cmc Report post Posted June 20, 2011 I posted this elsewhere but wanted to get some thoughts of folks here as well. I know there a bunch of folks where with tags up there like me and curious to what's running through your mind.... -------------------- So I'm sitting here wondering what should be done after the smoke clears for the upcoming hunts in 1 & 27? I was running numbers on post Rodeo/Chediski (R/C) fire for 3A/3C and see that the following years hunt numbers stayed the same and in fact the demand for those tags went up. I know they didn't do any type of a refund process and wonder if that was the right thing to do? I know there was a region wide adjustment in tags after the fire but that was in line with the overall elk management direction, not fire related. A few things I'm looking back in time for info that maybe you all can help.... How long did the forest service keep a complete 'no access' into the fire area for the R/C. I know in 2004 they lifted the no camping as my wife had an elk tag in there and we were able to camp in the burn area. Did any of you have a tag on that first early elk hunt in the burn area after the R/C fire and if yes, do you recall what the restrictions were at the time? What was the road access like? I'm not against a refund in tags for hunters holding tags, I for one will keep my 27 tag, but seeing the summer and winter habitat burn in the same fire I'm cautions to support a refund in tags as I feel it might be best to reduce the numbers of animals in the area for this next year as with an over abundance of critters going into what could be a rough forage year could spell for a lot of winter die off. Two concerns are high on my list.... how bad was the burn and what will we see in rains for this summer/early fall? Since I don't own a crystal ball I'm sitting here running post R/C numbers and pondering what should be the course on this fire with tags and future hunts? What's running through your mind? (Oh and I'm still bitter to not be out bear hunting this weekend... I knew I'd be donating a bear tag to the department this year but I was hoping to get some use out of the one that took a few years to draw. ) Thanks, cmc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ultramag Report post Posted June 20, 2011 I think there is a percentage of area that did not burn as hot and servere as some areas "hopefully" most of the wallow fire area, I pray that this fire will show as a positive in a few years, I think the rodeo fire did good things for the wildlife in the area. Its ashamed we can't have some common sense forest management that when fires happen its looked at like a good thing low intensity fire that burns underbrush and the like, not these fire breathing monsters that we have now. As far as the elk hunt, I would pray for lots of rain between now and then. I think that will be the biggest factor on how good or bad the hunt will be. I think the elk will be easy to find this year, they will be more grouped up in the areas that might not have burned as bad. I do know a guy that had a tag in 3A 3C the year after the fire, He had a good hunt and killed a real good bull, followed by a good mule deer buck. the deer herd has come back strong, so he says. he lives in heber. I think you will still have a good hunt. Those honey holes that you like might be gone for a while though. pray for rain. Good luck. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.270 Report post Posted June 20, 2011 that photo says more than all the others i've seen. really puts it in perspective. the major detrimental affect this fire will have is on the calf/fawn survival. right now is a very critical time, every year. elk, deer, pronghorn and turkey are all having babies right now. it will take a large toll on the young. this fire has really let a lot of things come to the surface that need addressed. piss poor management being number 1. the fire teams say that the few places that were thinned did quite well. too bad there were only a few places like that. everything needs to be looked at, starting with the really poor managers with agendas that are different than what the mountain really needs, the way that treehuggers are able to screw things up in court, and the way the gov't just puts up token fights. main thing that needs done is the rules need to be changed to where treehuggers have to pay their own lawyers instead of the gov't repaying them, even if they lose. that rule right there causes more problems than any other. show me a lawyer that ain't gonna take a case that he can't keep from making money on. this fire should open a lot of eyes and hopefully the first few hours and days of ingoring it until it became unstoppable, will be investigated fully and the findings will made public and if there is anyone negligent they will be dealt with severely. it took some dumbasses to start it, but it took some real sorry people to stop the guys from fighting it from the get go. Lark. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ultramag Report post Posted June 20, 2011 Back when the rodeo fire was buring all the talk about forest management came up then also. The tree huggers are so stupid they can't even learn from past fires that this current mindset on forest management just don't work. They just don't get it,, never will. I am with you on the lawyer fees these idiots have nothing to loose when it comes to lawsuits. they are not held accountable. This situation is just like the wolf,spotted owl B/S that we have to deal with.It all ties in togther. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.270 Report post Posted June 20, 2011 the problem is that they do get it. and the gov't won't put up anymore than a token fight. and i think before this is over the spotted owl/wolf bs will have a lot to do with what happened. Lark. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ultramag Report post Posted June 21, 2011 I wonder how many people in general public know about the lawsuit money these enviro groups get from the fed. I didn't know that, I bet lots of people don't know this. It would be good to try and change this arrangement they get from us taxpayers. It makes these groups even more chicken sh!t than they already are. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.270 Report post Posted June 21, 2011 as it is, and i've read it numerous times, (don't know if it applies in all cases) when one of these recognized treehugger groups brings suit over just about anything, any and all legal fees are covered by the feds. the gov't pays the treehugger lawyers to take them to court. even if they lose, the treehugger attornies get paid. after the rodeo chediski fire there were plans by the gov't to salvage the timber that was usable. the treehuggers took them to court, held it up in court for over a year until the wood turned "blue", dropped the suit and walked away and the gov't paid the attorny fees for the treehuggers. all this stuff over endangered species that they lose all the time, the gov't still pays the attornies. read up on it, it's the way it works. talk about a win/win/win/win situation for the lawyers. that in itself looks to me to be the biggets problem with all this stuff. i guarantee you the treehuggers have already filed suits over stuff in the aftermath of the wallow fire. no matter what it is. even if there are no plans to do anything, they will file suit, because their attornies still get paid. Lark. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ultramag Report post Posted June 21, 2011 Thats sickening.....I heard about the plans to harvest the burnt trees and the lawsuit to stop it. makes me sick. the general public don't know anything about any of this stuff I bet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cmc Report post Posted June 21, 2011 So I'm sitting here wondering what should be done after the smoke clears for the upcoming hunts in 1 & 27? So my question is still... if you're left in charge with the post fire issues around access, upcoming hunts and dispersed camping... what would you do? cmc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cmc Report post Posted June 21, 2011 Speaking of camping and going back to that hunt this early fall...Just follow suit with the R/C fire access/camping time line we should see restricted access in the future that will most likely result in no camping in the fire area for a year or more. Proximity to a large area that will allow camping for units 27 and south end of unit 1 is close to nil. Day hunting 27 from Alpine is going to cost some with lots of gas money and hotel fees. From Springerville don't plan on getting much sleep as I've done that several times and the gas bills are nasty. There isn't much in the way of camp spots off the rim south along 191 in 27 that would house the number of hunters bound for that unit for the early archery cow/bull hunts as well later rifle hunts and deer hunts. Where the heck is everyone going to camp? I recall some of the 3C hunters camping north of the 60 in 3A on the state land as it wasn't closed and just drove south a bit to hunt for the day. Not quite the case with state lands around 27 and those areas south of Big Lake.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ultramag Report post Posted June 21, 2011 sorry for the hijack....I think its to ealry to tell for sure what needs to be done. When the moonson comes in the rain will wash out lots of roads and the like who at this point knows what will happen. I pedict the f/s will close down lots of country to camping who knows maybe even access all toghter. I think the forest service should allow the harvest of the burnt trees, They want that, but the greenies wont allow it. Camping is going to be an issue, who knows how this will play out yet.But if it does you could have a gold mine of elk all to yourself because of that.or it could be a nightmare. Not real sure on how to awnser your question though, to early to tell. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cmc Report post Posted June 21, 2011 Not real sure on how to awnser your question though, to early to tell. what kind of data would help? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
biglakejake Report post Posted June 21, 2011 after rodeo they closed all roads except the all-weather major connector roads like 300, 139 and joe tank road. and some of the wet crossings on those were closed also because the FS bulldozed all the culverts out area-wide. they did not ban access outright just closed the smaller loops and oneway trails. woodcutters, hunters and hikers had to do our thing from the designated 'diamond roads' that were left open. camping was banned altogether south of 260 until at least fall 2007. i noted the comment above about camping in 2004-don't know about that. KouryGuideService took bulls out of 3c just after the fire and would know more details. also of note is that the current ASNF and southwest district mgmt are much more 'educated in the liberal arts' than they were in 2002. anything is possible...... lee Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BeardownAZ Report post Posted June 21, 2011 sorry for the hijack....I think its to ealry to tell for sure what needs to be done. When the moonson comes in the rain will wash out lots of roads and the like who at this point knows what will happen. I pedict the f/s will close down lots of country to camping who knows maybe even access all toghter. I think the forest service should allow the harvest of the burnt trees, They want that, but the greenies wont allow it. Camping is going to be an issue, who knows how this will play out yet.But if it does you could have a gold mine of elk all to yourself because of that.or it could be a nightmare. Not real sure on how to awnser your question though, to early to tell. Maybe thats why they(environuts) dont want the timber salvaged?? No camping keeps people out of the forest longer, which they love. Theres no way to know yet what will be open and when, even based on things learned from the Rodeo fire. I am sure these 2 are very similar but very different and the monsoons will probably have a big role to play in that. Pictures show alot more green areas and back burn areas than I thought there would be so that seems to be a little promising. But those IR maps seemed to show the area down in 27 to be pretty bad in a few choice spots. Why is it closed to camping to begin with after these fires and why for so long?? Public safety has to be my guess. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DesertBull Report post Posted June 21, 2011 Why is it closed to camping to begin with after these fires and why for so long?? Public safety has to be my guess. Flash floods, blow down, road damage, etc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
