to study AZ lion's... This is the same group that was instrumental in banning lion hunting in Californa! The members of this team are all anti hunting! So I think the more appropriate ending to your rant is LOOK OUT AZ HERE COMES CALI! Not to cause any ill feeling's .... I just think it's a shame that the AZGFD is funding this UC Davis team when we have two fine Universities in AZ that are more than capable of doing a lion study! Isn't California suing and boycotting Arizona over SB1070..... Why should we be supporting California and their anti/slanted way of management! This just another example of how AZGFD is being taken over by big government!

The methods that are used to count our deer and elk in AZ are outdated..... I just can't accept the figure of 140,000 to 160,000 deer in AZ..... With 40 hunt units this comes out to 4000 deer per unit..... I believe there are many more deer than what the AZGFD "estimates" and lions! The are no current Lion population studies for AZ - The 2500 to 3000 lions figure is just a wild guess... The AZGFD admits that their figures are estimates and not actual count's. These guess's and methods are some of the reasoning for bringing UC Davis on board. So we are going from inaccurate estimates of deer and lion's to using the methods of and anti hunting organization....HMMMM The only thing I do agree with on this post is when .270 say's Houndsman like to pull ur leg and exaggerate for a laugh!

[muleybull]

Lions travel a lot by nature. He may set up shop in your area, but chances are he will only be in there every now an then. Even if a lion has a kill close by doesnt mean they will be in the area. Sometimes these suckers will travel a long way from their kill just to lay down. You have to remember that lions have always been there and the deer herds are not yet decimated as people claim will happen. Its been my experience that although lions seem to prefer mule deer as thier food source, they wont pass up an opportunity at a meal of any critter. A lion has to kill to survive, so if he only hunted one animal it would greatly reduce its chances of survival. They make thier kills, but it doesnt happen every day. Ever see a fat lion? The best killer is a hungry lion.

 

A deer a week! That would be a stud lion in a area very populated with deer. They will kill their share of deer during their lifetime, but everytime someone finds a dead deer it was killed by a lion. Lions get a bad rep from the doings of other animals such as coyotes.

 

I agree, it could be a female, maybe a young tom, but these animals are known for traveling. As a lion hunter you learn some of the areas these animals travel through and play the waiting game for a fresh track when they finally come around again.

 

Lions are out there, but there arent as many as a lot of people claim. 40 in a unit in 1 year! No. But if you know any lion hunters, they would appreciate a call if you ever get a recent picture or find a fresh kill. I guarentee it!

[billrquimby]

"Biologists have been collaring and following and studying lions for plenty of years now and have found that is just not the case. The numbers are more like 10-12 large mammals a year a lion will take. The rest of the time they are catching rabbits, skunks, rats, turkeys, squirrels, coyotes, scavenging dead animals, and whatever else they come across."

 

... and that includes other lions. Back when I hunted them in the 1970s, we found two examples where big toms had killed and eaten young male lions.

 

Lark is correct, as usual. A hunter should consider himself fortunate to see one that wasn't pushed up a tree with hounds.

 

In my humble opinion, the mountain lion is Arizona's premier game animal ... ranking even above elk, sheep and our beloved Coues deer ... so count me among those who hope that we will always have lions in our mountains.

 

Bill Quimby

[COUESAZ]

I agree Bill, lions are at the top of the list. Right now for sure. I hate seeing people say how they took 40 lions in one area. I get a kick out of most numbers people put up about how many lions they put up a tree or bluff up on a ledge each year. I guess those are the guys that have dogs give birth on the trail and they drop with eyes open and running with the pack. I need some of those pups for sure. I did just pick up a ranch for lion hunts that the rancher told me he has more lions and coyote then cattle.I know he was joking,but he is having lots of calf kills. Look forward to see what comes from this ranch. I have seen a lot of does with twin fawns the last couple trips out to his place. I realy like to see the deer herds doing that good.

[200"mulie]

And I can remember just a little while ago they took a lion out of the kofa mountains because why???? They new they lion was eating the sheep and by the end of the year there would be no sheep left do to small herd of like fourty sheep or so. And no wasn't with the guide on all his hunts so u are right just a bs session . And by your name and posts u must be a guide with dogs so I don't no why u are coming at me I could be bringing you business. Or u might feel I am taking it away? I don't no but u got to know there are a lot of lions out there. And reading books? Why who reads a book? I get my info from the internet and forums like this

 

 

That lion if, if not mistaken, was killing sheep just to kill and would eat very little. Game an Fish stepped in and took it out to save the sheep. The lion got the thrill of killing and it seems to me that it was very easy for him.

[200"mulie]

and what happened did you get out there and stick em'?

[db cooper]

And I can remember just a little while ago they took a lion out of the kofa mountains because why???? They new they lion was eating the sheep and by the end of the year there would be no sheep left do to small herd of like fourty sheep or so. And no wasn't with the guide on all his hunts so u are right just a bs session . And by your name and posts u must be a guide with dogs so I don't no why u are coming at me I could be bringing you business. Or u might feel I am taking it away? I don't no but u got to know there are a lot of lions out there. And reading books? Why who reads a book? I get my info from the internet and forums like this

 

 

That lion if, if not mistaken, was killing sheep just to kill and would eat very little. Game an Fish stepped in and took it out to save the sheep. The lion got the thrill of killing and it seems to me that it was very easy for him.

 

 

Same goes for that lion in the Harquahalas. Mama was killed and baby took to whacking anything that came into Sunset Canyon Catchment. Like some people, some animals just need killing. BTW, if its on the net then it must be true, right!

[roninflag]

if predators were not a problem the difference in fawn survival inside and out side the fence at three bar would be the same.instead the fawn survival inside is 100% outside 17. besides deer , lions do kill badger fox and elk. mostly deer. i know a lion hunter collared a lion and followed it and the kills for two years. it killed and ate a lot of deer. and becuase coyotes and other animals eat the lion kill; the areas with higher coyote numbers it killed more often. 40 a year i believe. the coues seem to be holding their own but mule deer south of the colorado river are really at a low.