Livestock Grazing

[patrick15]

who are all the bad ranchers?  i was raised on a ranch in Az.  still have a lotta kin and friends that run cattle.  some fairly big spreads too.  first off, if it's private land, it's just that, private.  if a guy wants to overgraze, lock it, or whatever, it's his perogative.  if it's public land, they all have the same rules they have to abide by.  they can't lock it, they can't overgraze it, they can't foul the water.  every person i know who has a ranch has a real connection with the land.  the dirt, the animals, the plants, the water.  i have a cousin who literally works his butt off trying to make something of a ranch that will probably never show a profit.  he owns a real profitable company that makes up the difference.  and everyone who hunts in u27 is better off because of the work he puts in.  and he doesn't have a lock on the place.  there is better water, the roads are better, etc. etc., because he's there.  the difficulty he has with the wolves and other predators isn't even funny.  he deals with the state, blm, forest circus, azgfd, usfw and every tree hugger organization there is, every day.  puts up with all the rules and regs and bs, just because he likes bein' a cowboy.  he hunts whenever he can get a permit.  his cabins are always open to whoever wants to use em.  he could be a prick.  but he ain't.  over where i hunt deer, there are now at least 5 times as many deer as when i was a kid.  all because the guy that owns the ranch has piped water all over heck.  at great expense.  seems like the last time i talked to em about it, it was over 60 miles of pipe and a couple dozen tanks, troughs, etc. they had put it.  wherever there is feed, now there's water.  that ain't always been the case.  i'd guess they've spent at least half a million bucks on the water improvement alone.  this last fall they rounded up every head on the place, just to give it a rest for a couple years.  nobody told em they had to.  the blm and state were fine with the range condition.  they just did it.  i don't know one rancher who locks up anything other than private land.  and most will provide easement to anyone wanting to cross to the public land.  some won't.  and i won't blame em.  if it's private land, that says it all.  i don't necessarilly like it, but it's their right.  when that goofy woman locked up lower aravaipa, i was as vocal as anyone about it.  but it was still apparantly her right.  just because you see more feed someplace, doesn't mean it was or wasn't because of cattle.  stop and look at the benefit that wildlife get from the improvements made for cattle.  some ranchers are not nice folks.  i really disagree with the large landowners trying to get free permits.  but joe cowboy tryin' to make living because that's what he likes is a pretty good feller.  and when all the grazing permits are gone, and mark my words on this one, you'll eventually regret it.  Lark.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I'm not talking about private land...I am talking about public land. If your friend was the rule and not the exception that wildlife would benefit.

Again, other agencies will install and maintain improvements. Have you been in 24A lately? how many scrap heap improvements are littering the ground that dont work. Again, they do leave water on and turned them all off during the drought. 

Public land should be treated better than it is and noone has the right to abuse it at the expense of everyone.

[bowsniper]

Patrick15,

 

I agree with you 1000%! I'm sick of these B.S. myths that "ranchers are stewards of the land", and that they prevent urban sprawl. The reason that they have to build so many water sources is that overgrazing dried up all the riparian areas. Don't believe me, a few years ago AZ G&F issued a report stating that 90% of the state's riparian areas have been lost in the last 125 years due to overgrazing. According to G&F, AZ used to be a lush grassland area before the ranchers got here. Funny how all the wildlife got by for so long before the ranchers started abusing the rangeland. Unfortunately, most of the guys on this forum will label you a treehugger as soon as you say anything against ranching. I've been through this before with them. I hate to say it, but you are wasting your time with this crowd. Sorry to sound so negative, but I'm fed up with public land parasites as well as some of the redneck attitudes on the forum.

 

Alright guys, let them fly, my rant is over. Just remember that a treehugger has killed a bigger buck (112") with an arrow than most of you have even glassed up.

 

bowsniper (aka treehugger)

[patrick15]

Patrick15,

 

I agree with you 1000%!  I'm sick of these B.S. myths that "ranchers are stewards of the land",  and that they prevent urban sprawl.  The reason that they have to build so many water sources is that overgrazing dried up all the riparian areas.  Don't believe me, a few years ago AZ G&F issued a report stating that 90% of the state's riparian areas have been lost in the last 125 years due to overgrazing.  According to G&F, AZ used to be a lush grassland area before the ranchers got here.  Funny how all the wildlife got by for so long before the ranchers started abusing the rangeland.  Unfortunately, most of the guys on this forum will label you a treehugger as soon as you say anything against ranching.  I've been through this before with them.  I hate to say it, but you are wasting your time with this crowd.  Sorry to sound so negative, but  I'm fed up with public land parasites as well as some of the redneck attitudes on the forum.

 

Alright guys, let them fly, my rant is over.  Just remember that a treehugger has killed a bigger buck (112") with an arrow than most of you have even glassed up.

 

bowsniper (aka treehugger)

 

 

Right On Brother!

Dont be so discouraged yet. Maybe somebody will consider what we have to say.

Somewhere sometime somone will pull their head out of the sand.

Real hunters should know the real threats to habitat.

 

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[coueshunter84]

Patrick.

 

 

I lived in Timber Camp back when it was an actual State camp, and I know the rancher who had the lease. That would be Norris of the 5/ . Ya know. I will not hesitate to say he has forgot more about range management then you will ever know ( dont matter how much school you have had) hes well educated and been out there for lots of years. Must be 80 or so by now. He survived a long time up there. I have rode that place, and hunted about everything on it. Used to be lots of game. Then the Forest Service started putting the screws to him. They refuse lots of improvements he had planned. It was an every day thing for him to be fighting with them. Finally they got his lease pulled. Thats the only reason there are no cows in there right now. I havent talked to him in a couple of years. Last I heard he was running horses instead of cattle on what little private he had . Ya know hes probably better off. With being hamstrung by the forest service. He was not able to take care of the land the way he wanted to. ANd if hes still alive I would tell you to go talk to him. He should be at the ranch house ( make the turn to the West at the rest area) Go in with an open mind and I bet you will learn alot about what actually goes on. I think you would be way suprised.

 

 

Good luck,

 

 

Shane

[bchoitz]

I'm in the crowd that believes that grazing on public land is not beneficial to wildlife, and generally not a good use of our public lands.

The Texas hill country is a good example of how overgrazing can destroy the land. This land is virtually all private property, and has been overgrazed for many years. It is now very thick with Prickly pear and many of the springs that once were perennial springs are dried up or flow only intermittently due to the water runnning off instead of slowly soaking in to feed the springs. As this si private land, the owner is of course free to manage it as he sees fit.

 

The topic discussed above is concerning grazing on public lands, and wether this is detrimental to wildlife.

Of course it is. Every mouthful of forage that cow eats is one less mouthful for an elk.

The ranchers do ensure there is water for their cattle to drink, and this does benefit wildlife, but as was pointed out previously, that cow is also destroying the vegetation that would have allowed the water sources deer and elk to remain, and the reduced vegetation increases run-off which keeps the springs dry.

I am sure there are sportsmans' groups such as RMEF that would gladly work on water source improvements if the ranchers were no longer given grazing rights.

I am sure that the negative effects of grazing far outweigh the positive benefits that the ranchers provide.

It is sad that some rnachers would lose their way of life if grazing on public lands was eliminated, but that would be for the greater benefit of the general population.

They may end up going the way of the professional buffalo hunter.

 

Bret

[coueshunter84]

Bowsniper,

 

 

Lets take an educated look at your arguments. Yes its a fact that overgrazing did and does still occasionally happen. No hiding that one. But now with the Savory system that most ranchers use. thats mostly a thing of the past. Everybody rotates their herds. Just makes more sence, and the range benefits.

 

Anyhow back to the overgrazing causing the depleation of the grasslands. What about Smoky The Bear?? Lets take a look at the San Pedro Valley. Way back in the 1800's The San Pedro ran year round, and was a raparian area. Natural grassland. No hiding that one either. No add several hundred years of scrub and mesquite growth, unchecked by fire, to this valley and you can see what happened. Not much water left running.

 

Every year ( documented fact) just about the whole valley would burn. This in turn controlled the mesquites aand most of the other scrub . Amazing how much water those things can suck up. If my memory serves me correctly ( and it my not) somewhere in the neighborhood of 3-6 gallons a day ( mesquite). Now would the ranchers like to see mesquites or grass?

 

And giving this one to you. yes cattle have an affinity for mesquite beans. And thats part of the reason mesquites have proliferated. However, lots of other animals like beans also, like javies, quail, deer, just to name a few. So cattle just helped accelerate the process. Its was going to happen anyway. When man started fighting fires this whole process started. So was it overgrazing or fire prevention?

 

 

Shane

[patrick15]

Patrick.

 

 

I lived in Timber Camp back when it was an actual State camp, and I know the rancher who had the lease.  That would be Norris of the 5/ . Ya know. I will not hesitate to say he has forgot more about range management then you will ever know ( dont matter how much school you have had) hes well educated and been out there for lots of years. Must be 80 or so by now. He survived a long time up there. I have rode that place, and hunted about everything on it. Used to be lots of game. Then the Forest Service  started putting the screws to him. They refuse lots of improvements he had planned. It was an every day thing for him to be fighting with them. Finally they got his lease pulled. Thats the only reason there are no cows in there right now.  I havent talked to him in a couple of years. Last I heard he was running horses instead of cattle on what little private he had .  Ya know hes probably better off. With being hamstrung by the forest service. He was not able to take care of the land the way he wanted to.  ANd if hes still alive I would tell you to go talk to him. He should be at the ranch house ( make the turn to the West at the rest area) Go in with an open mind and I bet you will learn alot about what actually goes on.  I think you would be way suprised.

 

Shane,

Norris had his leased revoked because he would not ask the Forest where and when he thought he should run his Cat. He also did not comply with the terms of his grazing lease. His allotment is one of the worst overgrazed areas I have ever seen. Now it look beautiful thanks to no cattle and lots of rain.

Norris was paid over $75,000 under the State Drought Relief fund (created by a Flake...Grazing political family) because he had pulled cows off during the drought. The only reason his cows were pulled off is that the Forest made him! So he was paid by the Government for being irresponsible. Another case of Govt welfare.

If you dont believe me...ask the Forest.

Patrick

 

 

 

Good luck,

 

 

Shane

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[patrick15]

Bowsniper,

 

 

  Lets take an educated look at your arguments. Yes its a fact that overgrazing did and does still occasionally happen. No hiding that one. But now with the Savory system that most ranchers use. thats mostly a thing of the past. Everybody rotates their herds. Just makes more sence, and the range benefits. 

 

  Anyhow back to the overgrazing causing the depleation of the grasslands. What about Smoky The Bear?? Lets take a look at the San Pedro Valley.  Way back in the 1800's  The San Pedro ran year round, and was a raparian area. Natural grassland.  No hiding that one either. No add several hundred years of scrub and mesquite growth, unchecked by fire, to this valley and you can see what happened. Not much water left running.

 

    Every year ( documented fact) just about the whole valley would burn. This in turn controlled the mesquites aand most of the other scrub .  Amazing how much water those things can suck up. If my memory serves me correctly ( and it my not) somewhere in the neighborhood of 3-6 gallons a day ( mesquite).  Now would the ranchers like to see mesquites or grass?

 

  And giving this one to you. yes cattle have an affinity for mesquite beans. And thats part of the reason mesquites have proliferated. However, lots of other animals like beans also, like javies, quail, deer, just to name a few. So cattle just helped accelerate the process. Its was going to happen anyway. When man started fighting fires this whole process started.  So was it overgrazing or fire prevention? 

 

 

  Shane

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Shane,

Cows eat grass....this grass carried fire. The depletion of grass ..along with fire suppression created the mesquites. Cattle had much more to do with the depletion of the riparian area than mesquites "sucking" all the water. Not to mention the city of Sierra Vista.

 

 

Cows also create disturbance which facilitates the growth of noxious weeds such as Red Brome. Red Brome and Cheat Grass are the cause of damaging Sonoran Desert fires, which isnt adapted to fire.

[patrick15]

Bowsniper,

 

 

?  Lets take an educated look at your arguments. Yes its a fact that overgrazing did and does still occasionally happen. No hiding that one. But now with the Savory system that most ranchers use. thats mostly a thing of the past. Everybody rotates their herds. Just makes more sence, and the range benefits.?

?

? Anyhow back to the overgrazing causing the depleation of the grasslands. What about Smoky The Bear?? Lets take a look at the San Pedro Valley.? Way back in the 1800's? The San Pedro ran year round, and was a raparian area. Natural grassland.? No hiding that one either. No add several hundred years of scrub and mesquite growth, unchecked by fire, to this valley and you can see what happened. Not much water left running.

? 

? ? Every year ( documented fact) just about the whole valley would burn. This in turn controlled the mesquites aand most of the other scrub .? Amazing how much water those things can suck up. If my memory serves me correctly ( and it my not) somewhere in the neighborhood of 3-6 gallons a day ( mesquite).? Now would the ranchers like to see mesquites or grass?

 

?  And giving this one to you. yes cattle have an affinity for mesquite beans. And thats part of the reason mesquites have proliferated. However, lots of other animals like beans also, like javies, quail, deer, just to name a few. So cattle just helped accelerate the process. Its was going to happen anyway. When man started fighting fires this whole process started.? So was it overgrazing or fire prevention??

?

 

? Shane

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Shane,

Cows eat grass....this grass carried fire. The depletion of grass ..along with fire suppression created the mesquites. Cattle had much more to do with the depletion of the riparian area than mesquites "sucking" all the water. Not to mention the city of Sierra Vista.

 

 

Cows also create disturbance which facilitates the growth of noxious weeds such as Red Brome. Red Brome and Cheat Grass are the cause of damaging Sonoran Desert fires, which isnt adapted to fire.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I almost forgot....the Savory system is a good theory if you live in Africa where the land is adapted to short term stampeding by ungulates. Arizona is not. There are some benefits of hoof action on a short term grazing system but the ranchers around Gila County do not spend the time this management system requires for any success. They preach it because it gives them an escuse to pound out the soil with tons of cows but they dont follow all the practices or principals.

This system requires moving cattle in short pastures very quickly and is very labor intensive. Were talking two week periods on average not each year or season like the Tonto.

[Noel Arnold]

I think Ranches do some good for wildlife and some bad. Good examples are = water sources in dry areas,and lion control. Bad examples= Some of them do overgraze and my biggest complaint is blocking off lots of public land. I made a comment in another post that I would like to see the Game and Fish or Forest service put in roads around ranches that block public land.Most ranches in Arizona own some land, which they can do what ever they want With.But when it comes to blocking off our public land, that is a problem for me.

Noel

[bchoitz]

Bowsniper,

 

 

  When man started fighting fires this whole process started.  So was it overgrazing or fire prevention? 

 

 

  Shane

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, both issues affect our public lands, but cattle are not a substitute for natural fires which are also a necessary part of a healthy eco system.

 

This is one arguement where each side is not going to budge, at least where this board is concerned.

 

Bret

[wklman]

"Alright guys, let them fly, my rant is over. Just remember that a treehugger has killed a bigger buck (112") with an arrow than most of you have even glassed up."

 

Also remember you shot and wounded 2 deer in the same spot you shot that buck bowsniper.you shot a spike the day before you got your big one without finding it and then your friend shoots a deer and you can't find it later in the january hunt.now thats a true environmentalist.by taking three deer instead of just one you've done more for herd management than any rancher could of.

[megahunter6969]

In Overall Ranchers have definetley helped, there are SO MANY water tanks, especially up north, that the elk and FEW deer use that would not be there if it were not for the Ranchers!!! THE GAME and FISH would be in even deeper crap then they already are!!! However THERE ARE SOME ranchers that are overgrazing the land and doing some pretty bad things with blocking passage!

[moremuledeer]

Thanks to the hunters for bringing up this topic. Ranching is the bane of wildlife, especially in a dry state like Arizona. Allowing cows to graze in the Sonoran desert is archaic! Ask yourself these two questions the next time someone tells you ranching is necessary for benefiting wildlife. How did we have big game herds in the millions before European man showed up with cattle in North America? Also how did plants evolve so successfully before cattle showed up? Wildlife does not need cattle and plants do not need cattle to graze them to succeed. We do not need ranchers for water. Look at the millions of dollars hunters and the Game and Fish have spent on water developments for wildlife. Also look at the time and money spent on projects to exclude cattle from springs, meadows, and riparian areas because our land managers will not. We do not need ranchers for open space. Private land will eventually be developed unless there are conservation agreements preventing development. I am looking forward to the day without fences, gates, cattle guards, and cow pies at my campsites and in my drinking water at springs. The next time you experience over grazing by cattle take a digital photo and send it to the land management agency and explain to them that your public lands that you hunt are not to be used as a feedlot for cattle. Based on this post I think more and more hunters are not going to put up with overgrazing in our state and become more vocal to our land management agencies and politicians that we want more big game and fewer cattle on our public lands.

[bowsniper]

wklman,

 

You are struggling a little with the topic as well as with some "details" of previous posts. For lack of substantive topic information in defense of your opinion, you have looked up some old posts and reworded them to distract from the real issue. Your time would be better spent researching the real facts of welfare ranching, instead of trying to blow smoke with inaccurate information about old posts.

 

bowsniper