Unit 1, 27, 29, 35a, 36b Hunt closure

[cdenton]

To clarify some things. Can air tankers fly when the wind is blowing 60 miles an hour like when this fire started. heck no they can't. All these stupid rumors that the fire was let go and nobody did anything for a week and air tankers didn't get called is a bunch of horseshit. Ive fought fire for 19 years and I've yet to see an air tanker stop a fire. All it is, is a tool to buy the ground resources some time to get in there and build line and burn and do what they need to do. And at that generally these fires get big cause of the wind. Well whens it's windy the tankers are grounded. The rumors are stupid enough but the people that believe them and continue to spread them is even more ignorance. Do you really in your mind believe that the fire was let to burn in the drought conditions we are in. heck no you don't but everybody wants to point a finger and blame somebody. I understand that everybody doesn't know all about fire but if you don't know then why all the i heard this and causing this ridiculous soap opera. If you weren't there and don't know the facts leave it alone. There were resources ordered and put on the fire the second the lookout tower called the fire in. Trust me I was there from the start. The fact is that the fire started in a very steeep, thick, nasty place and with those crazy winds there's not alot you can do. Theres alot of behind the scenes stuff that goes on. Just cause it wasn't on the 10 oclock news doesn't mean it didn't happen. I totally understand the frustration of the country burning up. I've hunted and fished the country in the wallow fire my entire life. It was very emotional to watch the fire burn. But guess what the whole 500,000 acres isn't black sticks and all the animals aren't burned up like you may be hearing. I've been on the fire since may 31 and I haven't seen a dead animal yet. Is there some, of course there is but from what I've seen on the ground and on the burn severity map the majority of the country was a nice ground fire. The grasslands that were burned already are greening up. There are elk all over the burn area that I see everyday and alot of elk calves. Saw some turkeys with a bunch of little poults yesterday in an area that burned pretty hot. These animals are pretty resilient. From past experience and what I've seen on the ground on this fire there is gonna be some dam great habitat. They weren't killing 200 inch bucks in 3C like they are now before the RC fire. Fire is a dam good tool and needs to be brought back in like it used to manage the ecosystem once we can get landscape scale thinning done so the burn intensity is lower. Theres also been alot of rumors that the fire was let go cause of the wolves and spotted owl and no dozer line was put in. That is all misconception. I was a dozer boss at the beginning of this fire. Trust me, I put on alot of miles putting in dozer line and the wolves or spotted owls didn't affect that. In fact the misconception of the spotted owl stopping logging is garbage. Good luck getting equipment where those birds are. They are generally in thick mixed conifer on slopes greater than 40%. Are there issues with some of the forest service. heck yes there is just like every other agency, business, store or wherever you work. Theres alot of misconception that the forest service doesn't log or graze or manage anything. Theres alot of effort and analysis going on to get things done on the ground. The fact is that hands are tied due to enivironmentalists appealing and holding up alot of projects in court. Theres alot of dam red tape that needs to be cut to get stuff done. Theres alot of stuff that needs to be changed but it's at the Wash DC level. It's laws and regulations and not giving the environmental groups so much power. Theres alot of dam treatments that were done around alpine, nutrioso, eagar, and greer that helped save alot of homes. Those were all forest service projects and the environmental groups fought us every inch of the way and now they are trying to take credit saying it was a collaborative effort. Not even close. These groups need to be knocked down and the forest brought back to where it use to function ecologically 140 years ago. I ain't afraid to say I work for the forest service cause I know theres alot of dam good people that care about the land and that are trying to make a difference. I have thick skin and know what the real story is so i'm not to worried about things people say. But lets try this on for size. Theres alot of young kids that are out here busting their butt and risking their lives to save peoples homes and save the forest. I've personally went 16 days before without showering. I went 7 days on this fire without showering and went 30 hours without eating trying to do the right thing. But all i hear is the forest service is stupid and doesn't know anything, and let this fire go on purpose, and didn't order air tankers, and didn't put in dozer line cause of wolves. How the heck does that make you feel after you've been out there busting your butt, starving, tired, away from your family, sore, eating smoke. Trust me it's great for morale. What do these 18 year kids think getting a job thinking they are doing a good thing and getting bashed on. These rumors and all the shittalk gets around camp pretty fast. How would you feel wherever you work if you busted your butt doing your job to your fullest capability and people bashed you without really knowing the truth of what really happens. Feel free to PM me and ask me anything that you may want to know. I'll be glad to inform you whatever I can. Sorry about the rant, but a person can only take so much and was just trying to educate what really goes on.

[jim]

cdenton that is the best post I have read on here. Thank you and your fellow fire fighters for fighting the good fight.

[DubTee]

Excellent post cdent, thanks for clearing that up, and thanks for what you guys are doing.

[kcw]

Kudos to you cdent.....bottom line be mad at the tree huggers not the boys putting thier lives on the line.

[assassin]

To clarify some things. Can air tankers fly when the wind is blowing 60 miles an hour like when this fire started. heck no they can't. All these stupid rumors that the fire was let go and nobody did anything for a week and air tankers didn't get called is a bunch of horseshit. Ive fought fire for 19 years and I've yet to see an air tanker stop a fire. All it is, is a tool to buy the ground resources some time to get in there and build line and burn and do what they need to do. And at that generally these fires get big cause of the wind. Well whens it's windy the tankers are grounded. The rumors are stupid enough but the people that believe them and continue to spread them is even more ignorance. Do you really in your mind believe that the fire was let to burn in the drought conditions we are in. heck no you don't but everybody wants to point a finger and blame somebody. I understand that everybody doesn't know all about fire but if you don't know then why all the i heard this and causing this ridiculous soap opera. If you weren't there and don't know the facts leave it alone. There were resources ordered and put on the fire the second the lookout tower called the fire in. Trust me I was there from the start. The fact is that the fire started in a very steeep, thick, nasty place and with those crazy winds there's not alot you can do. Theres alot of behind the scenes stuff that goes on. Just cause it wasn't on the 10 oclock news doesn't mean it didn't happen. I totally understand the frustration of the country burning up. I've hunted and fished the country in the wallow fire my entire life. It was very emotional to watch the fire burn. But guess what the whole 500,000 acres isn't black sticks and all the animals aren't burned up like you may be hearing. I've been on the fire since may 31 and I haven't seen a dead animal yet. Is there some, of course there is but from what I've seen on the ground and on the burn severity map the majority of the country was a nice ground fire. The grasslands that were burned already are greening up. There are elk all over the burn area that I see everyday and alot of elk calves. Saw some turkeys with a bunch of little poults yesterday in an area that burned pretty hot. These animals are pretty resilient. From past experience and what I've seen on the ground on this fire there is gonna be some dam great habitat. They weren't killing 200 inch bucks in 3C like they are now before the RC fire. Fire is a dam good tool and needs to be brought back in like it used to manage the ecosystem once we can get landscape scale thinning done so the burn intensity is lower. Theres also been alot of rumors that the fire was let go cause of the wolves and spotted owl and no dozer line was put in. That is all misconception. I was a dozer boss at the beginning of this fire. Trust me, I put on alot of miles putting in dozer line and the wolves or spotted owls didn't affect that. In fact the misconception of the spotted owl stopping logging is garbage. Good luck getting equipment where those birds are. They are generally in thick mixed conifer on slopes greater than 40%. Are there issues with some of the forest service. heck yes there is just like every other agency, business, store or wherever you work. Theres alot of misconception that the forest service doesn't log or graze or manage anything. Theres alot of effort and analysis going on to get things done on the ground. The fact is that hands are tied due to enivironmentalists appealing and holding up alot of projects in court. Theres alot of dam red tape that needs to be cut to get stuff done. Theres alot of stuff that needs to be changed but it's at the Wash DC level. It's laws and regulations and not giving the environmental groups so much power. Theres alot of dam treatments that were done around alpine, nutrioso, eagar, and greer that helped save alot of homes. Those were all forest service projects and the environmental groups fought us every inch of the way and now they are trying to take credit saying it was a collaborative effort. Not even close. These groups need to be knocked down and the forest brought back to where it use to function ecologically 140 years ago. I ain't afraid to say I work for the forest service cause I know theres alot of dam good people that care about the land and that are trying to make a difference. I have thick skin and know what the real story is so i'm not to worried about things people say. But lets try this on for size. Theres alot of young kids that are out here busting their butt and risking their lives to save peoples homes and save the forest. I've personally went 16 days before without showering. I went 7 days on this fire without showering and went 30 hours without eating trying to do the right thing. But all i hear is the forest service is stupid and doesn't know anything, and let this fire go on purpose, and didn't order air tankers, and didn't put in dozer line cause of wolves. How the heck does that make you feel after you've been out there busting your butt, starving, tired, away from your family, sore, eating smoke. Trust me it's great for morale. What do these 18 year kids think getting a job thinking they are doing a good thing and getting bashed on. These rumors and all the shittalk gets around camp pretty fast. How would you feel wherever you work if you busted your butt doing your job to your fullest capability and people bashed you without really knowing the truth of what really happens. Feel free to PM me and ask me anything that you may want to know. I'll be glad to inform you whatever I can. Sorry about the rant, but a person can only take so much and was just trying to educate what really goes on.

 

Nice work Chuck! I second every bit of that and you only scratched the surface.

[ratherbehunting]

To clarify some things. Can air tankers fly when the wind is blowing 60 miles an hour like when this fire started. heck no they can't. All these stupid rumors that the fire was let go and nobody did anything for a week and air tankers didn't get called is a bunch of horseshit. Ive fought fire for 19 years and I've yet to see an air tanker stop a fire. All it is, is a tool to buy the ground resources some time to get in there and build line and burn and do what they need to do. And at that generally these fires get big cause of the wind. Well whens it's windy the tankers are grounded. The rumors are stupid enough but the people that believe them and continue to spread them is even more ignorance. Do you really in your mind believe that the fire was let to burn in the drought conditions we are in. heck no you don't but everybody wants to point a finger and blame somebody. I understand that everybody doesn't know all about fire but if you don't know then why all the i heard this and causing this ridiculous soap opera. If you weren't there and don't know the facts leave it alone. There were resources ordered and put on the fire the second the lookout tower called the fire in. Trust me I was there from the start. The fact is that the fire started in a very steeep, thick, nasty place and with those crazy winds there's not alot you can do. Theres alot of behind the scenes stuff that goes on. Just cause it wasn't on the 10 oclock news doesn't mean it didn't happen. I totally understand the frustration of the country burning up. I've hunted and fished the country in the wallow fire my entire life. It was very emotional to watch the fire burn. But guess what the whole 500,000 acres isn't black sticks and all the animals aren't burned up like you may be hearing. I've been on the fire since may 31 and I haven't seen a dead animal yet. Is there some, of course there is but from what I've seen on the ground and on the burn severity map the majority of the country was a nice ground fire. The grasslands that were burned already are greening up. There are elk all over the burn area that I see everyday and alot of elk calves. Saw some turkeys with a bunch of little poults yesterday in an area that burned pretty hot. These animals are pretty resilient. From past experience and what I've seen on the ground on this fire there is gonna be some dam great habitat. They weren't killing 200 inch bucks in 3C like they are now before the RC fire. Fire is a dam good tool and needs to be brought back in like it used to manage the ecosystem once we can get landscape scale thinning done so the burn intensity is lower. Theres also been alot of rumors that the fire was let go cause of the wolves and spotted owl and no dozer line was put in. That is all misconception. I was a dozer boss at the beginning of this fire. Trust me, I put on alot of miles putting in dozer line and the wolves or spotted owls didn't affect that. In fact the misconception of the spotted owl stopping logging is garbage. Good luck getting equipment where those birds are. They are generally in thick mixed conifer on slopes greater than 40%. Are there issues with some of the forest service. heck yes there is just like every other agency, business, store or wherever you work. Theres alot of misconception that the forest service doesn't log or graze or manage anything. Theres alot of effort and analysis going on to get things done on the ground. The fact is that hands are tied due to enivironmentalists appealing and holding up alot of projects in court. Theres alot of dam red tape that needs to be cut to get stuff done. Theres alot of stuff that needs to be changed but it's at the Wash DC level. It's laws and regulations and not giving the environmental groups so much power. Theres alot of dam treatments that were done around alpine, nutrioso, eagar, and greer that helped save alot of homes. Those were all forest service projects and the environmental groups fought us every inch of the way and now they are trying to take credit saying it was a collaborative effort. Not even close. These groups need to be knocked down and the forest brought back to where it use to function ecologically 140 years ago. I ain't afraid to say I work for the forest service cause I know theres alot of dam good people that care about the land and that are trying to make a difference. I have thick skin and know what the real story is so i'm not to worried about things people say. But lets try this on for size. Theres alot of young kids that are out here busting their butt and risking their lives to save peoples homes and save the forest. I've personally went 16 days before without showering. I went 7 days on this fire without showering and went 30 hours without eating trying to do the right thing. But all i hear is the forest service is stupid and doesn't know anything, and let this fire go on purpose, and didn't order air tankers, and didn't put in dozer line cause of wolves. How the heck does that make you feel after you've been out there busting your butt, starving, tired, away from your family, sore, eating smoke. Trust me it's great for morale. What do these 18 year kids think getting a job thinking they are doing a good thing and getting bashed on. These rumors and all the shittalk gets around camp pretty fast. How would you feel wherever you work if you busted your butt doing your job to your fullest capability and people bashed you without really knowing the truth of what really happens. Feel free to PM me and ask me anything that you may want to know. I'll be glad to inform you whatever I can. Sorry about the rant, but a person can only take so much and was just trying to educate what really goes on.

 

No one is bashing the front line guys or the 18 yr kids. They all did/are doing a great job. Kudos to all.

 

30 yr NF managers protecting their pensions and the huggers is another thing.

 

I only gotta take exception to the first part about the 60 kt winds and flying and that is only because i've spent 30 years flying and watching fires get put out first hand by CL 215s. And yes in other states and provinces they apply tanker support first and hotshots second. If the tankers don't get it out, then they call in a hot shot crew who usually only gets in via helo or parachute. When I was exposed to this many moons ago the tankers were state owned and there were no political and/or monetary restrictions on calling in air support immediately even on a small tree 100 miles from the nearest road. In this state it seems to be backward - the ground crews do the heavy lifting and the air support seems to be secondary or non-existent.

 

LA Fire district rents two of these every summer from Quebec and Ontario. BC, Ontario and Quebec have dedicated fleets of Air Tankers on call at all times. But they also have forestry industries with more powerful lobbys than the tree huggers.

 

NO ONE, including me, is having any issue with the front line guys. Job well done. Thank you for doing a tough job!

 

However, when it comes to NF and fire management in this state, I'll agree that the there are problems with the huggers and their lawyers. But again, other than the AZGFD guy on the news one night skewing CBD, everyone else has been silent and letting those morons get away with it.

 

AND, if you are saying that there is no politics in NF management calling in real air tanker assets early enough, then we have some differences on that. BTW, the winds were less than 20 kts days 1, 2, and 3...and probably calm in the mornings according to my sources. ASNF/state managers were late in calling in tanker support and I'll stick to my guns on that criticism. And when people's homes started burning and the news crews all showed up, they called out that heavy which imho was/is nothing more than a PR stunt to quiet legit criticism.

 

No forest lobby and no real state owned and available air tanker assets have led to two really bad and major fires that you sure don't see in any of the states and provinces with large lumber companies. We have had two major fires in 6 years and it ain't going to get better. We owe it to ourselves and our roles as conservation-minded people to ask what we are doing wrong.

 

Maybe we do need to start to organize some protests and hire lawyers to sue - apparently that works for the other side.

[jdnuts20]

ratherbhunting - I respect that you were a pilot for many years, but I was literally the third resource on scene and I have been at this game a long time (18 years) and have seen what tankers and helos can and can not do. The wind was howling that first day, youre "insider" must have been sitting in a truck or something. An air tanker would not have changed the outcome on the start of this at all except drive up the cost. Air tankers do not put out fires, period. That retardent would have blown all over the place and dried out before anyone could have used it. The IC was in no way constrained in ordering air support what so ever. It would have been very ineffective. I am on the same page as cdenton, us on the ground folks were busting our butts to get this thing put out from minute one. It was an butt kicking fire, the fuels, country, weather all contributed to this getting so big. I literally saw people standing in front of the flames to the point where they had to run to get out of the way in order to try to hold this thing.

[ratherbehunting]

ratherbhunting - I respect that you were a pilot for many years, but I was literally the third resource on scene and I have been at this game a long time (18 years) and have seen what tankers and helos can and can not do. The wind was howling that first day, youre "insider" must have been sitting in a truck or something. An air tanker would not have changed the outcome on the start of this at all except drive up the cost. Air tankers do not put out fires, period. That retardent would have blown all over the place and dried out before anyone could have used it. The IC was in no way constrained in ordering air support what so ever. It would have been very ineffective. I am on the same page as cdenton, us on the ground folks were busting our butts to get this thing put out from minute one. It was an butt kicking fire, the fuels, country, weather all contributed to this getting so big. I literally saw people standing in front of the flames to the point where they had to run to get out of the way in order to try to hold this thing.

 

I thank you for your dedication and work out there....I certainly don't mean to minimize it.

 

All I am saying is unless you have seen CL215's scooping and dumping every 10 minutes in a serious run, you haven't seen the full effect of tankers on a fire. I have. I have never seen CL 215s used in this state and with two major fires in the last while, we are doing something very wrong.

 

You are looking at it from the perspective of ground crews and that is all I am saying....in AZ we seem to be doing it backward from what other places do. Can you honestly tell me if they had 5-6 dedicated tankers working this fire from day 1 that would not have had an effect?

 

Consider this wiki web snippet:

 

"Fleet grounding:

 

In the United States, most of these aircraft are privately owned and contracted to government agencies, and the National Guard and the U.S. Marines also maintain fleets of firefighting aircraft. On May 10, 2004, The U.S. Forest Service (USFS) and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) announced that they were cancelling contracts with operators of 33 heavy airtankers. They cited liability concerns and an inability to safely manage the fleet after the wing failure and resulting crash of a C-130A Hercules in California and a PB4Y-2 in Colorado during the summer of 2002. Both aged aircraft broke up in flight due to catastrophic fatigue cracks at the wing roots. After subsequent third-party examination and extensive testing of all USFS contracted heavy airtankers, three companies were awarded contracts and now maintain a combined fleet of 23 aircraft."

 

and compare it with this one...

 

"Some firefighting aircraft can refill their tanks in mid-flight, by flying down to skim the surface of large bodies of water. One example is the Bombardier 415. This is particularly useful in rural areas where flying back to an airbase for refills may take too much time. In 2002 an Ontario CL-415 crew proceeded to refill 100 times within a 4 hour mission, dumping an astounding 162,000 US gallons (613,170 litres) or 1,350,000 pounds of water on a fire near Dryden Ontario."

 

All I am saying is that the politics of aerial firefighting is BS in this country. Press and environuts and professional bureaucrats have wrecked it imho. I checked the wind reports - the peak gust was 34 kts, the average wind was 20 kts. No offense but in the summer in the SW USA, that is standard flying wx. No clouds, great vis. Roosevelt full and 10 minutes flying time away. Again, one crash in 2004 and the bureaucrats ran for cover. Why we don't have a bunch of these 415's in the govt service is even more political BS.

 

No - just observing and thinking outside the box we could do things a lot differently.

[jdnuts20]

ratherbhunting - for the record, on day 2 there was at least 4 heavy air tankers working this fire when it was relatively small. I personally observed them flying and dropping. This fire blew right through it. You have to understand the magnitude of this fire, it was incredible. The timber was so thick and terrain so steep that it was throwing spot fires up to 3 miles away. I am increasingly frustrated with so many arm chair quarterbacks saying this could have been stopped with some air support. We had it and guess what...didn't work too well. As far as the CL 215s, I haven't seen them operate but we live in AZ...not the amount of water available that Canada has. Still doubt it would have stopped this fire. You have to remember that within a few hours of this fire starting a spot fire developed 2 to 3 miles away...now you have 2 fires cranking away in 30-40 mph winds.

[CouesWhitetail]

thanks for the post cdenton! I appreciate your work and you seem right on to me.

[cdenton]

ratherbhunting - I respect that you were a pilot for many years, but I was literally the third resource on scene and I have been at this game a long time (18 years) and have seen what tankers and helos can and can not do. The wind was howling that first day, youre "insider" must have been sitting in a truck or something. An air tanker would not have changed the outcome on the start of this at all except drive up the cost. Air tankers do not put out fires, period. That retardent would have blown all over the place and dried out before anyone could have used it. The IC was in no way constrained in ordering air support what so ever. It would have been very ineffective. I am on the same page as cdenton, us on the ground folks were busting our butts to get this thing put out from minute one. It was an butt kicking fire, the fuels, country, weather all contributed to this getting so big. I literally saw people standing in front of the flames to the point where they had to run to get out of the way in order to try to hold this thing.

 

I thank you for your dedication and work out there....I certainly don't mean to minimize it.

 

All I am saying is unless you have seen CL215's scooping and dumping every 10 minutes in a serious run, you haven't seen the full effect of tankers on a fire. I have. I have never seen CL 215s used in this state and with two major fires in the last while, we are doing something very wrong.

 

You are looking at it from the perspective of ground crews and that is all I am saying....in AZ we seem to be doing it backward from what other places do. Can you honestly tell me if they had 5-6 dedicated tankers working this fire from day 1 that would not have had an effect?

 

Consider this wiki web snippet:

 

"Fleet grounding:

 

In the United States, most of these aircraft are privately owned and contracted to government agencies, and the National Guard and the U.S. Marines also maintain fleets of firefighting aircraft. On May 10, 2004, The U.S. Forest Service (USFS) and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) announced that they were cancelling contracts with operators of 33 heavy airtankers. They cited liability concerns and an inability to safely manage the fleet after the wing failure and resulting crash of a C-130A Hercules in California and a PB4Y-2 in Colorado during the summer of 2002. Both aged aircraft broke up in flight due to catastrophic fatigue cracks at the wing roots. After subsequent third-party examination and extensive testing of all USFS contracted heavy airtankers, three companies were awarded contracts and now maintain a combined fleet of 23 aircraft."

 

and compare it with this one...

 

"Some firefighting aircraft can refill their tanks in mid-flight, by flying down to skim the surface of large bodies of water. One example is the Bombardier 415. This is particularly useful in rural areas where flying back to an airbase for refills may take too much time. In 2002 an Ontario CL-415 crew proceeded to refill 100 times within a 4 hour mission, dumping an astounding 162,000 US gallons (613,170 litres) or 1,350,000 pounds of water on a fire near Dryden Ontario."

 

All I am saying is that the politics of aerial firefighting is BS in this country. Press and environuts and professional bureaucrats have wrecked it imho. I checked the wind reports - the peak gust was 34 kts, the average wind was 20 kts. No offense but in the summer in the SW USA, that is standard flying wx. No clouds, great vis. Roosevelt full and 10 minutes flying time away. Again, one crash in 2004 and the bureaucrats ran for cover. Why we don't have a bunch of these 415's in the govt service is even more political BS.

 

No - just observing and thinking outside the box we could do things a lot differently.

As being an ex hotshot for many years I never went to a fire by parachute and dam i must have missed all those helicopter rides. My body might not hurt so bad these days if I would have caught them rides and not have to hike so much. Not sure if your sources with the 20 knot winds were down at sky harbor but that wasn't the case up on the fire. Pretty sure 20 knot winds wouldn't start spot fires 3 miles away. Geez those planes are fast if they can be to the fire in ten minutes from roosevelt. I did not know that they were as quick as the space shuttle. As for the CL-415 they probably do a great job in CANADA. Would be nice to do a 100 drops in four hours. They don't call this the arid southwest for no reason. It would be great if we had all that water like they do I would probably run down there to wal mart and grab me another fishing pole. You have the politics of the aerial firefighting in this country backwards. Politics is why all the aircraft is in the air in the first place. Look at the cost of the wallow fire. Pretty dang high and alot of that cost is aerial firefighting. Speaking specifically to the wallow fire the fact is that airtankers aren't real effective in this terrain. They don't manuever real well and have to drop from very high in alot of locations and with the wind that makes it even worse. You are correct that it is political. Video on the news of the tankers and this real pretty pink stuff spraying to the ground and bam the fires out. Total misconception. I'm not saying they aren't effective at all. There is a need for them and place for them where they are very effective but they don't put fires out. I'll tell you what did help tremendously on this fire is the heavy helicopters. We saved alot of homes in especially the alpine area due to the short turnaround time at luna lake and them being able to drop a little lower and be alot more effective in the wind than the tankers were.

[Coach]

Another thanks to the guys with boots in the dirt out there. On the one hand, it's easy to sit back and criticize what could have been done - or speculate about what should have been done. I'm guilty here - maybe because I just can't help getting emotional when it comes to some of the coolest country around, places I've spent my summers camping, scouting setting trail cameras, falls hunting, decades of just being out there, and seeing it all burn.

 

For you guys who have been out there since day-one, I hope you don't take my criticism of this fire and its handling personally. Growing up, this time of year was always "fire season" as I'd watch my own dad go off to fight fires all over the country. I got to hear his take on what was being done well, and what was "just for show". I know how hard you guys work, and how you also have to fight the politics of a big fire while trying to focus on the fire itself.

 

CDenton, jdnuts20, I'm speaking to you directly. I apologize if you think my assessment of how this fire was handled was directed at you. It's not. I do have disagreements with some of the federal policies and higher-ups. But for you first responders, you have my respect and gratitude.

 

Just want to get that out on the table.

[Elkhunter1]

cdenton, I would like to first THANK YOU AND THE OTHER "FRONT LINE" FIGHTERS. I know what you are saying as I worked the Bullock fire in Tucson. I was only in a supporting roll, as I kept the refrigerated trailers running and stocked. I saw first hand what a fire can put you guys through and I will always be in aw at the "TRUE GRIT" you guys posses. My comments was and will always be pointed at the decision makers that are politically motivated and not motivated consevationally. I know what it is like to be the "grunt" that doesn't see or hear the THANK YOU!!!!!! If my prior post has upset you or any of the other fire fighters I would like to take this opportunity to publicly apologize to you and the guys!!! I would like to see more air assets stationed in the southwest. Thank you for your time. Stephen Forrest

To clarify some things. Can air tankers fly when the wind is blowing 60 miles an hour like when this fire started. heck no they can't. All these stupid rumors that the fire was let go and nobody did anything for a week and air tankers didn't get called is a bunch of horseshit. Ive fought fire for 19 years and I've yet to see an air tanker stop a fire. All it is, is a tool to buy the ground resources some time to get in there and build line and burn and do what they need to do. And at that generally these fires get big cause of the wind. Well whens it's windy the tankers are grounded. The rumors are stupid enough but the people that believe them and continue to spread them is even more ignorance. Do you really in your mind believe that the fire was let to burn in the drought conditions we are in. heck no you don't but everybody wants to point a finger and blame somebody. I understand that everybody doesn't know all about fire but if you don't know then why all the i heard this and causing this ridiculous soap opera. If you weren't there and don't know the facts leave it alone. There were resources ordered and put on the fire the second the lookout tower called the fire in. Trust me I was there from the start. The fact is that the fire started in a very steeep, thick, nasty place and with those crazy winds there's not alot you can do. Theres alot of behind the scenes stuff that goes on. Just cause it wasn't on the 10 oclock news doesn't mean it didn't happen. I totally understand the frustration of the country burning up. I've hunted and fished the country in the wallow fire my entire life. It was very emotional to watch the fire burn. But guess what the whole 500,000 acres isn't black sticks and all the animals aren't burned up like you may be hearing. I've been on the fire since may 31 and I haven't seen a dead animal yet. Is there some, of course there is but from what I've seen on the ground and on the burn severity map the majority of the country was a nice ground fire. The grasslands that were burned already are greening up. There are elk all over the burn area that I see everyday and alot of elk calves. Saw some turkeys with a bunch of little poults yesterday in an area that burned pretty hot. These animals are pretty resilient. From past experience and what I've seen on the ground on this fire there is gonna be some dam great habitat. They weren't killing 200 inch bucks in 3C like they are now before the RC fire. Fire is a dam good tool and needs to be brought back in like it used to manage the ecosystem once we can get landscape scale thinning done so the burn intensity is lower. Theres also been alot of rumors that the fire was let go cause of the wolves and spotted owl and no dozer line was put in. That is all misconception. I was a dozer boss at the beginning of this fire. Trust me, I put on alot of miles putting in dozer line and the wolves or spotted owls didn't affect that. In fact the misconception of the spotted owl stopping logging is garbage. Good luck getting equipment where those birds are. They are generally in thick mixed conifer on slopes greater than 40%. Are there issues with some of the forest service. heck yes there is just like every other agency, business, store or wherever you work. Theres alot of misconception that the forest service doesn't log or graze or manage anything. Theres alot of effort and analysis going on to get things done on the ground. The fact is that hands are tied due to enivironmentalists appealing and holding up alot of projects in court. Theres alot of dam red tape that needs to be cut to get stuff done. Theres alot of stuff that needs to be changed but it's at the Wash DC level. It's laws and regulations and not giving the environmental groups so much power. Theres alot of dam treatments that were done around alpine, nutrioso, eagar, and greer that helped save alot of homes. Those were all forest service projects and the environmental groups fought us every inch of the way and now they are trying to take credit saying it was a collaborative effort. Not even close. These groups need to be knocked down and the forest brought back to where it use to function ecologically 140 years ago. I ain't afraid to say I work for the forest service cause I know theres alot of dam good people that care about the land and that are trying to make a difference. I have thick skin and know what the real story is so i'm not to worried about things people say. But lets try this on for size. Theres alot of young kids that are out here busting their butt and risking their lives to save peoples homes and save the forest. I've personally went 16 days before without showering. I went 7 days on this fire without showering and went 30 hours without eating trying to do the right thing. But all i hear is the forest service is stupid and doesn't know anything, and let this fire go on purpose, and didn't order air tankers, and didn't put in dozer line cause of wolves. How the heck does that make you feel after you've been out there busting your butt, starving, tired, away from your family, sore, eating smoke. Trust me it's great for morale. What do these 18 year kids think getting a job thinking they are doing a good thing and getting bashed on. These rumors and all the shittalk gets around camp pretty fast. How would you feel wherever you work if you busted your butt doing your job to your fullest capability and people bashed you without really knowing the truth of what really happens. Feel free to PM me and ask me anything that you may want to know. I'll be glad to inform you whatever I can. Sorry about the rant, but a person can only take so much and was just trying to educate what really goes on.

[FlyingW]

Nice post Chuck !!! We are proud of all you guys (and gals) for your effort and sacrifice during this fire...

[ratherbehunting]

Sigh. I give up.

 

Well if you're happy with what's happening in this state with wildfires keep on doing what your doing.

 

After all, WA, OR, BC, ON and QUEBEC have 10 times our forests and not near the fires and I know part of it at least is aggressive aerial firefighting capabilities. They can get just as dry as anyone else. We can rationalize all about costs and whine about the weather and the leftist lawyers and judges, but if we had 10 of those updated Cl 415 turboprop water bombers that can carry 6 times the water of a heavy helo and travel at 250 mph based in the SW mgmt region, I think without a doubt we would have a much more effective rapid response in place.

 

Add to that the environuts and the bureaucratic pushback of "let it burn because the judges won't let us thin" mentality in some of the upper echelons of the forestry management people and we all lose imho.

 

I'm out.