Sick of the Arrogance

[COOSEFAN]

Man, I've been reading this thread since the beginning and could probably write several pages of a reply! I've got a ton of experience relating to most of the thoughts in this thread and some I agree whole heartedly with and others I don't.

 

I think I remember who Catclaw was referring to at the start of this thread, I think he had that bull in his avatar? I think it was a 400" class bull with extra kickers up top maybe? I remember hearing the story and being very impressed with that individual for taking such a huge bull on his own, but now hearing he covered up the fact he was guided only upsets me for ever being impressed.

 

I'm always way more impressed with a hunter who gives credit where credit is due, regardless if it's a guide, a friend, or even if it was pure luck! The hunter that is honest and humble is the one I respect and admire the most.

 

One thing I don't agree with is folks getting upset or being negative towards somebody else becuase they don't hunt the same way or don't share the same trophy standards! It's THEIR tag, who cares if they want to pass on a 360" bull, who cares if they shoot a spike, it's THEIR tag!

 

I'm happy to see folks pass big stuff and go home empty handed (only as long as it's not my client ) because that's one more bull or buck left in the woods!

 

Also, who cares if there is a bunch of "lazy" hunters or guys that road hunt all day, that only means you'll have less folks hiking into your honey hole!! I wish there were more lazy road hunters!!!

 

I've got a good example for ya'll, Last year, Early rifle bull hunt in one of the best units. I had a client pass up a bull that no doubt was bigger than 390" and most likely was pushing the 400" mark and was a straight 6!!! Keep in mind this was the middle of the hunt, I had nothing bigger picked out, and it wasn't a special tag with unlimited time to hunt, he only had a couple days left! It was very hard for me to comprehend that we were passing this bull up! What you need to understand, and what made me feel better about it was that this hunter knew the risk he was taking. He knew that he would probably go home empty handed and he didn't care. In his mind, shooting that bull would only end his hunt and he then would have to go home!!! This particular hunter already had 2 380" class archery DIY bulls on his wall at home and he was bound and determined to hunt until the last minute of his hunt for a true 400" bull! His words, and they are still etched in my mind, were, "I'd rather hunt the whole hunt for a true 400" bull and go home empty handed than shoot a lesser bull halfway thru"! The thrill of passing up giant bulls, the excitement of having the tag in his pocket and not knowing what was around the next tree were all reasons for him not to kill that bull. He was there for the hunt and beleive it or not, there is a lot of folks out there that hire guides and share the same thoughts as this particular hunter....although i doubt they would've passed that bull! LOL!

 

And another thing is that guy didn't care one bit about what others think. It was his own personal goal to kill a bull scoring at least 400". His drive was fueled only by personal reasons, he never would've wrote a story or posted the pics, even if it was the world record, it was his goals only.

 

Granted, that is only 1 scenario and 1 hunter, but I gotta say, folks like that are more common then most tend to beleive! I don't know if maybe it's the class of clientele that I attract or what, but 97.5% of the clients I've guided in the last 10 years are folks that are respectful, honest and enjoy the hunt, not just the kill. Just because somebody hires a guide doesn't mean they don't have the skills to hunt on thier own and it doesn't mean they are only interested in making a name for themselves. Most clients I guide have actually killed more and bigger elk then myself! It is BS if a guy uses a guide but then covers up that fact later, I don't agree with that at all! But there is no reason to think less of a guy in general just because he used a guide. In those situations I give credit to the guide but also to the hunter for successfully doing his part as well. I do place more respect with those individuals that do it all on their own because I know what goes into it and how hard it can be, but some of those and even some of the guided ones were all luck! Just be honest about it and happy you killed your trophy.

 

Bottome line, to each his own, and it's all just apples and oranges in the end. Killing a bull with a guide is still a great accomplishment, killing one on your own is a better accomplishment. Being honest and humble about it will win you more respect. And most importantly, for me, "The trophy is in the eye of the tag holder". It's not our tag so who cares, only once it is our tag does our opinions of trophy class then become relevant! OK, i'm done for now. JIM>

[Coach]

Jim, GREAT POST. Pretty much nails it.

[billrquimby]

"Bottome line, to each his own, and it's all just apples and oranges in the end. Killing a bull with a guide is still a great accomplishment, killing one on your own is a better accomplishment. Being honest and humble about it will win you more respect. And most importantly, for me, "The trophy is in the eye of the tag holder". It's not our tag so who cares, only once it is our tag does our opinions of trophy class then become relevant!"

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

Bill Quimby

[Hunterdan]

"Bottome line, to each his own, and it's all just apples and oranges in the end. Killing a bull with a guide is still a great accomplishment, killing one on your own is a better accomplishment. Being honest and humble about it will win you more respect. And most importantly, for me, "The trophy is in the eye of the tag holder". It's not our tag so who cares, only once it is our tag does our opinions of trophy class then become relevant!"

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

Bill Quimby

+1

[.270]

i'm still tryin' to figger out what this arguement is all about? Lark.

[CouesWhitetail]

+1 on Jim's post. I don't understand how someone can get upset if someone else sets different goals for their hunt. To me it's all in the challenge and I just love spending time hunting. I don't mind hunting the whole season and passing on animals and going home empty handed. But if my friend wants to do it differently, that's fine too. And I learned a long time ago that there is more meat on a trophy class animal than on a spike, and it's still great meat.

[MattMan]

I learned a long time ago that there is more meat on a trophy class animal than on a spike, and it's still great meat.

 

Wait till you kill a big rutty bull...

[CouesWhitetail]

I learned a long time ago that there is more meat on a trophy class animal than on a spike, and it's still great meat.

 

Wait till you kill a big rutty bull...

 

 

hehehe, heck I have eaten backstrap from a 476 inch rutting elk and it was very tastey!

[308Nut]

I learned a long time ago that there is more meat on a trophy class animal than on a spike, and it's still great meat.

 

Wait till you kill a big rutty bull...

 

I have had the pleasure eating many a big old rutting bulls (elk and moose). Some good and some not so good. The pattern has been if he was cared for very meticulously, he was great eating. If he was skinned and cut up quickly, not so much goodness. While I will agree that proper and carefull field care is vital regardless of the animals state or season, it is even more critical when dealing with rutting undulents. They piss on themselves, roll around in mud that has been pissed in by themselves and other nasty bulls for days and weeks. When you rush the butchering proccess, often times the nasty hide makes contact with the meat, a very dirty and contaminated knife blade (from the hide) makes constant contact with the meat, etc.....When this happens, and it does NOT take much contamination to make a lot of meat taste pretty bad and strong. When dealing with these mature rutting elk and moose etc.....You have to really pay close attention as to keeping the fur side of the hide off the meat AT ALL times and you have to keep your knife clean after cutting contaminated hide. If (more like when) a dirty knife or hide contacts any meat, the area has to be cut away ASAP. You dont have to cut huge chunks off, just a thin layer.

 

 

Take it from a guy who gets to share in the harvesting annually of big old rutting undulents, sometimes my own and sometimes a buddies that if you dont contaminate the inside of the rutting animal with the outside of the rutting animal, the table fare will be 100 times more enjoyable.

 

Rutting bulls and summer velvet bulls can both be great. Rutting ones just are not as forgiving as velvet ones.

[tjhunt2]

308nut.....that is great advise. I've been preaching that for many of years now. Not just for jevelina, which is very credical, but with every animal and bird. Take the time to treat all your game meat the same and you will have the best. I will agree a very young animal is alot tender as with most game birds but it's really hard to tell the difference when properly field dressed and prepared right. Those who normally complain about how tough and strong tasting a particular piece of meat is, not always, usually was caused during the skinning and cooling down proccess. Know before hand exactly what you are going to do with that downed animal and you will be treated to some darn good eating.

 

TJ

[billrquimby]

I learned a long time ago that there is more meat on a trophy class animal than on a spike, and it's still great meat.

 

Wait till you kill a big rutty bull...

 

I have had the pleasure eating many a big old rutting bulls (elk and moose). Some good and some not so good. The pattern has been if he was cared for very meticulously, he was great eating. If he was skinned and cut up quickly, not so much goodness. While I will agree that proper and carefull field care is vital regardless of the animals state or season, it is even more critical when dealing with rutting undulents. They piss on themselves, roll around in mud that has been pissed in by themselves and other nasty bulls for days and weeks. When you rush the butchering proccess, often times the nasty hide makes contact with the meat, a very dirty and contaminated knife blade (from the hide) makes constant contact with the meat, etc.....When this happens, and it does NOT take much contamination to make a lot of meat taste pretty bad and strong. When dealing with these mature rutting elk and moose etc.....You have to really pay close attention as to keeping the fur side of the hide off the meat AT ALL times and you have to keep your knife clean after cutting contaminated hide. If (more like when) a dirty knife or hide contacts any meat, the area has to be cut away ASAP. You dont have to cut huge chunks off, just a thin layer.

 

 

Take it from a guy who gets to share in the harvesting annually of big old rutting undulents, sometimes my own and sometimes a buddies that if you dont contaminate the inside of the rutting animal with the outside of the rutting animal, the table fare will be 100 times more enjoyable.

 

Rutting bulls and summer velvet bulls can both be great. Rutting ones just are not as forgiving as velvet ones.

 

 

308Nut:

 

Good points about cleanliness, but I think you mean ungulate, or hoofed mammal. Undulant fever is a disease humans get from drinking milk that has not been pasteurized.

 

Back in the mid-1990s, I shot a spike bull on Pole Knoll above my cabin and an old, 6x6 bull on the Jicarilla Reservation in New Mexico one week later. I personally gutted, skinned and butchered both animals and treated the meat from both equally carefully.

 

This was after the rut, and I was certain the spike's meat would be tasty and tender, while the big bull's meat would be less so. As it turned out, it was the other way around. Still can't figure why, except the spike had run a half mile uphill to me after being jumped by other hunters. The older bull was not spooked badly, and was sneaking ahead of a guy walking slowly through a patch of junipers.

 

I'd say that shooting an unalarmed animal is the secret to good meat, but the last 6x6 elk I shot was in September 2007, and it and the cow it was following had run at least a mile before it got to me. I missed with my first two shots, so that animal must have been terrified before I killed it with the third and last round in my rifle at twenty yards as it tried to run past me. Its belly was covered with urine and semen, and it smelled awful. I've shot a few elk, but that bull was the best-tasting I've ever killed.

 

Go figure.

 

Can't wait to taste the cow elk I hope to shoot above Eagar in August. I'm hoping the tender, young thing will be standing and not running, and that I can back my truck up to it and get it back to the cabin by 8 a.m. opening day. If it's later in the day, it can get awfully warm in Round Valley in August.

 

Bill Quimby

[308Nut]

 

 

308Nut:

 

Good points about cleanliness, but I think you mean ungulate, or hoofed mammal. Undulant fever is a disease humans get from drinking milk that has not been pasteurized.

 

 

 

Bill,

 

Yes, I meant ungulate! Or 'hoofed' mammals such as deer, elk and moose.....Thanks for the spelling clarification.

[.270]

ungulates all have 4 stomachs and barf up a cud and re-eat it. cows, the deer family, buffalos, goats, sheep, etc. i don't know about the african antelope. horses and pigs are not ungulates. Lark.

[Outdoor Writer]

ungulates all have 4 stomachs and barf up a cud and re-eat it. cows, the deer family, buffalos, goats, sheep, etc. i don't know about the african antelope. horses and pigs are not ungulates. Lark.

 

 

The term "ungulate" has nothing to do with the digestive system but merely indicates the presence of hooves. Thus all of the African antelope, pigs and horses are included. Perhaps you're thinking of the term "ruminant," which describes the critters with a 4-section tummy. All ungulates have hooves but all ungulates are not ruminants.

[tjhunt2]

ungulates all have 4 stomachs and barf up a cud and re-eat it. cows, the deer family, buffalos, goats, sheep, etc. i don't know about the african antelope. horses and pigs are not ungulates. Lark.

 

 

The term "ungulate" has nothing to do with the digestive system but merely indicates the presence of hooves. Thus all of the African antelope, pigs and horses are included. Perhaps you're thinking of the term "ruminant," which describes the critters with a 4-section tummy. All ungulates have hooves but all ungulates are not ruminants.

 

 

TJ