fantail whitetail or all coues

[Guest super jumbo]

Over the last decade i have heard the word fantail used for a seperate subspecies of coues deer. People sometimes call a small bodied buck with large antlers a "fantail". I have also heard people call a coues deer with a small body and an anormally large tail a fantail. I dont believe there is a subspecies called a fantail, and that these descriptions are just normal genetic aborations that all species exhibit. I have also heard the term fantail used more often with mexican deer or deer from down south near the border. Is there a documented fantail coues deer or is this a term used to describe strange coues deer that people see that doesnt fit the "normal" mold of a coues deer? Help me out on this one fellas cause i dont believe it.

[youngbuck]

Over the last decade i have heard the word fantail used for a seperate subspecies of coues deer. People sometimes call a small bodied buck with large antlers a "fantail". I have also heard people call a coues deer with a small body and an anormally large tail a fantail. I dont believe there is a subspecies called a fantail, and that these descriptions are just normal genetic aborations that all species exhibit. I have also heard the term fantail used more often with mexican deer or deer from down south near the border. Is there a documented fantail coues deer or is this a term used to describe strange coues deer that people see that doesnt fit the "normal" mold of a coues deer? Help me out on this one fellas cause i dont believe it.

 

Some good info in this thread:

http://forums.coueswhitetail.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11298&st=0&p=126425&hl=fantail&fromsearch=1entry126425

[billrquimby]

Once again, there is no such thing as a subspecies of a subspecies. The Coues white-tailed deer is one of about 40 subspecies of Odocoileus virginianus, the Virginia whitetail, that occur naturally from Canada to Venezuela.

 

I repeat, the Coues deer is NOT a separate species. It is one of the many subspecies of the whitetail, a species found on both continents of the New World.

 

Also, if there were a still-to-be identified "fantail" subspecies (and I doubt that there is), it could not exist for long among the larger numbers of the Coues subspecies because interbreeding would soon erase whatever differences the so-called fantail might possess.

 

To me, this says that the mature, miniature whitetails that are seen from time to time in Arizona and elsewhere in the range of the Coues deer can only be dwarfs, which are as rare as albinos or melanistic individuals.

 

Bill Quimby

[silencedmajority]

I've heard "fantail" to describe the common name of a smaller subspecies of whitetail deer in Florida, possibly one that was once found on the florida keys.

 

Also, I think the further south you go from here, the smaller the whitetail subspecies get.

 

In the past many of our wildlife species were split in many different subspecies and species based on things like color and size. I read somewhere that at one point, naturalists listed Arizona as having upwards of 10+ "species" of bear.

[billrquimby]

I've heard "fantail" to describe the common name of a smaller subspecies of whitetail deer in Florida, possibly one that was once found on the florida keys. Also, I think the further south you go from here, the smaller the whitetail subspecies get. In the past many of our wildlife species were split in many different subspecies and species based on things like color and size. I read somewhere that at one point, naturalists listed Arizona as having upwards of 10+ "species" of bear.

 

You are correct that there is a trend among scientists to reduce the number of subspecies, especially when the differences are based on outward appearances. Haven't heard of Florida deer being called fantails, but I wouldn't be surprised. Florida has several subspecies of whitetails and there is a great difference in their average body size.

 

"Naturalists" in the late 1800s and early 1900s raced all over the place, trying to be the first to identify "new species." Some of them were outright frauds and some were downright ignorant. Arizona had two species of bears in those days -- the grizzly and the black -- but there were people who wanted a new species declared for every color and size bear they encountered.

 

Interesting (to me, at least) was the fact that the Boone & Crockett Club got caught up in all this. Because our Coues deer's range in the USA was widely separated from other whitetails, it believed that our deer were not the same species as the whitetails found everywhere else. That's why that club historically has had two categories of records for whitetails all these years. It lumped all the other subspecies into one category and listed our deer separately.

 

In the beginning, SCI did this in its record books, too. Then, at Craig Boddington's suggestion when he was its North American committee chairman, SCI added additional whitetail categories based loosely on the range of the various subspecies but mostly on geographical differences in average antler size. This method makes more sense to me.

 

Bill Quimby

[COOSEFAN]

This is a subject that i've got some experience with. After the research I've done I came to the conclusion it's just a form of dwarfism. Dwarfism is very rare but it occurs and there are many different causes of it. As far as I know, nobody knows exactly what causes it in nature but it's probably similar reasons why it occurs in humans.

 

 

My experience happened last year. The crazy part was that the ranch owner told me earlier that "Little" deer live in the high country on his ranch! I ignored the comment but later wished I had paid attention to him!

 

I shot a buck that appeared to have a huge frame when comparing it to his body size. I had to judge him thru my rifle scope at long range and felt confident that he was a huge framed buck in the very least and worthy of shooting.

 

It was the next morning when I was finally able to hike up to my buck (which was on the top of the mountain, in the "high" country!) and the ranch owner was with me. I'll never forget hearing him laugh out loud as I easily picked up the un-gutted buck with 1 hand!! He reminded me that he had forewarned me of the "Little" deer up high, and he was right! I've killed Javalina that were heavier than this buck! His body was very tiny yet this buck was an older buck with well worn teeth. In the pics I was sitting back a little bit but if you notice how big my hand is it'll give you some perspective. I doubt this buck was heavier than 50lbs, on the hoof!!!

 

 

 

 

We've killed several other deer from this same area, none were from the higher country but all the others were normal sized deer. I'm still very curious how that rancher knew there were "Little" deer up there, must've been more than this one! JIM>

[billrquimby]

Coosefan: Your buck has a great set of antlers for its size. Those on the "fantail" I shot in the Sierritas were about the size of my hands. I remember packing that little deer off the mountain by folding its four legs together and carrying it like a suitcase. As small as it is, your deer seems larger than I remember mine being.

 

Incidentally, if it were me, I'd be doing all my hunting higher up on that ranch. One "fantail" is worth a dozen regular Coues deer in my mind.

 

Bill Quimby

[Benbrown]

You can create as many varieties of any one species or subspecies as you like based on minor variations in pelage, skull size and body measurements, antler conformation, etc. This is what taxonomists did in the late 19th and early 20th century to publish or perish. In reality, the "fantail" is simply a young animal that happens to have a rust-colored wash on the dorsal side of the tail. They "occur" from southwestern Arizona to the Chisos Mountains in the Big Bend of Texas and the Sierra del Carmen ranges in northern Mexico. They are not a subspecies nor are they a particular genetic variant. They are what biologists term a "color phase"--a normal variant within the normal range of variation of an ecotype (which is another way to delineate what used to be called subspecies). If you prefer to regard them as unique and you need one to check off your personal "life list" of critters that have fallen to your exploits, I offer my sincere congratulations. It's just one more way of keeping score, but for what purpose?

[swede]

Cooesfan, did you have that deer mounted? Looks like it would make a great full body mount! Cool looking buck!

[billrquimby]

You can create as many varieties of any one species or subspecies as you like based on minor variations in pelage, skull size and body measurements, antler conformation, etc. This is what taxonomists did in the late 19th and early 20th century to publish or perish. In reality, the "fantail" is simply a young animal that happens to have a rust-colored wash on the dorsal side of the tail. They "occur" from southwestern Arizona to the Chisos Mountains in the Big Bend of Texas and the Sierra del Carmen ranges in northern Mexico. They are not a subspecies nor are they a particular genetic variant. They are what biologists term a "color phase"--a normal variant within the normal range of variation of an ecotype (which is another way to delineate what used to be called subspecies). If you prefer to regard them as unique and you need one to check off your personal "life list" of critters that have fallen to your exploits, I offer my sincere congratulations. It's just one more way of keeping score, but for what purpose?

 

There are several problems with your observations, Mr. BenBrown.

 

1, The so-called fantails that Cooesfan, I and others have killed were NOT immature animals, but they definitely were noticeably smaller -- about half the size of most Coues whitetails of the same age. The teeth on my little buck were inspected by University of Arizona wildlife management students at a game department check station on the off ramp at St. Mary's Road and the Interstate in Tucson in about 1975 or so, and (as I remember it) I was told that my deer was 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 years old.

 

2. There has been no mention of color phases, although the cape on the mount of my little buck is a much lighter gray than the coat of the buck in Coosefan's photos. Most of us realize that there is a wide variation in the color of whitetails in Arizona, even during the same seasons in the same mountain ranges.

 

3, That rust-covered wash on the dorsal side of the tails of some Coues deer is also found on mature individuals of several "ecotypes." A 200-pound western whitetail I shot in central Wyoming, for example, also had it, as did about half of the Coues deer I've killed.

 

4. The Chisos Mountains and the Sierra del Carmens are what most taxonomists who do recognize the existence of subspecies consider to be the range of the Carmen Mountain whitetail. Texas and that region of northern Mexico have never been listed as having Coues whitetail in any reference I have seen.

 

5. No matter how much we might like to do it, we cannot create a subspecies. They are created over eons when members of a species are isolated from others of their kind.

 

6. It is my uneducated opinion -- based soley on my ignorance of what else these miniature Coues deer might be -- that Arizona's so-called fantails are indeed rare genetic variants: dwarfs.

 

Your entire response and your use of "ecotype," a recent synonym for "subspecies," indicate you are a lumper (and not a splitter) and do not recognize that there are taxonomic differences between a 350- to 400-pound northern whitetail from Michigan or Pennyslvania and Oregon's and Washington's Columbia whitetails that are about one-fourth that size.

 

That's fine if that is what keeps the propellor on your little green beanie going around and around, but please allow the rest of us to have our fun. It has nothing to do with checking boxes on lists of animals that died because of our egos, at least not in my case.

 

This entire website is based on our belief that the unique ecotype/subspecies we call the Coues white-tailed deer actually does exist and deserves to be celebrated.

 

Bill Quimby

[COOSEFAN]

You can create as many varieties of any one species or subspecies as you like based on minor variations in pelage, skull size and body measurements, antler conformation, etc. This is what taxonomists did in the late 19th and early 20th century to publish or perish. In reality, the "fantail" is simply a young animal that happens to have a rust-colored wash on the dorsal side of the tail. They "occur" from southwestern Arizona to the Chisos Mountains in the Big Bend of Texas and the Sierra del Carmen ranges in northern Mexico. They are not a subspecies nor are they a particular genetic variant. They are what biologists term a "color phase"--a normal variant within the normal range of variation of an ecotype (which is another way to delineate what used to be called subspecies). If you prefer to regard them as unique and you need one to check off your personal "life list" of critters that have fallen to your exploits, I offer my sincere congratulations. It's just one more way of keeping score, but for what purpose?

 

Did I miss something in this thread that Benbrown's post pertains to or directed at???

 

I usually have my hands on 10 to 20 dead coues bucks every year. I'm not very educated, and I'm in no way a "Deer Expert", but I guarantee something was genetically wrong with that deer I killed. I'm also not saying he was a "fantail" at all. I'd never seen it before and haven't seen it since, but that buck was a dwarf. I didn't have him aged but the teeth were well worn and he was without a doubt an older buck.

 

I know Coues in general have many variations in size, shape and color and I'm sure it all has something to do with genetics and where they live, but the buck I killed was abnormal. As for the personal "life list" of critters that have fallen to my exploits....I'm not sure why that was even said, but the truth is, this critter was more of an expensive mistake rather than an accomplishment. The single 756 yard shot was pretty cool though

 

I don't have this buck mounted yet, there was a short period of time last year when the dudes at the border had just learned of the new law change for importation and didn't know what to do yet so they were just taking everyone's capes and unfortunately mine was one of them!

[azslim]

I have to agree with Mr. Quimby here, I would be making a serious run at them little dwarf deer. That is a great buck and was a lot easier to pack to the truck, and if the truck was too far you could sit down, light a fire and eat him up. I tend to lean towards non-typical game when given the chance.

[Shawn]

What did that buck score if you dont mind me asking cooesfan?

[Rembrant]

Good thread and good insights in it.

Whitetailed deer are whitetailed deer; one species. A Coues deer can breed with an Iowa whitetail, and the result will be a whitetailed deer. Subspecies are a recognition of taxonomical differences brought out of the vast genetic diversity of any particular species by the various invironmental niches they live in. (pretty much what Bill said). I think of "subspecies" as being the same as "race". An indiginous African is black, an indiginous Norwiegan is white; the resulting offspring is a human being. The genetic diversity placed in us and other creatures by our Maker, to ensure our survival by the ability to adapt to various invironments is really quite incredible, and not to be confused with macro evolution. Animals don't change into other animals. That notion is erroneous.

Couesfan is barking up the right tree with dwarfism. In human genitics we sometimes get a midget, and we sometimes get a Shaq O'Neil.

Way cool deer Couesfan!

[Guest Lobo]

Midget coues!!