Livestock Grazing

[bchoitz]

This issue is one that evokes very strong emotions in most of us, as you can see by the responses so far in this thread.

 

I've done a little reading on the topic in the last couple of days, and the results I found suprised me a little.

 

First, I am not a proponent of grazing cattle on public lands. I believe that the public lands are for the benefit of the majority of all citizens, and that most people do not want to see cattle in the forest when they go. As a hunter I believe the quaility of my hunt is better when I don't see any cattle or high cattle use areas.

Common sense tells me that the more available biomass that is consumed by cattle the less that is available to wildlife.

 

That being said, I was actually surprised by what I found;

See breif summary of article on "Effects of spring elk grazing on summer cattle forage" near the bottom of this link: http://www.animalrangeextension.montana.ed...02/NutrConf.htm

Also the following article which is fairly representative of the information available on this subject:

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/eoarcunion/Daa...ranWSASAS03.pdf

 

These two are from retired wildlife biologist Steve Gallizioli of Fountain Hills, and are worth reading:

http://www.rangebiome.org/cowfree/gallizio...ildlife1976.htm

http://www.rangebiome.org/cowfree/gallizio...grazing1977.htm

 

The above articles seem to support the idea that some grazing is not catastophic to the rangeland, and that elk will prefer areas that have been previously grazed, but no studies could be found that compared the effects of cattle on undisturbed areas of similar habitat over a long period of time, even conclusions from studies within the Three Bar Wildlife area are not readily available.

The Three Bar Wildlife area has been ungrazed since 1947.

 

For some insight into the ranchers mindset on this issue, read about Kit and Sherry Delaney on the Diamond Bar Ranch:

http://www.rangemagazine.com/features/summ...iamondbar.shtml

or from the opposite point of view:

http://www.wildernesswatch.org/newsletters/march%2004/

 

For some background on this issue, read about "Understanding "Fee Lands" and Vested Water Rights" about midway down the page at:

http://www.propertyrightsresearch.org/2004...e_removal_s.htm

 

Excerpt:

 

When a water right vests, it becomes permanent in ownership and inheritable. The conditions required under the permit, having already been satisfied, no longer apply.

 

A vested water right can be acquired in three basic ways:

 

1. Proof that the water was being put to beneficial use prior to the advent of statutory water law, or

 

2. A determination by a court as in a water adjudication setting forth decreed rights, or

 

3. By issuance of a water certificate issued by the state water engineer after satisfying the requirements set forth in the permit.

 

When a water right vests, it loses its temporary and conditional status, and now becomes permanent and inheritable. When the beneficial use of the lands for livestock grazing, (the usufruct) loses its temporary and conditional status, the beneficial use becomes a fee.

 

Conclusion

 

Under the prior appropriation water doctrine, the states were given lawful (ownership) control of the non-navigable waters within their exterior boundaries and complete control of the disposition of those waters into private ownership. Prior appropriation water law embodies the concept that a person applying for water can claim the use of all land necessary to put the water to beneficial use

 

Catron county (NM) ranchers seem to take this idea that the land is theirs to control and use as they see fit a bit farther than most, but the general belief is still there in many other ranchers who utilize public land. "Because we live and work here, we have more rights than the city boys do when it comes to this land."

 

Some food for thought.

 

Bret

[bchoitz]

It is a unique way of life and I would hate to see it stopped.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good statement Runningbird.

That is really the root of this debate, some people stand to lose a very hard but satisfying way of life if all grazing on public land is stopped.

What we do need to remeber is that we are only talking about ranchers who graze animals on public lands, not those who persue this way of life on private lands.

 

Bret

[Noel Arnold]

Bret,

Good point about the private land. I am a third generation native of Arizona and I have been spoiled to have all of this public land to hunt on. In state's like Texas there is no public land. I think that is why it is so hard for me to see the areas to hunt becoming more limited. The way this state is growing,I fear that in 15 years when I want to retire I will have to move to another state (Maybe Idaho).

Noel

[billrquimby]

Bret,

        Good  point about the private land. I am a third generation native of Arizona and I have been spoiled to have all of this public land to hunt on. In state's like Texas there is no public land. I think that is why it is so hard for me to see the areas to hunt becoming more limited. The way this state is growing,I fear that in 15 years when I want to retire I will have to move to another state (Maybe Idaho).

                                                                                                    Noel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Noel. I also am a third generation Arizonan. (My great grandparents got here just after the Indian Wars.)

 

The point everyone is missing in this thread is that only about 18 percent of our state is privately owned. Everything else is in some form of public or tribal ownership and (with the exception of some reservation and State Land Department land) will never be developed. If ranchlands are being developed, it is because ranchers are selling their own land. They certainly do not keep development at bay on 82% of our state.

 

We will always have land to hunt on as long as public opinion does not turn against us. The problem you'll find in fifteen years already is here: First you have to draw a tag in a lottery, and then you have to get around locked gates.

 

Incidentally, don't be in such a rush to be retired. Not having to go to a job every day is great, but I can say from personal experience that being old really sucks.

 

Bill

[bchoitz]

Incidentally, don't be in such a rush to be retired.  Not having to go to a job every day is great, but I can say from personal experience that being old really sucks.

 

Bill

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Bill,

 

Getting old is the name of the game!

The oldest one wins!

Death to the losers!

 

Ok, maybe not, but getting old does beat the alternative, and when it no longer does, then I hope God is ready for me.

 

Bret

[.270]

Amanda was the only one that caught on to what i was saying. per what the gov't considers overgrazing, you can't overgraze on public land unless you break the law. if i'm a rancher, i'm gonna run every head they'll let me. don't badmouth a group of people because of a perception. especially if it's a perception about something that is probably perfectly legal and acceptable per the grazing rules and laws. just because you think that something is overgrazed, don't make it so. there are lotsa cops that their only job is to monitor cowboys. lots of em. don't lecture me on grazing laws. i'm fairly experienced with it. if a rancher is locking up public land, it's against the law. even the state land that has the "no trespassing, state land" signs on it. read what the sign says in small print. but if they are locking private land that has a road that goes onto public, that's their perogative. i.e. the tapia woman on aravaipa. too bad it happens, but it does. i've never been wealthy or fortunate enough to own private land that led onto public land, so i don't know what i'd do if i was ever in that predicament. i'd like to think that it'd be open to sportsman. but after a windmill gear case or two got shot and after i had to round up a pasture for the 15th time because some jerk left a gate open and i got tired of picking up beer cans and other assorted trash that just happens to pop up after a season, etc., etc., even a caring sportsman like myself might get mad and hang a lock. and don't think that ranchers who run cattle on public land aren't policed. they put up with more than any of us do. because of the perception and high profile, they are always scrutinized a lot closer than you can even imagine. are cattle good for the land. yes and no. depends a lot on your opinion i guess. i personally don't know any "bad" ranchers. and i know a lot of em. and if you think that nothing ever happens to folks that won't obey the rules, read this. it's in the paper today. and it isn't about overgrazing. it's about a guy that doesn't want to obey the rules.

http://www.eacourier.com/articles/2005/12/...news/news02.txt

[patrick15]

just because you think that something is overgrazed, don't make it so.

 

 

Yes it does. Overgrazing is overgrazing and its just not true that they are policed. If ranchers push to graze as much as they can without being punished (like you said) then maybe they shuoldnt be calling themselves "stewards of the land". Thats just a bunch of crap.

 

Even if they were being policed ..they should be...they are using Public land. Its not theirs.

[.270]

ya just don't get it do ya, patrick? i guess if i'm going under the speed limit and you don't like it then i'm really speeding. right? or if i got a building permit, i really didn't get one, if you don't like what i'm building. right? or any other rule or regulation that you don't like? cowboys are ruled and regulated to death. if they don't follow the rules, regulations and laws, then they forfeit their lease. if you don't like cows, fine. but don't go slingin' accusations around that ain't so. anything that a cowboy does on public is regulated. getting on here and accusing a bunch of folks of doing evil things, when they ain't, is sorta irresponsible, in my humble opinion. with guys like you out there, no wonder you're always running into locked gates. it's joint use land. read up on the meaning. if you don't like it then get the laws changed. don't bash folks for working inside o' the system. Lark.