You Decide...

[CouesWhitetail]

Hunter X,

 

I don't think you failed in making your point. It was a perfect video for showing the reactions of the animals at different distances. It seems to me that you are just pointing out the obvious....animals are more afraid of close noises than far away ones. It's certainly true, but did you really expect that people here didn't know that already? It seems like you feel like people are missing your point, but I don't think they are. They just seem to mostly disagree with your idea that longrange shooting is unfair because the animal might not run after your first shot. Personally I appreciate the discussion you started and think it's an interesting video.

[youngbuck]

I think your point was made. Deer seem to spook less the farther the shot, IMO. I didn't agree that far shots aren't fair. I agree with 308 about guys getting defensive when they hear people hating on long range hunting who don't understand it like the guys practicing it( there have been many topics on this here). I do completely understand murphy's law. Stuff happens. I've missed plenty of deer growin up. I got to spend a lot of time in the "hot seat". It taught me a lot about shooting under pressure.

[desertdog]

I think your point was made. Deer seem to spook less the farther the shot, IMO. I didn't agree that far shots aren't fair. I agree with 308 about guys getting defensive when they hear people hating on long range hunting who don't understand it like the guys practicing it( there have been many topics on this here). I do completely understand murphy's law. Stuff happens. I've missed plenty of deer growin up. I got to spend a lot of time in the "hot seat". It taught me a lot about shooting under pressure.

 

In all due respect youngbuck I don't think that's the point Hunter X is trying to make. If I have read it right (and in full disclosure I have not read all of this thread) what Hunter X is trying to say is he does not think shots past 500 yards is "sporting" or "good ethics" because at that distance the animals chances of detecting the hunter are slim to none.

 

If that is the point you are trying to make Hunter X (and I will say again I have not read the entire thread) that is misguided and folly. In my experience Coues deer can and will detect movement and can hear the human voice in distances past 500 yards. Is it harder for them sure. But can they absolutely.

 

I will try to keep my next point as clean and as civil as possible. If that is your opinion fine. I will not try to change your mind of it. But please don't try to change mine or say that I am less of a hunter or a sportsman because my viewpoint differs from yours. You have your opinion and I have mine. And I think we both know the saying about opinions.

 

 

I have two questions for you Hunter X. One is, is that the point you were trying to get at? And two do you have any ill feelings of hunters that take shots past 500 yards BECAUSE you feel that it is not responsible for people to shoot that far. Not because the chances of game detecting you are slim but BECAUSE 500 yards and past is too far for people to be responsibly shooting? If that makes sense.

[Coach]

I'm kind of with 308 on this, but as I said earlier on this thread, I did find the videos interesting and in some ways enlightening. I don't think you necessarily posted this topic with the idea of starting any kind of fight. To be honest, it's very similar to another recent post along the same lines by a very respected member of the coues hunting community, particularly this site. Only you were able to show actual footage of hunters attempting shots that they clearly weren't capable of in a real-life hunting situation.

 

While you have some very valid points, and you do bring up a subject that we should all think about WRT our comfortable range, shooting under pressure vs. on a bench at the range, you can't expect to start a topic like this without ruffling a few feathers.

 

Personally, I don't agree with some of the comments that were aimed directly at you - the shooters in all of those situation clearly weren't you, and you were pointing out, not so much what they did wrong, but the idea that the further the shot, the less likely the deer was to bolt after the first miss. That's a valid topic, IMO. But you have to be ready for some staunch criticism, which is fine if you have thick enough skin.

 

We've all had our own mishaps in the field, and more than likely tried to help a buddy out who seemed to be able to shoot well at the range but sprayed bullets all over the hillside in an actual hunt. It happens, and we should be able to talk about that.

 

Overall, I think the videos you provided were valuable, and important for people to see. Not everyone can make those long shots even in perfect conditions.

 

Where I think you might have drawn fire is in some of the wording, regarding "is it fair to shoot xxx yards?".

 

It's as fair for an accomplished rifleman to shoot a deer from 900 yards, when he knows how the animal is moving and where his or her bullet will hit as it is for the average joe or jane to shoot a deer at 15 yards with a bow, knowing how the animal is moving and where the arrow will hit. Some people spend a lot of time, effort and money to become proficient at ranges that others could not dream of. You can't put a cap on what the ethical shot distance is across-the-board for all hunters, because I guarantee you, there are some people who can shoot better at 600 yards, even 800 yards and beyond, than the average hunter can shoot at 300 yards. I've been shooting and reloading for a very long time, and my own personal "comfort zone" is less than 500 yards with most of my rifles. That's not to say that someone else who practices hard and aquires the skills of long range hunting isn't just as comfortable at 750 yards as I am at half that distance.

 

 

"Fair" in this case, the way I take it, is whether the shot is ethical. And that means being confident in your equipment and abilities to make a clean, humane kill. You know when you pull the trigger or release an arrow if you are confident in the shot, or just hoping to connect out of luck.

 

 

Bottom line, I appreciate your willingness to enter the spotlight, and take a lot of grief in the process, to illustrate how often some people over-estimate their abilities, and the impact that can have - again, assuming that was your intention.

 

I'd bet anyone here has seen similar situations to the vids you posted, and it should be important for us to think about the idea of knowing what our comfortable, ethical range is, whether it's rifle, bow or muzzle loader. We have an obligation to know our own limitations and stick to those, even when it's tempting to "push the limit".

[tjhunt2]

We've been down this road before and my take is we will be down it again. Opinions are defined by what we think is right. That's one's opinion. As hunters and fellow sportsmen I feel we should listen to each other's opinions and respect them but also they should respect each of our opinions as well whether or not they agree. It's hard for someone to know the ability of one's capability to harverst game at different distances just by reading this forum. I will admit a year ago I was not on the band wagon of the long shooters. This site has opened my eyes to a whole new other world and I have taken a different approach on the subject.

 

Here is my final thought, it's alright to diagree and express your opinion but you shouldn't criticize one's ability to harvest game, no matter what the distance may be, unless you know the hunter's capability personally.

 

I think I know but I'm not quite certain what exactly your point is. A very interesting video to say the least. I agree to disagree and we must, as hunters, stick together.

 

TJ

[Snapshot]

I remember in my youth, I used to throw alot of "hail mary" Shots, and missed alot of animals. I was never taught things like trajectory,bullet drop,point of impact at steep angles etc. I learned these things on my own as I got older, and I got to the point where I would not shoot, if I was uncertain about the shot.My skills, and kills, increased significantly.

 

The ethics issue aside, if you want to make long range shots, then you need to practice long range shooting.Fully understand the trajectory and bullet drop of your particular caliber at any given range.

 

When I put a muzzle brake on my rifle I noticed that that the deer down range where not as "spooked" by the shot as they would be otherwise. A rifle without a muzzle brake is much louder down range. Close up shots? I think the animal would certainly be more effected by the noise, as anything would.

[DesertBull]

Who gets to decide the definition of long range?

 

50 yards is long range to me...when I have a bow in my hand, yet I know a lot of guys that can shoot better at 50 than I can at 20.

[wardsoutfitters]

First of all the hunters missing those shots have no business taking those types of shots. Here is a pig my 10 year old boy shot this morning, he is the kid on the right side of the picture. His name is Gabe , over the past three years he has harvested three coues bucks one at 370ish, one at 380 and another at 480. He wacked this pig this morning at 653 yards one shot one kill. With that said he fires more rounds in a month than most adults do in a year. He hunted the first day with his bow and we got 30 yards to some pigs , but that is 10 yards to far for him, Because I have only two days to hunt with him before clients arrive he decided he wanted to hunt with the ultra but wasn't going to shoot a pig at less than 500 yards. What it boils down to is the time behind the weapon.

[Coach]

Holy cow, that's a serious rifle that young man is holding. Looks like a well-done custom job. And to be proficient with it between 350 - 500 yards, and past that, is amazing, given his age. Just goes to show, with enough practice and the right equipment, long shots can be ethical and rewarding. Congrats to Gabe. He has obviously earned some great trophies.

[308Nut]

Congrats Wards. Nicely done. And a hats off to you for getting him out there and shooting enough for confidence and proffiency. We cannot always control our hunting senarios but we sure can control how ready we are to capitalize on a good opprotunity.

[tjhunt2]

You have got to be kidding me. 10yrs old and shooting them distances? Can I hire Gabe for some instructions on long range shooting? I'm old school and would have to see it to believe it. That to me is just amazing. You have definitely done some servious shooting on the range. Congratulations to Gabe on his pig.

 

TJ

[Coach]

Appreciate it 308, but maybe a case of a mis-read post. Not me or my boys. Gabe and Ward's did it up right, and they deserve to be recognized. Passing the praise along to the ones that did it.

[roninflag]

hunterX- the video is removed. i would have liked to see it. i have repeatedly invited the hunters/shooters here to shoot in the f-class matches at rio salado (500 yards) and (600) and PRGC(500). there may be some matches in tucson also. it is a "great" way to see what you/rifle are capable of. wards obviously has been doing some serious shooting down near wilcox. wards that is a great pic. great shooting and skill by gabe. i must be old because while i have rifles that look like gabes i think the one on the left is prettier. not having seen the vid what can i say ? the more you shoot the better you will understand your limits , doesn't matter if i is a bow, musket, handgun, rifle. i shoot a lot , 500 yard shot on a target the size of a coues is challenging/ tough. shoot a ten shot group at 500 with your coues rifle and see what it looks like . very educational. roninflag

[308Nut]

Appreciate it 308, but maybe a case of a mis-read post. Not me or my boys. Gabe and Ward's did it up right, and they deserve to be recognized. Passing the praise along to the ones that did it.

 

Ooooooppppsssss!!!!!

 

You're absolutely right! I meant Wards!

[wardsoutfitters]

Thanks guys.

Gabe has been shooting high powered rifles since he was six, I bought him a super shadow 243 wssm and had a muzzle break put on it. If any of you are interested in coming down to shoot long distances let me know We can go to the dry lake just outside of Willcox and shoot as far as you want. I think it would be cool to get a Coues whitetail shoot together.