Unit 1, 27, 29, 35a, 36b Hunt closure

[AZLance]

Zzzzzzz....

[cdenton]

.270 I agree that there is alot a problems with gov't these days and yes the Forest Service is a government entity so thus the problems with gov't are seen in forest management. However there are many people trying to and doing some great things in the forest these days. This includes myself and I am proud to be associated with the Forest Service (not circus). I consider myself lucky to have my office be located in the woods I grew up in and it was very emotional to watch this fire consume so much of it... and for all those that think it is all black stick, let me tell you first hand there is still alot of green out there. I think people need to realize that the real problem is in D.C. and I know you as well as many other people realize this. My suggestion is, and this may sound corny, write your congressman. Get involved, tell all your friends to take action. It won't change tomorrow but if enough people stand up and shout something may get done.

jdnuts20,

 

You nailed it. Everybody wants to blame the forest service that they stopped logging and they don't want to do this and that. The fact is our hands are tied so bad. We get blamed for everything because we are the land managers but the problem lies much higher than that level. The green trucks are whats in the public eye so that's who gets blamed for everything. One other thing is that the firefighters on the frontline that are getting praise are alot of the same people that manage the land. Whether they are a grunt who fixes fence on an allotment or thinning trees for a meadow restoration project they are a land manager in some aspect of it. There is alot of dam good people and very smart people that know how to manage the land in the forest service. But they aren't allowed to do it and it does come to money and politics just like lark said but it's at a much higher level of government than the forest service. Everybody wants to say that we let the enviros push us around and blah blah blah but the fact is you the public probably have more say than we do in the agency. We try to put logging projects through and other things and they get appealed and it ends up in court and it ends up getting political definitely when DC gets involved and it has nothing to do with the forest service not trying to get shoot done and letting them walk all over us. Like jdnuts said write your congressman. Alot of you have posted its our land. You are correct it is public land. You can sit back and throw spitwads from the sideline and point fingers cause you don't know what your talking about or step up and write your senator and try to make a difference. It's sad to say but you as the public have more power than we as the land managers have and we work for the govt. Our hands are tied and there is so much red tape and loopholes to go through to get anything done. Its sad to say but sometimes some homes have to burn for some dumbass to open his eyes and then keep the enviros off our back for awhile. After the RC fire we were able to get some thinning projects thru without them appealing us. But after a few years we are right back where we started if not worse. The eagar south wui project south of eagar I was a part of and CBD appealed us on that project. Those treatments really helped and the fire layed down and really helped the community. No homes burned. CBD is now trying to take credit for those treatments saying it was a collaborative effort. That's crap. The only effort they gave was trying to put a 16 inch cap on that project and every other project out there. That's the kind of stuff we are stuck with on projects. They will flat appeal us if we want to cut trees bigger than 16 inches. So we can fight them on it and get appealed and fight in court for a few years and then may get a fire and lose everything or you can agree to the cap and at least move on with the project not getting the forest back to a healthy ecosystem but at least getting thinning done and protecting a community that could burn. Those are tough decisions. Dam right you need to stand up against them and fight them on it but that's happened in the past then homes have been lost because of it. Actually i'm the team leader for a 40,000 acre thinning project we are doing basically from lakeside to vernon. That is the upper limits of a project we can do an analysis on at this time. With all the dam paperwork and red tape we have to get through in the analysis that's about all we can handle to get done in a reasonable timeframe and get something done on the ground. It's a large project but at the landscape scale its nothing and we need to be getting alot more done than that to make the forest sustainable again to where it is manageable. You probably remember the schultz fire near flagstaff last year. Major flooding problems on that. Forest service tried to do a logging project in that area. Guess what I don't remember if it was CBD but one of the envirogroups stopped that project. Those people should be held responsible and pay for the damage to peoples homes and whatever else. That's criminal. If my memory serves me right a young girl died in the flooding. They should be held responsible for that. People want to blame the forest service cause that's who they see, I guess I can't blame them cause if you don't know then well the green trucks are what I see in the woods it must be their fault. We have a big stewardship contract on the A/S forest. I don't remember the exact number but something like 20,000 acres thinned in the last 5 years or so. It's peanuts compared to what needs to be getting done. You don't even know all the dam paperwork, time, and fighting it took to just get those acres done. There is so much red tape and garbage we have to do as land managers to get stuff done. We need to knock these enviro groups down and get rid of all this red tape and bullshit and get out of the office and get stuff done on the ground. We need your help. Please write your senators, congressman. Step up and make a difference. Let us manage the land.

[SilentButDeadly]

For anyone who is interested - the research group I am affiliated with has been putting together a Landscape-scale fire management framework for the Coronado National Forest for the last 5 years. The project is called FireScape, and the intention is to move fire management from the scales we are used to seeing on Forests (10-1,000 acre projects) out to landscape scale (100,000-1,000,000 acres).

 

http://www.azfirescape.org/home - I encourage you all to check it out and give your feedback to the scoping documents posted there.

 

As with all things Gov't there are many hurdles (NEPA, Environmental Impact Statements, etc) to get over even before you get to possibly go to court against the Environmental groups.

 

A critical point is that the cost of suppression in still less than the cost of treatment: the Horseshoe 2 has already cost 51 million dollars (before infrastructure repair and BAER treatment), it burned 223,000 acres - that works out to $229.00 an acre, the Wallow $103.3 million / 538,049 acres = $192 acre. Mechanical treatments can cost up to $1000 an acre; Wildfire-Use or Prescribed fires typically cost ~$50 an acre. The trick to getting to landscape scale fire is making local infrastructure bomb-proof so you can let a fire go and do its thing - trying to do this in the Urban Interface makes managing fires for both resource protection (homes) and resource benefit (elk) a wicked problem.

 

For you guys in the debate about catching running crown fires with airplanes or helicopters - here is a video of the Las Conchas fire (that wiped out WFGin's cabin) less than 4 hours after it started - displaying a horizontal vortex roll (like a Tornado!), it likely released more energy than the A-bombs they build up the street in Los Alamos that afternoon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LJihgiPBSs&NR=1

[cdenton]

For anyone who is interested - the research group I am affiliated with has been putting together a Landscape-scale fire management framework for the Coronado National Forest for the last 5 years. The project is called FireScape, and the intention is to move fire management from the scales we are used to seeing on Forests (10-1,000 acre projects) out to landscape scale (100,000-1,000,000 acres).

 

http://www.azfirescape.org/home - I encourage you all to check it out and give your feedback to the scoping documents posted there.

 

As with all things Gov't there are many hurdles (NEPA, Environmental Impact Statements, etc) to get over even before you get to possibly go to court against the Environmental groups.

 

A critical point is that the cost of suppression in still less than the cost of treatment: the Horseshoe 2 has already cost 51 million dollars (before infrastructure repair and BAER treatment), it burned 223,000 acres - that works out to $229.00 an acre, the Wallow $103.3 million / 538,049 acres = $192 acre. Mechanical treatments can cost up to $1000 an acre; Wildfire-Use or Prescribed fires typically cost ~$50 an acre. The trick to getting to landscape scale fire is making local infrastructure bomb-proof so you can let a fire go and do its thing - trying to do this in the Urban Interface makes managing fires for both resource protection (homes) and resource benefit (elk) a wicked problem.

 

For you guys in the debate about catching running crown fires with airplanes or helicopters - here is a video of the Las Conchas fire (that wiped out WFGin's cabin) less than 4 hours after it started - displaying a horizontal vortex roll (like a Tornado!), it likely released more energy than the A-bombs they build up the street in Los Alamos that afternoon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LJihgiPBSs&NR=1

That is some great research work you guys are doing. I never really calculated the costs and have seen that suppression costs are lower than treatment costs. That's pretty interesting. Ya the problem we have now is that we can't let fires go in alot of locations cause it is too thick and we need to thin it before reintroducing fire.

[ratherbehunting]

 

Enough about these waterbomber planes. You stated that your a commercial pilot and that you havent fought fires. Then you don't know what goes on, on these fires. Nobody is bashing your precious little 215s. They are probably very useful in canada or california where you have a ton of water. We don't have these large bodies of water up here and we had a major wind event when this fire started along with heavy heavy fuels. We are not talking brush and grass. Have you personally flown in and out of bear wallow and the canyons and terrain that this fire was in. The fire was spotting 3 miles ahead of itself. The wind was crazy. Our lookout towers had gusts over 60 miles per hour. Sorry but your analogy if we would have had a bunch of those planes this fire would have been stopped. It would have been pissing into the wind. You say they carry 6 times the amount of a heavy helicopter. So that's at least 6000 gallons. They would never be able to drop very low in the terrain this fire was in. The water would have ended up everywhere. The saying pissing in the wind would have fit real well here. Nobodys arguing that there isn't a place for them. They may do great in the desert near roosevelt where you can attack a fire fast and you don't have major spotting with thick timber and major topograph and you have a quick turnaround.

 

You read the article or the specs? More like 1 million gallons over 4 hours for 1 plane. I can only find a 34 kt peak gust on any of the weather stations in a 100 mile radius of the area...the other manager says they had aerial suppression going right away and you say it was too windy? Which is it? No offense but your and a few others defensive posts are exactly why these things happen.

 

Next up....forest service supports fellow government agency TSA searching underwear of 95 year old great grandmother in airport security. Says that's the right thing to do.

[Elkhunter1]

OK OK I am done talking about this!!!!! Everybody get off your a@@ and write to your congressman and senator!!! The only thing they will listen to is the ticking of their career light going out!

[coues7]

Nelson Reservoir is currently being drained (2001-07-01). Tickets were being issued to ANYONE who attempted to fish the lake over the past few days. Ironically enough, though it sets next to the road to Alpine and you don't even have to walk anywhere except across the street, it is closed. Thanks US Forest Circus. Great job, burn up the forest, ruin our local economy, close all the forest.....the list is endless. Considering the state of the economy, this is really going to boost our economic recovery!

[Broken Wheels]

Has anybody ever asked themselves why we still have forests at all when "back in the day" when fires started by lightning or natural causes or heck for any reason we didn't have all this high tech equipment with helicopters hauling huge bags of water or chemicals sprayed from fixed wing aircraft (planes to you civilians)and thousands of men and women on the lines and bull dozers and what ever else they use now to "fight the fires"? The stuff burned, burned itself out and magically we have had hundreds of thousands of acres of forests since any of us can ever recall!

 

It is funny to hear some of you "talk" about breaking the law (catch me if you can)and then in past threads you swear up and down you are a law abiding, honest, clean brave, reverent (don't remember all the boy scout motto)hunters and outdoorsmen? Too funny...

[.270]

i'm the last guy to go with the globabl warming crap, but it doesn't rain as much now as it did a few years ago. that is a big part of the problem. that combined with the other factors has made things tough. you guys that work for the usfs need to really read what folks say. they ain't yellin' at you. but they are upset with the company you work for. and the company you work for has made some really stupid, glaring, idiotic decisions lately. don't even consider the wallow fire. how many controlled burns got away from the usfs just in the white mt's last year? what about that little controlled burn that got away and burned los alamos a few years ago? when every major deciding factor was violated by the management there. a guy can't even go camping anymore without some weirdo from the usfs coming to your camp and basically threatening you with prison time if you let your fire get away. some john denver looking weirdo with gloves on came in our camp twice last summer to tell us we were going to go to prison if our fire got away and we didn't have a fire either time he was there. folks are having more and more negative contact with the usfs and seldom have a positive contact. it is harder to enjoy the woods. more and more regulation. less and less freedom. even if you're doing things right. here's another good one. what about that scar the usfs cut from atchison res. to big lake? supposed to be a quad trail and stuff but now it is just for hiking. in a place where nobody hikes. i would bet it has never been used. the usfs cut a gash across some really neat prarie for no reason other than to spend a few bucks. there are probably hundreds of other examples that others can add to the list too that i don't know about. add all this up and then toss this fire on top of it and folks get a little riled up. it's real apparant that things could have been handled differently. some really good communication would have helped. i haven't seen one thing where they usfs ha s refuted any rumors. that would help. it makes a guy wonder why they haven't. it's a dang shame that the idiots that started this fire did. but it's also a shame the things the led up to the situation that added to it and helped it get outta control. it's a big problem and joe forest ranger is in hard place. but that's the nature of the beast. if you're gonna ride for the brand you have to be able to take the negative stuff too. i worked for the power company for 31 years. i can't even start to tell you how many times i got yelled at by customers because of things i had no control over. it's hard to not take it personall. but ya can't. good luck. Lark.

[cdenton]

 

Enough about these waterbomber planes. You stated that your a commercial pilot and that you havent fought fires. Then you don't know what goes on, on these fires. Nobody is bashing your precious little 215s. They are probably very useful in canada or california where you have a ton of water. We don't have these large bodies of water up here and we had a major wind event when this fire started along with heavy heavy fuels. We are not talking brush and grass. Have you personally flown in and out of bear wallow and the canyons and terrain that this fire was in. The fire was spotting 3 miles ahead of itself. The wind was crazy. Our lookout towers had gusts over 60 miles per hour. Sorry but your analogy if we would have had a bunch of those planes this fire would have been stopped. It would have been pissing into the wind. You say they carry 6 times the amount of a heavy helicopter. So that's at least 6000 gallons. They would never be able to drop very low in the terrain this fire was in. The water would have ended up everywhere. The saying pissing in the wind would have fit real well here. Nobodys arguing that there isn't a place for them. They may do great in the desert near roosevelt where you can attack a fire fast and you don't have major spotting with thick timber and major topograph and you have a quick turnaround.

 

You read the article or the specs? More like 1 million gallons over 4 hours for 1 plane. I can only find a 34 kt peak gust on any of the weather stations in a 100 mile radius of the area...the other manager says they had aerial suppression going right away and you say it was too windy? Which is it? No offense but your and a few others defensive posts are exactly why these things happen.

 

Next up....forest service supports fellow government agency TSA searching underwear of 95 year old great grandmother in airport security. Says that's the right thing to do.

I don't know why you want to continue to argue about something that you weren't there and have no clue about. So this is my final post on the matter. One of our lookout towers called in winds that were 70 plus and not measurable on the instrument she had. Some aircraft was grounded because it was too windy and they safely couldn't fly in those conditions and terrain ect. Just like jdnuts said airtankers were dropping retardant but due to the high winds were not effective at all. Pilots called in on the radio daily that due to the column and amount of smoke that they couldn't fly. The wind would shear the column over and the amount of smoke was insane and the pilots said they could not get in there and they couldn't even see where the fire edge was due to no visibility and they shut down. Thats what happened on this fire. You can argue all you want about some article and something did this in canada. All anybody is saying is this is what happened on this fire.

[Coach]

Anyone else ready to just say, let's stick a fork in this one? It's done. The guys on the ground worked their butts off - and continue to do so. Compared to the R/C fire, very few structures were lost. Lots of great country burned, some badly, most mildly. In the long run, we're going to see more game in most or all of the burned areas. Most of us can only speculate about the politics and legal wrangling or budget issues that went on.

 

What's done is done. The fire burned through a lot of awesome country. Some of it will be better for it, some of it won't. There's nothing that can change what has already happened. We can support our fire fighters and lobby for change at the higher levels. The rest is just venting, and pointing fingers, which isn't going to change a thing.

 

Maybe it's time to say, we had a bad fire, and we're all going to deal with the good and bad that will come from it.