ATF to Require Information on Frequent Gunbuyers in Border States

[swishjth]

Probably best to follow the link:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/11/atf-to-require-information-on-frequent-gunbuyers-in-border-states/

[BeardownAZ]

Now I know why the ATF was referred to as "Jack Booted Thugs" by the NRA in the 90's, cause they are! Blame us for there screw ups by putting a bogus policy on to 4 border states! This administration has got to go!

[LawDog]

Easy Beardown, don't blame the ATF agents. Reading your post, however, forces me to go on a rant that been festering since Fox and a bunch of politicians who happen to be Republicans started attacking law enforcement for nothing more than political gain.

 

1. The boots on the ground (the lower level agents at ATF that devised Fast and Furious) are cops just like anywhere else in this country. They just happen to be employed by ATF.

2. Their job, just like the jobs of cops anywhere else in this country, is to catch people breaking the law. ATF agents' job is to find out who is involved in placing weapons in the hands of bad guys/our enemies.

3. Good cops aren't just looking for low level flunkies doing the bidding of sophisticated and well financed organized crime members. ATF was trying to catch the higher level players.

3. Guns don't kill people. It's the low life, drug smuggling [fill in the blank] that pulled the trigger.

 

Feel free to blame the guy who financed him too.

[Coach]

To be honest, all of the news reports I've read have been really defensive of the actual agents involved. The real beef is with higher-ups in the organization, and could go all the way to Holder. A major theme in the almost non-existent reporting on this story given its gravity, is how the ATF is now trying to go after the agents that became vocal when they were told to do things they knew were very dangerous and very much against the stated goals of the operation (not to mention, highly illegal).

[Coach]

If you guys aren't watching the latest on "Project Gunrunner" a.k.a. "Fast and Furious", you really should be. This would make one heck of a hollywood movie, aside from the fact that it is real.

 

Arizona gun stores cooperated with the Federal B.A.T.F.E to conduct a "sting" operation to observe and intercept the illegal trafficking of assault weapons to Mexican drug cartels. Under surveillance, gun stores were instructed by the BATFE to allow the sales of thousands of assault weapons to straw buyers in the United States knowing the intention was to pass those arms into Mexico and into the hands of the cartels. The supposed intent was to follow the weapons and track them, so that arrests could be made.

 

According to news reports, the Mexican government now claims they had no involvement in the operation. As we all know now, hundreds of Mexican citizens lost their lives to these weapons, and at least two U.S. border patrol agents were killed by guns that our fed let "walk" into the hands of violent drug gangs.

 

Here's where it gets really dicey for the current administration. I'm sure some of you remember the Iran/Contra situation, where the US supplied guns to Iran, who was already the subject of arms embargo. Our own treaties prevent us from aiding, militarily, groups hoping to overthrow their own governments. Since Mexico has declared war on the cartels, and we have intentionally armed those cartels, some people are now saying that we have actively supplied weapons to an unauthorized insurgency.

 

I'm sure it will not gain any traction, but the current position of the Mexican government is that heads of the BATFE, and Department of Justice who authorized these actions, including Eric Holder, should be tried in Mexican courts.

 

 

Any way you look at it, operation "Fast and Furious" or "Project Gunrunner" eclipse Watergate, Katrina, Lewinsky, as an example of just how corrupt the federal government has become. And to make matters worse, you'll hardly find a journalist willing to even discuss it. Now ask yourself, what would the coverage of this monumental disaster have been if Obama and his clowns weren't the ones in charge right now. That just illuminates the power of the paid-for media in this country.

 

If you think for one minute you get a fair shake when the rubber hits the road, you're wrong. This country's political future has been bought and paid for, with your money - and mine. BMB (Buy More Bullets).

[DesertBull]

Eric Holder takes his orders from the narcissistic, big government, Constitution hating, egomaniac in the White House. His ultimate goal was to blame the 2nd Amendment and the USA for the violence in Mexico.

[loco4coues]

The best part about the new "regulations" is that they have been put in place by an Obama decree. The white house said that the regulations were "common-sense measures that would improve American safety and security while fully respecting Second Amendment rights.." How does the Obama "fully respect second amendment rights" when he by-passes the constitutional process of law making and just writes up an executive order? What a joke...

[Elkhunter1]

If I get started on Obamaism I won't be able to stop and just might get a visit from his henchmen! That's all I can Legally say here!!!!!

[BeardownAZ]

Easy Beardown, don't blame the ATF agents. Reading your post, however, forces me to go on a rant that been festering since Fox and a bunch of politicians who happen to be Republicans started attacking law enforcement for nothing more than political gain.

 

1. The boots on the ground (the lower level agents at ATF that devised Fast and Furious) are cops just like anywhere else in this country. They just happen to be employed by ATF.

2. Their job, just like the jobs of cops anywhere else in this country, is to catch people breaking the law. ATF agents' job is to find out who is involved in placing weapons in the hands of bad guys/our enemies.

3. Good cops aren't just looking for low level flunkies doing the bidding of sophisticated and well financed organized crime members. ATF was trying to catch the higher level players.

3. Guns don't kill people. It's the low life, drug smuggling [fill in the blank] that pulled the trigger.

 

Feel free to blame the guy who financed him too.

 

You give a typical reply of a cop. You think as long as a badge is behind it, it is right and lawful. ATF is not the same as a everyday beat cop. To say that is to not really understand how Federal agencies work. Nor does it give them or ANY agency(local, state,federal) the right to break the law to catch crooks. There is something like 1400 guns they(ATF) let go that they cant track. Yet if I did this, I would be in a federal prison spending a decent portion of my life if not all of it. I have a healthy respect for law enforecement but knowing some as family and friends, I also see there "The law applies to everyone but us" attitude. It seems it was the uppers in this sting operation who did wrong not the subordinates. Yes it is still the gun runner who commits the crime but it is the agency who is supposed to stop it not become part of it. I dont say this to be offensive but I think you need to look at things as a free-individual American citizen and less a cop!

[LawDog]

BearDown - My response to your initial post was focused more on what I believed seemed like an attack on anyone and everyone who works for ATF. I get the impression that your focus is really directed more at the policy makers than the subordinates. So be it. I agree that political appointees and opportunists can wreak havoc on any initially well designed plan. I also suspect that most agents with ATF are vets that were looking for any job in any federal law enforcement agency who had spots to fill when they finished their service.

 

As for what you feel is a double standard, I get and respect your libertarian analysis. Nevertheless, there are loads of things police do everyday that would put the lay citizen in jail - speeding, kicking in someone's door and searching their house, setting up drug deals, etc., etc. But without these tools, we'd be subject to a lawless society as there's no way a cop could ever catch anybody.

 

Finally, I'm not a cop. The handle comes from one of my favorite movie quotes:

 

Ike Clanton: Listen, Mr. Kansas Law Dog. Law don't go around here. Savvy?

 

I guess it makes sense that Ike lived in your neck of the woods....

[Coach]

BearDown - My response to your initial post was focused more on what I believed seemed like an attack on anyone and everyone who works for ATF. I get the impression that your focus is really directed more at the policy makers than the subordinates. So be it. I agree that political appointees and opportunists can wreak havoc on any initially well designed plan. I also suspect that most agents with ATF are vets that were looking for any job in any federal law enforcement agency who had spots to fill when they finished their service.

 

As for what you feel is a double standard, I get and respect your libertarian analysis. Nevertheless, there are loads of things police do everyday that would put the lay citizen in jail - speeding, kicking in someone's door and searching their house, setting up drug deals, etc., etc. But without these tools, we'd be subject to a lawless society as there's no way a cop could ever catch anybody.

 

Finally, I'm not a cop. The handle comes from one of my favorite movie quotes:

 

Ike Clanton: Listen, Mr. Kansas Law Dog. Law don't go around here. Savvy?

 

I guess it makes sense that Ike lived in your neck of the woods....

 

LOL Lawdog - one of my favorite movies...

 

[DesertBull]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

[BeardownAZ]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

 

This!!

[BeardownAZ]

.

Finally, I'm not a cop. The handle comes from one of my favorite movie quotes:

 

Ike Clanton: Listen, Mr. Kansas Law Dog. Law don't go around here. Savvy?

 

I guess it makes sense that Ike lived in your neck of the woods....

 

 

What part of my post asked for lawlessness?? None. I stated it doesnt make it right for Agencies to break the law any more than the common man. My views merely reflect what our constitution states and was intended to do. Keep the power of the country in the hand of the free people and keep the government(including cops,ATF, etc) and its powers in check. And i guess it makes sense that Janet Napolitano is from your neck of the woods!

[cw4192]

THE FED'S PIGGY BACK ON ALL STATE AND LOCAL STAT'S AND THEY DO VERY LITTLE IN THE FIELD OR THE STREET'S. THEY HAVE A BUNCH OF COLLEGE EDUCATED FRAT BOY'S THAT HAVE NO CLUE WHAT POLICE WORK IS.