Unit 1, 27, 29, 35a, 36b Hunt closure

[CouesWhitetail]

Sigh. I give up.

 

Well if you're happy with what's happening in this state with wildfires keep on doing what your doing.

 

After all, WA, OR, BC, ON and QUEBEC have 10 times our forests and not near the fires and I know part of it at least is aggressive aerial firefighting capabilities. They can get just as dry as anyone else. We can rationalize all about costs and whine about the weather and the leftist lawyers and judges, but if we had 10 of those updated Cl 415 turboprop water bombers that can carry 6 times the water of a heavy helo and travel at 250 mph based in the SW mgmt region, I think without a doubt we would have a much more effective rapid response in place.

 

Add to that the environuts and the bureaucratic pushback of "let it burn because the judges won't let us thin" mentality in some of the upper echelons of the forestry management people and we all lose imho.

 

I'm out.

 

 

thx for all the info Steve! I don't know enough about aircraft to know if these will work in AZ or not (i trust your judgement on that), but I think you certainly are correct about finding new ways to fight the fires. Seems to me the current limitations of air support are just that they can't fly in high winds (fire crews report all the time that air support has been grounded due to high winds) and can't carry enough water or make trips fast enough to make a huge difference. Perhaps the water bombers you suggest would work much better.

[IA Born]

Definitely well put cdenton and jdnuts!! I'm a Fed, too, and I was on the Horsehoe 2 with a Type II IA crew and we busted our butts. In that steep country, there weren't many options but to back out and burn without putting firefitghters' lives at stake. There are way too many armchair quarterbacks. I've been on both sides, working to protect sensitive species and stop the fire. I can tell you first hand that a Federally listed species will NEVER be a reason that dozers are not used, that burn-outs are not done, and that fires are not suppressed to the fullest extent possible. I can point anyone to the portion of the ESA that says so. I watched fire crawl and run right through slurry drops on the Horsehoe 2. Yes, the flames slowed down for maybe 5-10 minutes in some areas, but they certainly didn't stop. We got all kinds of updates on the Wallow Fire while down there and you have to ask "How do you stop a fire that makes an 8-mile sustained crown run?". I've spent a great deal of time in the Chiricahuas, including Rucker Canyon and I've spent a great deal of time in Unit 27. Like cdention, I took it very personally and it was very emotional. If anyone really wants to point fingers, how about pointing them at the 2 individuals that didn't put out their campfire in red flag conditions?

[Dan]

This is the most informitive post I've ever read !!! I just wish the D.C. people could read it.THANK ALL YOU GUY'S THAT WERE ON ANY OF THE FIRES INCLUDING THE SUPPORT PEOPLE. You've done and are continuing to do a GREAT job!!!!

[ratherbehunting]

Here is a good article representing both views with regards LA County's renting a couple of these...old article...but it seems to cover both points of view as well as a detailed analysis of the money and politics involved:

 

http://wildfirenews.com/fire/articles/cl415.html

[cmc]

 

Maybe we do need to start to organize some protests and hire lawyers to sue - apparently that works for the other side.

 

Sportsmen need to get serious about this!!!!

[Elkhunter1]

Thank you for your comments ALL of the guys working the fires need to hear and see the support from the public.

This is the most informitive post I've ever read !!! I just wish the D.C. people could read it.THANK ALL YOU GUY'S THAT WERE ON ANY OF THE FIRES INCLUDING THE SUPPORT PEOPLE. You've done and are continuing to do a GREAT job!!!!

[Brian Payne]

Very well said Charlie. Thank you for you and Durand's and everyone elses efforts on this fire.

[jhnutz12]

It is amazing to see all the comments on this chat session compared to all of the other ones that are commenting on the Forest Service, Federal Governement and the firefighters. I agree that this is the most informative reading out of all of them. Being born and raised in Springerville and going on my 19th year of fighting wildland fire for the federal government, I appreciate all of the constructive comments. I will say though after fighting wildland fires on the seige of 2000 in Montana, 2000 Cerro Grande, 2002 Rodeo Chedeski, 2002 Biscuit and this years 2011 Horseshoe 2 fire, to name a few of the large fires, air resources were for the most part ineffective unless being used along with ground resources or on initial attack fires. What is amazing about the CL 415 is that it can haul a lot of water in a short period of time with a water source that is relatively close. But when you are in the southwest there are many limitations when it comes to using air resources; water, terrain and winds to mention a few. In the article that was posted about the CL 415 it was said that there water drops were relatively ineffective in 20+ mph winds. I will say that with all of the equipment, personnel and resources that is available to fight wildland fire there is a place for all of it. For example I am sure that the CL 415 is great in most of Canada and alot of the lighter fuel types in the U.S especially during initial attack. But when you are on the ground with a fire that is spotting one to two miles ahead of itself and has sustained winds that all air resources were grounded, how effective can any air resources be? Oh and I didn't even mention anything about the terrain. But no matter what everyone can try to be an arm chair quarterback. What we should all be talking about is how we can learn, improve and implement our equipment and abilities to fight fire then educate the public on why we do what we do. We will never please everybody with our actions when it come to working for the government but we can improve on how the public sees us as federal employees who are trying to make the right decisions.

[walker02]

nice said charlie its about time someone got through to these idiots!!!

[.270]

i would say about 90% of the rank and file usfs guys that i know are good folks. i've met real orifices, but my opinion of joe forest ranger is quite positive. when you get into the management is where the problems are. same as any big company. everyone builds little empires within the empire. and if you wanna rise above the middle, you hafta buy in to whatever the politics dictate. all big companies are the same way. the upper management decides on what course to take the company and if you want to be more than a grunt, you have to change your stripes to match theirs. you have to learn to like the chosen flavor of koolaid. even if at first you might not really believe in it. but the forest circus has deeeeeeeeeeeeeep problems. anytime you let burrocrats get rooted in, it's a bad thing. the forest circus is just another symptom of a big disease called gov't. and gov't is controlled by money and politics. and money and politics is what decides what happens to "OUR" forests. don't know where a guy would even start when it comes to fixing a 50 headed dragon like this. the guys out fighting the fires right now are just like guys in any big corporation, they hafta go fix the crap that the "smart" guys dream up. then make it work. no matter how poorly concieved or planned it was to start with. i can't really say what i think oughta happen because i'm sure the fbi would visit me tomorrow. but i don't see a viable answer to fix what is wrong here. i see some folks talking here with real experience and conviction. don't agree with all of it, but if i can take the parts i do agree with, i could come up with pretty much how i feel about it. i know one thing, it looks like it's gonna be a long hot summer. and some places that are very dear and intimate to me have either burned, are burning or will burn this summer. and a big reason it's happening is pisspoor management by folks with no accountability. these fires started a long time ago. on a buncha burrocrats desks. or under em. it just flamed up now. Lark.

[jdnuts20]

.270 I agree that there is alot a problems with gov't these days and yes the Forest Service is a government entity so thus the problems with gov't are seen in forest management. However there are many people trying to and doing some great things in the forest these days. This includes myself and I am proud to be associated with the Forest Service (not circus). I consider myself lucky to have my office be located in the woods I grew up in and it was very emotional to watch this fire consume so much of it... and for all those that think it is all black stick, let me tell you first hand there is still alot of green out there. I think people need to realize that the real problem is in D.C. and I know you as well as many other people realize this. My suggestion is, and this may sound corny, write your congressman. Get involved, tell all your friends to take action. It won't change tomorrow but if enough people stand up and shout something may get done.

[Elkhunter1]

Walker02 it is very clear you have a passionate side of you. It bight be better directed towards the decision makers rather than us.. We are very passionate about the outdoors and all it encompasses. We are all entitled to our opinion and you can certainly inject yours, but the name calling will ultimately paint all of us on this site as a bunch of uneducated heathens. Lets not give the anti-hunters any more ammo.

nice said charlie its about time someone got through to these idiots!!!

 

 

270, I believe I stated earlier that we should all get together and write the bearos with our concerns. In this letter we should take some of the front-line fighters ideas as to what needs to be changed with respect to fire fighting in our state.

.270 I agree that there is alot a problems with gov't these days and yes the Forest Service is a government entity so thus the problems with gov't are seen in forest management. However there are many people trying to and doing some great things in the forest these days. This includes myself and I am proud to be associated with the Forest Service (not circus). I consider myself lucky to have my office be located in the woods I grew up in and it was very emotional to watch this fire consume so much of it... and for all those that think it is all black stick, let me tell you first hand there is still alot of green out there. I think people need to realize that the real problem is in D.C. and I know you as well as many other people realize this. My suggestion is, and this may sound corny, write your congressman. Get involved, tell all your friends to take action. It won't change tomorrow but if enough people stand up and shout something may get done.

[deerhunter]

I really find it hard to believe they will shut 27 down. There is to much area left. And a lot of elk in places you wouldn't believe. Come on Nov. 25th. If your wondering.......YES I did get drawn for 27 Bull Elk. Positive thinking on my part!!!!!!!!!!

[ratherbehunting]

It is amazing to see all the comments on this chat session compared to all of the other ones that are commenting on the Forest Service, Federal Governement and the firefighters. I agree that this is the most informative reading out of all of them. Being born and raised in Springerville and going on my 19th year of fighting wildland fire for the federal government, I appreciate all of the constructive comments. I will say though after fighting wildland fires on the seige of 2000 in Montana, 2000 Cerro Grande, 2002 Rodeo Chedeski, 2002 Biscuit and this years 2011 Horseshoe 2 fire, to name a few of the large fires, air resources were for the most part ineffective unless being used along with ground resources or on initial attack fires. What is amazing about the CL 415 is that it can haul a lot of water in a short period of time with a water source that is relatively close. But when you are in the southwest there are many limitations when it comes to using air resources; water, terrain and winds to mention a few. In the article that was posted about the CL 415 it was said that there water drops were relatively ineffective in 20+ mph winds. I will say that with all of the equipment, personnel and resources that is available to fight wildland fire there is a place for all of it. For example I am sure that the CL 415 is great in most of Canada and alot of the lighter fuel types in the U.S especially during initial attack. But when you are on the ground with a fire that is spotting one to two miles ahead of itself and has sustained winds that all air resources were grounded, how effective can any air resources be? Oh and I didn't even mention anything about the terrain. But no matter what everyone can try to be an arm chair quarterback. What we should all be talking about is how we can learn, improve and implement our equipment and abilities to fight fire then educate the public on why we do what we do. We will never please everybody with our actions when it come to working for the government but we can improve on how the public sees us as federal employees who are trying to make the right decisions.

 

Had some wheel time in the 215 a long time ago. No attacks or water fills...just some approaches for a guy who needed to get IFR current. Shortly thereafter I turned down a forestry aviation management job to go commercial which has had its ups and downs, and let me tell you, if you wanna talk about bad managers running airlines, you'll get no arguments from me. I don't own any stock in Bombardier, nor do I have any dog in the fight except like all of this I hate to see this happen to our forests, and I have some perspective that is a little different than the rest out there.

 

Those 215's had radial engines and were pretty responsive. As for the wind, it is always bad here in the afternoon hours, but if you could get enough water to knockdown the fires before the winds get up in the afternoon I think that would be the key. The 415's got updated in the late 90's with turboprop engines and are pretty fast and maneuverable. I think they could easily fill at Roosie or San carlos...and yes that is only about 10-15 minutes flying time at 250 kts as the crow flies and they could dump a lot of water. The article is right about controversy on the approach to firefighting. We seem to prefer a ground based approach but I think that is because it is big money for contractors. The terrain in CA is probably a lot more challenging than here. Sea level to 12000' mountains versus 2000 to 9000' terrain.

 

We always see the ground guys upset with the flyboys and of course then you have the private contractors who have a lot at stake with these contracts and they hate those wet leased airplanes in this country. Saw the same thing with the conair s-2's in BC and WA. Give me a 415 over a PBY or anything else anyday (including a DC10). Give us 10 of them based in the SW Fire Region and get them aggressive early on and I think you will see a difference but that would cost a lot of money and a lot of people willing to change their thinking which we can all tell from some of the posts here probably won't happen. Moving $$$ from PBY contractors and ground based solutions to buy 10 of those turboprops probably won't happen until 500+ homes burn down in Pinetop/Payson and/or FLG...like they did in LA County in the early 1990s.

[cdenton]

It is amazing to see all the comments on this chat session compared to all of the other ones that are commenting on the Forest Service, Federal Governement and the firefighters. I agree that this is the most informative reading out of all of them. Being born and raised in Springerville and going on my 19th year of fighting wildland fire for the federal government, I appreciate all of the constructive comments. I will say though after fighting wildland fires on the seige of 2000 in Montana, 2000 Cerro Grande, 2002 Rodeo Chedeski, 2002 Biscuit and this years 2011 Horseshoe 2 fire, to name a few of the large fires, air resources were for the most part ineffective unless being used along with ground resources or on initial attack fires. What is amazing about the CL 415 is that it can haul a lot of water in a short period of time with a water source that is relatively close. But when you are in the southwest there are many limitations when it comes to using air resources; water, terrain and winds to mention a few. In the article that was posted about the CL 415 it was said that there water drops were relatively ineffective in 20+ mph winds. I will say that with all of the equipment, personnel and resources that is available to fight wildland fire there is a place for all of it. For example I am sure that the CL 415 is great in most of Canada and alot of the lighter fuel types in the U.S especially during initial attack. But when you are on the ground with a fire that is spotting one to two miles ahead of itself and has sustained winds that all air resources were grounded, how effective can any air resources be? Oh and I didn't even mention anything about the terrain. But no matter what everyone can try to be an arm chair quarterback. What we should all be talking about is how we can learn, improve and implement our equipment and abilities to fight fire then educate the public on why we do what we do. We will never please everybody with our actions when it come to working for the government but we can improve on how the public sees us as federal employees who are trying to make the right decisions.

 

Had some wheel time in the 215 a long time ago. No attacks or water fills...just some approaches for a guy who needed to get IFR current. Shortly thereafter I turned down a forestry aviation management job to go commercial which has had its ups and downs, and let me tell you, if you wanna talk about bad managers running airlines, you'll get no arguments from me. I don't own any stock in Bombardier, nor do I have any dog in the fight except like all of this I hate to see this happen to our forests, and I have some perspective that is a little different than the rest out there.

 

Those 215's had radial engines and were pretty responsive. As for the wind, it is always bad here in the afternoon hours, but if you could get enough water to knockdown the fires before the winds get up in the afternoon I think that would be the key. The 415's got updated in the late 90's with turboprop engines and are pretty fast and maneuverable. I think they could easily fill at Roosie or San carlos...and yes that is only about 10-15 minutes flying time at 250 kts as the crow flies and they could dump a lot of water. The article is right about controversy on the approach to firefighting. We seem to prefer a ground based approach but I think that is because it is big money for contractors. The terrain in CA is probably a lot more challenging than here. Sea level to 12000' mountains versus 2000 to 9000' terrain.

 

We always see the ground guys upset with the flyboys and of course then you have the private contractors who have a lot at stake with these contracts and they hate those wet leased airplanes in this country. Saw the same thing with the conair s-2's in BC and WA. Give me a 415 over a PBY or anything else anyday (including a DC10). Give us 10 of them based in the SW Fire Region and get them aggressive early on and I think you will see a difference but that would cost a lot of money and a lot of people willing to change their thinking which we can all tell from some of the posts here probably won't happen. Moving $$$ from PBY contractors and ground based solutions to buy 10 of those turboprops probably won't happen until 500+ homes burn down in Pinetop/Payson and/or FLG...like they did in LA County in the early 1990s.

Enough about these waterbomber planes. You stated that your a commercial pilot and that you havent fought fires. Then you don't know what goes on, on these fires. Nobody is bashing your precious little 215s. They are probably very useful in canada or california where you have a ton of water. We don't have these large bodies of water up here and we had a major wind event when this fire started along with heavy heavy fuels. We are not talking brush and grass. Have you personally flown in and out of bear wallow and the canyons and terrain that this fire was in. The fire was spotting 3 miles ahead of itself. The wind was crazy. Our lookout towers had gusts over 60 miles per hour. Sorry but your analogy if we would have had a bunch of those planes this fire would have been stopped. It would have been pissing into the wind. You say they carry 6 times the amount of a heavy helicopter. So that's at least 6000 gallons. They would never be able to drop very low in the terrain this fire was in. The water would have ended up everywhere. The saying pissing in the wind would have fit real well here. Nobodys arguing that there isn't a place for them. They may do great in the desert near roosevelt where you can attack a fire fast and you don't have major spotting with thick timber and major topograph and you have a quick turnaround.