Got a ticket from G&F

[AntlerObsession]

Good experience. I was archery deer hunting in 27, and after spending the day out in the field, I was hiking back to my truck. A G&F officer stopped, said high, and asked to see my license. I rifled through my day pack, for the nth time that day, to find that it had fallen out sometime during my hike. I told him such, and he said we should head into town so he could search the database for my info, to prove if I was lying or not. I was fine with that, so I started packing up my stuff, and remembered I had saved the receipt for my OTC tag. I showed it to him and he let me off. I was grateful to say the least.

[BikerRN]

thats why no more courtesy stops to the g&f for me unless i know the guy. if they want to talk to us they can pull us over. we had a bs ticket on the kaibab years ago. got dropped due to the office not showing up in court. i have also been told by a g%f supervisor that everyone is going to be doing something wrong at some point. they just have to catch you doing it at the time... wrong attitude on their part.

 

And that is how the "game" is played.

 

My problem is when they decide to reinvent the rules of the game, or make up their own game without me knowing the rules.

 

Biker

[Rag Horn]

I have been crossways with the system. Sparing the details of the situation I have decided that my honesty and forthcoming of information about the situation gave them the rope to hang me. Therefore I decided that in the case of another incident I was just going to keep my mouth shut about what I was doing and anything else I was being questioned about, until I had a lawyer with me. The laws are written in such a way that they can find something you are doing wrong and throw the book at you. If they wanted to. Thankfully all do not take this approach. Just like you said the definitions they use are vague enough that it could mean anything. Almost like the horoscope page or the little fortune that comes inside those crappy cookies you get at Chinese restaurants. Just like others have suggested just keep rolling by and wave. Make them prove you were doing something wrong do not offer them any rope.

Sorry about the situation. Wish it were different.

[Non-Typical Solutions]

I have been crossways with the system. Sparing the details of the situation I have decided that my honesty and forthcoming of information about the situation gave them the rope to hang me. Therefore I decided that in the case of another incident I was just going to keep my mouth shut about what I was doing and anything else I was being questioned about, until I had a lawyer with me. The laws are written in such a way that they can find something you are doing wrong and throw the book at you. If they wanted to. Thankfully all do not take this approach. Just like you said the definitions they use are vague enough that it could mean anything. Almost like the horoscope page or the little fortune that comes inside those crappy cookies you get at Chinese restaurants. Just like others have suggested just keep rolling by and wave. Make them prove you were doing something wrong do not offer them any rope.

Sorry about the situation. Wish it were different.

You have got me curious, wanna share details

[fatfootdoc]

When I lived in Flag we had a turd of a Game and Fish officer named Bob Barsh, he cited me and some friends for shooting to close to a house. We were in a field in Doney park shooting Dove and he came out and stepped off the distance, said we were good. He went to check other hunters and we were leaving and the truck was parked further from the homes he stepped off from, well a flight of doves flew over and we shot(all 3 of us) and suddenly here comes the good officer yelling not to move, he came up and said I saw 2 guns fire and he pointed to my buddy "you for sure, and I dont know who the other one was, but you're not leaving until one of you admits to shooting!" I said we are further from the homes now then we were 10 minutes ago!! He says, youre to close, who is the other shooter? So there we sit, finally he writes me a ticket. So I tell him , see you in court jerk, well he shows up and his Deposition is full of lies, he stated he saw me shoot from his truck!! he was on foot over the hill, he stated he taped it in front of us! lies, and he stated we were combative(not until after he ticketed us). Needless to say who did the judge listen to? of course not the the 3 19 year olds. On the other hand, I had no issues with any of the other G and F officers I encountered in the field. Just the Barshhole as he was affectionately known from then on. ag

[Packer]

Like everyone knows there is always two sides to a story. Many people on here know that I am the wildlife manager for the north part of unit 27 and now the rest of you will. I am the officer that wrote Mr. Jones the citation on that day in 2005. Here is my side of the story, and I am sure many of you will still side with Mr. Jones. I was patrolling in my district when I came upon Jason. Like he said he was in his vehicle. I could see right off that he was in camo, had his bow in the passengers seat and had his release on his hand. When I asked him what he was doing he said that he was deer hunting. Like he said the season had closed two days prior. I was looking for people hunting in the closed unit as we regularily have deer killed out of season. What he didn't mention was that this was the third year that Unit 27 had closed before Unit 1. I then thought that maybe he had made a mistake so I asked if he knew what unit he was in. He said he knew he was in unit 27. I then asked if he knew when the season ended, he stated around the 16th. He also said that he was hunting in the area because he had an elk tag that he was scouting for.

 

Now usually when I encounter an individual with a readily accessable weapon, a release on their hand and saying that they are hunting I treat them like they are hunting. Jason was issued a citation for Take during a closed season. Since he said he was hunting and the definition of take includes pursue I felt it was appropriate. Had I felt that he was trying to be in the correct place no citation would have been issued. He stated that he knew he was in Unit 27. I am sorry that the structure had changed three years prior but how long of a grace period are we supposed to give people when things change?

 

In the end I did make him hold his bow. This was an evidentary picture and one to remind me about the case and what he looked like. Maybe most of you have better memories than me but I opt to take pictures as it is easier for me to remember.

 

Anyway, I don't know if this will change anyone's mind about the situation or just make it worse but that is how it was from my perspective.

 

As for the comments about the other cases that have been handled in this court they were before my time and I have no control on how they were handled.

 

Aaron Hartzell

Wildlife Manager Unit 27

[hawkeye]

Joey, I can certainly understand your skepticism. I couldn't believe it either, nor could any of the people I hunt with. All I can tell you that it is absolutely true. The warden who wrote the ticket used to frequent this site, maybe still does. I would invite him to chime in as well. I fully expected that when I gave my statement to the prosecutor, and she verified that it and warden's version of the events matched, she would toss it out complelely.

 

I even printed out the definition of "Take" from the G&F rules, and pointed out that with the broadest interpretation of that definition, which includes the word "persuit" I didn't see how they say that I was actively persuing game, let alone "taking" game. Her response was, (parphrasing) the general rule, is that you are hunting, just by being out there with the intention to hunt. Her reasoning was that if you happened to see an animal you could/would persue it.

 

You could tell she really didn't want to persue the case after knowing the full story, but my sense was she felt obligated to. I might have been able to fight it in court and win, but the stakes would have been a lot higher, i.e. losing hunting rights for 5 years, big fines. And if I couldn't convince her that I wasn't in violation, how could I be sure I could convince a jury?

 

One last thing - I still have the incident report, and the way it is written leaves out key components. Here is an example (this is verbatim except for the officer's name) from the last paragraph:

 

"Officer XXXX observed Jones in the field with his compount bow, arrows and broadheads. Field photographs were taken of Jones holding his archery equipment." What this doesn't say is that I was in my vehicle - driving when he "observed" me, or that after our conversation he asked me to get out of the vehicle and hold my bow so he could take a picture of it, which I did, in an effort to be as compliant as possible. When asked about it by the prosecuter he verified that I was in fact driving at the time, just didn't put that in the report.

[hawkeye]

Sad to say, but it doesn't surprise me at all. I was watching a show last night called Wardens on one of the hunting channels about wardens in Montana. A guy was hunting in the wrong unit and was given a warning when he showed that he had gotten mixed up. I told my son, what do you think would have happened in Arizona. A bunch of Barney Fife jerks who have evolved into a bunch of Hitler acting power hungry maggots. It's all about the money and how much they can steel from us. The AZGFD has nothing to do with game management it is about cushy jobs and the millions they can collect.

[DUG]

I'm just curious why both seasons don't close at the same time to potentially avoid this happening? I'm not familiar with this area but it sounds like you could walk back and forth between the 2 areas. Is there a difference between "take" during a closed season and hunting in a closed unit? Is one worse than the other or are they the same?

[Packer]

I'm just curious why both seasons don't close at the same time to potentially avoid this happening? I'm not familiar with this area but it sounds like you could walk back and forth between the 2 areas. Is there a difference between "take" during a closed season and hunting in a closed unit? Is one worse than the other or are they the same?

 

The reason that Unit 27 closed earlier was to minimize take during the archery season. We felt that was a better option than closing one of the seasons. Since then we have changed it by eliminating the December season and maintaining the same August/September hunt as Unit 1.

 

As for your second question; Take during a closed season is a statute ARS 17-309A11, and take (hunt) in a closed unit is a rule violation (R12-4-302G).

 

Aaron

[azslim]

It is the responsibility of the hunter(s) to know the open/close dates of the units they are hunting, same for unit borders. We cover this in our Hunter Ed classes - so&so said this was unit x and the hunt goes until this day, unfortunately so&so won't get the ticket so it is up to you to check out valid dates & borders.

 

I've heard of people getting tickets for road hunting driving around with their releases on and bow staged next to them for a quick exit.

[CouesWhitetail]

Thanks Aaron for coming here and giving the other side of the story. Now people know a little more about the definition of "take". To most people, I imagine the word "take" doesn't mean pursuit, but now we know better.

 

I know all the WMs have a hard job to do....Thanks for the work you do Aaron and for coming to explain things about this situation a little more.

[OpticNerd]

Thanks Aaron for coming here and giving the other side of the story. Now people know a little more about the definition of "take". To most people, I imagine the word "take" doesn't mean pursuit, but now we know better.

 

I know all the WMs have a hard job to do....Thanks for the work you do Aaron and for coming to explain things about this situation a little more.

 

+1

 

If you were driving with your release on then I'd say the ticket was justified.

[Coach]

Officer Hartzell,

I appereciate you adding your perspective of the situation. I think we're in almost complete agreement about the facts that day. I was in 27 because I had forgotten that the season dates were different from unit 1 - something I have admitted from that day.

 

BTW, I think there is a misunderstanding about the elk scouting - I had mentioned that I was camped on the unit 1 side of Buffalo Crossing because I had been deer hunting and elk scouting there (my elk hunt was in unit 1) - but I don't know how that would affect any part of this discussion - just wanted to clarify that.

 

You stated in your response "Had I felt that he was trying to be in the correct place no citation would have been issued". I think it was really obvious that I had forgotten about the season dates changing, so I guess I don't see a big distinction between unintentionally being in the wrong unit and intentionally being there while honestly thinking it is still open.

 

In either case, I felt then, and still maintain, that we both knew I had blundered, but but also both knew it was unintentional. Since I had been honest from the beginning, clearly stated where I had been, where I was on my way to hunt, and that I honestly thought the area was still open and hadn't actually gotten out of the car to "persue" deer, that the "Take" violation was excessive. I also felt upset that the report that was filed on the incident was carefully worded to sound as absolutely bad as possible, leaving out many key the elements that painted the "whole picture".

 

One point I want to make about this whole situation it is this:

I truly respect our G&F officers and appreciate the difficult job they do. More importantly, it is critical for hunters and G&F to have a postive, trusting relationship. We need to feel like we're on the "same team". This requires that sometimes we as hunters need to cut a little slack to the officers and to G&F as a whole. And while I despise poachers and intentional breaking of game laws, I think a little descression can go a long way toward preserving and maintaining that trust-based relationship, which benefits us all.

[savagman]

Officer Hartzell,

 

I am concerned about the story regarding packing out meat and am unsure if I have been 100% law abiding. I was fortunate to get drawn for elk last season and shot a nice bull at about 9am. I placed my tag on the antlers, sent a quick text to my wife telling her to bring the frame packs and help, took some pictures and got down to the business at hand. I quartered and trimmed all the meat and hung it in the shade to cool. I then hiked out to the road to meet my wife and kids and guide them as close as we could get. We packed all the meat out with the head and tag left for last. I had my license and the transport part of the tag in my pocket. Did I do anything wrong? If I had been stopped with the meat and no tag or proof of sex would I be in hot water?

 

We finally pulled out after dark and headed for Millers at Clints Well. Unfortunately they had closed by the time we got there. We headed to my moms house in Pine. My wife had to head back the to get the kids back to school. So I sent her with the head and tag to take it to the taxidermist. I had the meat hanging in the shed with the transport tag on a hindquarter. I loaded it up the next morning and took it back up to Clints Well with the intention of getting it processed. The guy from Millers wouldn't take it as I didn't have a tag or proof of sex. I showed him the transport tag but he said that it was useless as it didn't have the tag # on it. He also said transporting the meat without proof of sex was illegal. I understand his position but how is one to handle this scenario? At what point do I no longer need proof of sex? The taxidermist wants to see the tag and I assume G&F wants it on the rack. I have never had a problem dropping a carcass or quarters off to processors in Phx - is the sensitivity due to being so close to the hunt?

 

One tag for meat and rack has caused me this quandry before. Javelina head with no tag and taxidermist is not happy. Meat with tag and processor is happy.

 

So a couple more questions. What is the right way to do it and if you and I had met up last fall would I be more educated or have a ticket? Has G&F considered a meat tag and trophy tag - both with tag numbers?

 

Any guidance or suggestions that you have is greatly appreciated.