You Decide...

[308Nut]

To me, 'fair chase' means hunting within the limits of the law. In Arizona there is a 30 minute before and after sun rise and sun set rule. To shoot game before or after legal shooting light is NOT fair chase. In Alaska there is no such absurd rule. We can hunt 24 hours a day 7 days a week as long as we use natural light. That said, if I shoot an animal 3 hours after sun set because I use a high quality scope that lets in a good amount of light during a full moon where I can see the animal well enough to make a clean kill, that IS fair chase. I have never shot at anything 3 hours after sun set but I have nearly 2 hours after sun set. To me, because it was legal IS fair chase.

 

Shoot 2 yards, 200 yards, 2000 yards what ever, if there are no laws against it, then it IS fair chase. Not to be confused with responsible.

 

In Idaho there is a weight limit on hunting rifles. This is to prevent hunters from sitting on mountain tops with 50BMG's and ultra long range rifles taking shots at 2000 and 3000 yards. There is no law however that says a hunter cannot shoot 2000 or 3000 yards with a 12# rifle. Keep it under 16# and itis fair chase.

[coues hunter]

To me a major part of hunting is penetrating the security of the animals senses. A few of the proudest moments in my life have been acomplishing that difficult feat and taking an animal.

Everyone has the right to hunt as they disgress within law. I just don't understand why anyone would want to cut their experience short of its full potencial.

[joeeden]

All I know is that if I had that footage, the last thing I would ever do was admit it.

[308Nut]

To me a major part of hunting is penetrating the security of the animals senses. A few of the proudest moments in my life have been acomplishing that difficult feat and taking an animal.

Everyone has the right to hunt as they disgress within law. I just don't understand why anyone would want to cut their experience short of its full potencial.

 

There in lies the problem. My idea of full potential is different from yours and from many other hunters and vice versa.

 

As long as you keep it within the law and I as well, it isnt about you or I for that matter understanding why one hunter wishes to do it his way.

 

We all know you prefer to get close. We all know that I like to be far. You dont need to understand why I like to do it the way I do, but you do have to accept it since I do what I do with in the boundaries of the law as well as I have to accept the fact that you do what you do because you do it within the boundaries of the law.

 

Not everybody will want to do it your way even if you dont understand it.

[Chef]

Good post 308.

[fatfootdoc]

All that video shows me is that you were taping with alot of people who didnt know their limitations or how to wait for the best body position for a shot. You should spend more time filming the shooters at the range and catching their flinching etc on video so they can fix it and then videotape them practicing at the ranges they are shooting at. Then when we see them shoot at 600 yards at an animal, we know they have practiced!! Instead of taking a hail mary shot!! So that video changes nothing about how I feel about long range shooting, if you practice and are competent take the shot, if you are just out flinging lead....stay home. ag

[Hunter X]

There are a select few guys on here who would say that deer act the same being shot at from 100-1000 yards. They drop in their tracks. I haven't spent a lot of time past 750, so I'm not one of them. Fair chase is a concept defined by some organazations to set a standard to allow animals into their books. Other organizations define it to what they believe is right or wrong. People who choose for themselves what is right wrong are just people who know the difference. I'm drawing the conclusion that you dont think it is fair to the animal at longer ranges because they don't spook as bad. How about the guys who are super sneaky and get right on their game. Is that fair? The animal had no chance because the archer had a 8yard shot. I guess what I'm trying to say is I dont follow your logic. Isn't one of the attributes of a good hunter, of any kind, to not be detected by the animal he or she is hunting? If the animal doesn't know you are there, hasn't the hunter done one of their tasks well? Should we announce to our target animal, that we are in lethal range, to give them a chance to flee? Ive heard guys joke around and say "hey that first one was a warning shot, I wanted to give him a sporting chance". Hunting is hunting, not killing or harvesting. Stuff happens, people miss. Ive missed, I dont always have a reason or excuse, I just missed.

 

If you sneak up on a buck and shoot him at 8 yards then yes I would consider that fair chase because you were able to out smart the buck by getting past his senses. If you miss a pig at 20 yards and he decides to come back and give you another shot that's fair because you've out smarted the pig by putting yourself in the right position so you can't be detected. In both these scenarios there is a possibility the animals could detect the hunter either by wind shift, seeing the hunt or hearing the hunter. At what distance does an animal lose it's ability to detect a hunter? I've seen deer missed at distances ranging from 100 yards to 600 yards. All the deer being shot at past 500 just stood there and had no clue as to what was going on unless rocks were blown up on them or in front of them. In general shots between 400 and 300 the deer knew something was up and would run a bit after being shot at then stand there trying to figure what was going on. Most of the time anything under 300 the deer would just flat out run. There was one time I watch a bedded buck get missed twice at 150 yards. The guy shot over it on the first shot and the buck stayed bedded after missing high the 2nd time the buck bolted so I know there are exceptions but in general this is what I've seen. Until I see or hear otherwise I'm having a hard time considering shots taken past 500 yards as fair chase because from what I've seen they lose too much of their natural ability to detect the hunter. Just my opinion as of now.

[coues hunter]

Well do you consider killing an animal at 1000 yards fair to that animal? or sportsmanlike?

 

Its obvious my current standpoint on the idea. So rather then bash it take this opportunity to help me see things though your eyes. Really not trying to start a fight here just would like to hear your thoughts.

[youngbuck]

I believe Lark has made a good comment on ethics and legality.

 

I would shoot a deer at 2000 yards if I had the skills to do so. I would also sneak up on a 380 bull and choke him out bare handed if I had the skills to do so (assuming its legal, never looked into it). I dont have those skills, however. I put many miles on my boots and lots of time and money into hunting and scouting. When things come together I want to make sure I have the practice and right equipment to do my best. Whether its spending years at the range practicing with my rifle or deciding to bring my windicator and bears feet on an archery hunt, I want to be prepared. Just for the record, I believe there is equal amount of effort and skill in people who are profecient at 1k yards with a rifle and people who can consistantly take critters with a recurve or long bow.

[Hunter X]

Well do you consider killing an animal at 1000 yards fair to that animal? or sportsmanlike?

 

Its obvious my current standpoint on the idea. So rather then bash it take this opportunity to help me see things though your eyes. Really not trying to start a fight here just would like to hear your thoughts.

 

Thanks for keeping your post civil. As of now from what I've seen no I wouldn't consider that fair chase. I'm still having a hard time considering anything past 500 yards fair chase. The best way I can describe how I feel about it is to compare it to shooting ducks on the water, doves in a tree or quail on the ground. All though it's perfectly legal to do these things some people don't feel it gives the game a sporting chance. This is kind of how I feel towards it. Another way to describe it is to compare it to a hunter taking non broadside or quartering shots. Even though it's not illegal to take one of these questionable shots we still try our best to not take them. I feel the same way about 500+ yard shots even though they are not illegal does it make it right.

 

As 308nut pointed out there are different laws for different states. In AZ we can use radios to hunt with but in others states they are consider illegal and unethical. It baffles me that one thing can be considered unethical and or illegal in one state but not in another. Just because it's legal doesn't make it right.

 

Thanks again for the post hopefully people will fallow your lead and keep it clean. Btw I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter if you have time.

[Redman]

Hunter X you are clearly taking the replies the wrong way...."IT IS ABOUT IF THESE GUYS SHOULD HAVE BEEN TAKING THE SHOTS THEY WERE TAKING"???????????....WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IS IT MAKE IF THE SHOT IS 200 or 500 yds IF THE SHOOTER CAN ACTUALLY HIT THE FRICKING ANIMAL (in the kill zone), the animal is dead!!!!

 

What is fair to you is unfair to me and vise versa...It just drives me crazy when other hunters get on their high horse and frown on other hunters....

 

 

No I'm not taking the replies the wrong way. I know some of these shots shouldn't have been taken. I never said hey guys check out this awesome video it's pretty funny. I simply ask if shooting animals at long range could be considered fair chase? Not if the guys were making bad shots or not. I'm sorry if the video offended a few of you but the only way to show how an animal reacts to getting missed at long range is to show an animal being missed at long range. I asked for people to watch the deers reaction and nothing more and clearly stated this. I want to know if people think a deer will react the same being shot at from 300 as it would from 500+ and what type of reactions they have noticed in their own experiences. If you have anything to say relating to how an animal reacts to being shot at at various distances please feel free to respond otherwise I'd appreciate it if people would stop high jacking this thread.

 

Thanks!

 

Its not rocket science...these are wild animals, the louder a noise is to them the more they will think they are in danger and their need to flee....it has nothing to do with fair chase

[308Nut]

Well do you consider killing an animal at 1000 yards fair to that animal? or sportsmanlike?

 

Its obvious my current standpoint on the idea. So rather then bash it take this opportunity to help me see things though your eyes. Really not trying to start a fight here just would like to hear your thoughts.

 

I have tried to help you see through my eyes in other threads. That said, I have had no intentions of starting a fight and I did not take your comments as a fight either. Again, I totally respect AND admire that you get so close. Having done it myself, I understand where you are coming from.

 

To answer your question yes I feel that IF done cleanly and skillfully it is fair and sportsmanlike. What is not sportsman like is when a hunter KNOWS that shooting 1000 yards is beyond THEIR limits and THEY do it anyways. Resposible and sportsman like go hand in hand. If a hunter takes the responsible approach and acts within his limits AND winthin the law then he is sportsman like.

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

To see it through my eyes you just have to know that everybody in this world has things that they just love to do. Some things 'just do it' for indaviduals. Kind of like brunettes are just more attractive to some guys than blondes. Why? Your guess is as good as mine but thats the way it is. Brunettes with shapely legs 'just do it' for me where the stereo typical blonde with big OO just dont get my blood pumping like the former.

 

If you have ever been fishing and enjoy fishing, it is like a drug. The sound of the water, the smell of fresh air, the swirl of the water when a fat fish rises to nail a fly, and that unbelievable feeling when a fish strikes your lure or bait and the sensation of the of the fish tugging and feels almost like a vibration at times, when he dances on the water and the water dropletts are splashing in every direction reflecting the sunlight like diamonds and when successfully landed, you realize how amazingly pretty a trout or salmon really is the way they glimmer in the sunlight. You are instantly gratified knowing your trip was successfull and you have food for the table and memories for a lifetime.

 

For me when it comes to longrange shooting and hunting, it is like a drug. From a shooting standpoint every time I pull the trigger I get the sensation that is like breaking a glass sliver with my trigger finger knowing that as a male full of testosterone and who enjoys hard work that I can still display finesse and self control. It just feels good. All of the stress I have had for that day or recent days is channelled down that barrel and dissapears with the cloud of burnt powder. It is the sound of the bullet's supersonic crackeling as it speeds towards the target and the pop sound when the bullet strikes a steel target knowing that I did everything right. It is the smell of the fresh air while being out at the range that gets interupted with the smell of burnt powder. It is the challenge of judging and even reading the wind and judging where the target really is and not where it appears to be due to mirage. It is judging how the sun angle or lack of sun is going to affect my perception of where the target is in relation to where my zero was last. It is reading the barometric pressure and temperature and adjusting accordingly because yesterday it was hotter and the pressure was higher. It is the challenge of experiencing something that does not make sense and experimenting and researching physics as to why this phenomenon is happening. It is the challenge of complex mathematical equasions and applying them to make a surgical shot. It is the gratification that I can do something very few people can do with any regularity. I know that sounds self centered and it is but that is the way it is.

 

From a hunting standpoint, it is also like a drug. It is glassing for hours and days to find 'the one', finally finding him and my mind automatically goes to work and becomes intensely focused. How bad is the mirage, how bad is the wind? What is the wind doing? Where is he going to walk? Do I have time to set up and make this shot? Is it too far? Do I need to get closer? Do I have time to get closer? Then when the shot is deemed acceptable, it is the range finding over and over to make sure I have him and not a bush. It is the act of monitering the wind. What can I use to judge the wind? Today I have mirage to help judge. Yesterday I only had a knowledge of how wind traditionally follows various landscapes. The day before I had cotton wood seeds moving through the air. The day before that I had fog moving through the canyon to help. Were they consistent wind patterns? Can I use the few days patterns to understand what the wind is doing today? Then the gadgets come out. The weather station, the wind meter, the ballistic calculator, the angle indicator. then the challenge of trying to type in the variables into my pocket ballistic calculator while my hands are shaking. The anticipation of getting everything right before he feeds his way out of sight or range. The challenge of clearing rocks and or brush to make a suitable place to lay and sometimes having to get creative because my front rest is too short or the stock is too high for adequete support. Then after ALL variables are accounted for and I have adjusted for them is the waiting game. The anticipation of him turning to just the right angle, for the wind to settle into where I set my scope for, trying to control my breathing and nerves. The fact that I see the whole animal in all his glory along with the background and setting 'just does it' for me. Rather than looking at merely just fur up close. The light glimmering off his horns, the female that just ran away cause she is tired of being pestered by the rutting male, the colorfull bird that just flew through my sight picture, then settling my finger gently on the trigger and begining to squeeze softly while mentally imagining a clean shot going off, the imagery of follow through and that the rifle will not hurt me. There is no need to flinch. Then I am envisioning the hammer dropping and the game folding. Then to my suprise, BANG! The feeling of relief when the bullet is finally on it's way. The crack of the bullet in mid flight, recovering from the recoil and getting a line on the game once again just in time to see the last bit of vortex in the air left by the bullet as I watch it drop into the chest cavity of my inteded target and watching what happens next be it fold or run a few yards. These things 'just do it' for me. The victory and satisfaction of knowing all of my preparation has payed off. Not only so the animal didnt suffer but knowing I just pulled off a shot that most hunters only get to dream about as well as put meat on the table.

 

Many people will still not understand this. For me it is simple. Mentally, I need challenges regularly. Otherwise I get bored fast. My mind runs 100 miles per hour most of the time and everyday mundane things make me insanely bored. I am a VERY methodical type of person who also is an extreme perfectionist. Long range hunting and shooting offers me both. This is why it is so satisfying to me. Watching a perfectly calculated shot drill the middle of the target despite the fact that the wind and air density is totally different today than it was yesterday is beyond gratifying for me. To know that the math was done right and the varibles were compensated for as well as knowing I held my rifle just right and squeezed of a clean shot.

 

Many hunters often say that longrange hunters are lazy and that is why we shoot game way out there. I would like to see those critics get out of bed at 5:00 am and drive for an hour to get to a good shooting spot early before the wind kicks in to get an experiment done. The countless hours spent working extra to be able to afford bullets, powders, rifles, scopes and the gas to drive 100 miles round trip to get to suitable place to shoot and the countless hours driving, shooting, reloading, testing, experimenting, and researching physics or ballistics. Worst of all spending countless hours cleaning rifles after shooting the piss out of them. If that is not hard work, I would like to see what hard work is.

 

Sure, anybody can go out on any given day and get on a small target at 1000 yards after shooting several sighters. The real challenge here is to be able to hit a 10" target with ONE bullet. First round PRECISION long range shooting is not easy and is very challenging. For me, it is my drug.

[Guest Lobo]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is - have the deer been shot at before? Any thinking animal (deer think homeboy) will realize - learn - that if they stick around too long something bad will happen. They get hunted everyday of their lives since they are born. It's instinct. If I keep chasing a buck he will realize he has to get outta dodge at some point. He will learn that if he stays away he stays alive.

Peace Hunter X.

[Hunter X]

Hey everyone I know this is long but please read it.

 

The reason I post the video I was attempting to have an adult discussion about how deer react after being shot at in relationship to the distance they are being shot at from. Obviously I failed and failed big. But for the life of me I can't believe some of the comments that have been posted on this thread about the hunters in the video. None of you were there and none of you know these guys. So before you make any more judgments about these hunters please read what I've wrote below.

 

The first deer missed in the video happened in Nov of 2004. He was shot at by a 45 year grown man. It was his first deer hunt and he was very excited. I've only met the guy 1 time before this hunt. He started shooting his gun every weekend after he found out he drew the tag so about 5 months. He was comfortable shooting up to 300 yards or so and he was more then capable of making the shot he took. He took the shot of a tripod so he had a good rest. The deer was facing away for about 2 to 3 mins and the guy waited until the bucked turned broadside. He shot 1 time and missed. The bullet actually hit a single limb that the hunter didn't see. I don't know how bad this effected the shot or not but afterwords when I talked to him about it he said he felt good about the shot and he thought the branch is what caused the miss. He wasn't happy at all he missed and he was very upset about it for the rest of the hunt. Bottom line the guy did everything right he just missed. It happens. Does this guy deserve some of the things people said about the shooters in this video? I think not.

 

 

Now for the second deer shot at in the video. It happened Oct 2004. The hunters were a father and son team and it was only their 2nd year hunting. The boy was 13 at the time of this hunt. I was asked to go along and help glass and to video their hunt for them. We found the deer opening morning and closed the distance from 1000 yard to just above 200. Both the kid and the dad got set up on tripods so they too had a good rest to shot off of. The buck was feeding in front of us and was offering a quartering away shot. We waited 5 or so minutes for the buck to give a broadside shot. As soon as the buck turned the kid shot barely missing the buck by an inch or two high. Then the dad took a running shot fallowed up by another shot by the kid. All shots were clean misses and after talking to the kid about it he said he might have jumped the trigger a bit because he had buck fever. He too felt bad about missing the shots along with his dad. Once again they did just about everything right except for both of them taking a running shot after the first shot was missed. What can I say they got excited between the both of them they've hunted deer about 10 days in their whole life so I can understand why they were so excited. Do their actions warrant what has been said about them? I'd have to say no.

 

Now on to the 3rd deer in the video. This happened in 2008. The hunter has been hunting for years and knows a lot about guns and shoots year round. I have seen this guy shoot and he's an excellent shot. I hunted with him for quite a while and he is a very good friend of mine. I've been with him for three of his deer kills and this is the first time I've seen him not kill a deer he has shot at. I don't know everything about his gun other then it's a long range set up and he's comfortable up to 700 yards with it and more then capable of make a 500 yard shot. He was set up on a tripod so he had a good rest. His first shot was about 2 feet high but I didn't see it because I flinched from the muzzle blast. This gun had a muzzle break and was extremely loud. I could see a bit of dust and it looked like he shot high so I told him maybe high. He decided to make no adjustments for his second shot because we didn't know for sure where the first bullet hit. His second shot was high again and this time I saw it and when I told him where he hit he couldn't believe it. He checked his turrets and they were off from where he thought they were so he cranked them down and took another shot hitting low this time. He said a few choice words and made 1 final adjustment and took two more shots that went right under the buck. None of his shots were rushed shots or shots that he wasn't capable of making. The guy just missed a tough shot to make. All shots were good broadside shots. After we got back to the truck he shot a box of shells out of his gun at various distance to make sure his gun was still on. After he found out that his gun was still on he was very upset with himself that he didn't have his turrets dialed in correctly. Mistakes happen and in the 15 years that I've been hunting with the guy this is the first time I've seen him not miss like this. So should I have told him enough is enough? He's a grown man more then capable of making a 500 yard shot and I've seen him do it time and time again. Who am I to tell a guy that is a better shot then me that he needs to stop shooting. Does this warrant the things said about the shooters in this video? If so these same comments would apply to more then half the hunter out there.

 

On to the 4th deer missed in the video. This happened Nov 2007. The hunter is a 23 year old young man who has been hunting and shooting his whole life. He shoots year round every chance he gets and is a very good shot. I've seen him at the range and he's good up to 600 yards. We start off by getting the hunter set up on a tripod so he has a good rest. He watched the buck in his scope for a good 5 mins preparing himself before taking a shot at the buck. After this time he felt pretty confident he could make the shot and he told me as soon as the buck stops he was going to shot. The buck stops and 10 seconds later the hunter shoots missing the buck barely over his back. The shot was perfect left and right but 6 inches higher then what he was aiming for. I don't know about you but being off by 6 inches at 550 yards isn't a that bad of a shot. It's probably comparable to being off by 1 or 2 inches at 100 yards. Anyways he takes his time and takes three more shots at the buck missing on all three shots. The buck wasn't going anywhere and the hunter could have easily taken more shots but he had the will power to do the right thing and realized he should probably stop shooting so he did. We were able to watch the buck for good 15 mins and all this time the hunter could be taking more shots at the buck but he didn't. To this day I still think very highly of this guy for electing to not shoot anymore at this buck. He didn't say much on the 2 hour hike back to the truck needless to say he was very disappointed in himself. He even had two more days to hunt but he choose not to hunt anymore because he was so upset with himself so we went home early. Since then I've had the please of hunting with this guy this past season in 2010. During this hunt he had bucks in his scope on 7 different occasions twice at around 8oo yards, twice around 600, twice around 450, and once at 375. Never once did he take a shot because the right situation never presented itself. He could have easily taken numerous shots that other hunters probably would have taken but he didn't. So once again does this hunter deserve the crap that has been posted? Once again I'm going to say no.

 

Now for the last missed buck on the video. The hunters are the same father and son team as in the second video one year later it happened Oct of 2005. The kid is now 14 and this is only the third time they've been deer hunting. We find this buck on opening morning. After finding the buck I locate what looks to be like a good spot for the guys to shot from. I range it out and it is 500 yards from our current position. To me it looks like they should be around 300 yards from the deer from this spot so that's what I tell them. When they get over to the shooting location the dad ranges the deer but it won't work. He tries a few more times and still couldn't get it to work so he thought it must be busted. Well since I told him I thought it should be around 300 yards that's what he thought it was. Boy was I off. For some reason just before getting set up to shoot they separate from each other by about 100 yards I never ask why they did this but they did. So the shots were coming in from different angles. This is why they look like they are hitting all over the place but shots from both the dad and the kid were pretty close left and right considering the distance. They both get set up on their tripods and wait for the buck to offer them a shot. When the buck finally stops broadside the kid shoots and misses. Well we all know whats going to happen if your shooting a 600 yard shot with a 308 using 150 gr corelocks with a gun zeroed in at 100 yards. Your going to hit very low. So low that I couldn't see where they were hitting in my viewfinder. So long story short they both empty there guns taking 5 shots each. Out of these 10 shots 8 were standing broadside or quartering away. I can't remember how many shots it took for me to realize how low they were hitting but I know it was at least after the 5th or 6th shot before I was able to see where they were hitting. After they got done unloading their guns and stopped to reload I tried to reach them on the radio to see how far they were from the deer but they couldn't hear me on their end. After reloading the kid takes one more shot and this time the dad sees just how low they are hitting so he tells his kid to stop shooting and to try and get closer. As the kid works his way closer the bucks finally spooks and starts to take off. Well the kid see this and sets up as quick as he can and takes two running shots both missing just behind the buck. He tries his best to calm his nerves and realized he needs to wait for the buck to stop before shooting again. The kid gets 2 more shots both standing broadside barely missing both. After everything was said and done we all talk for quite a while on what could have been done differently. We all agreed the major contributing factor in all this was the lack of experience. If the dad would have known more about rangefinders they would have never shot from where they did and should have been able to sneak up to within 200 yards. Since then they have both learned a lot more about hunting and as far as I know they have not missed any shots of their shots. The dad took a 160 class buck in 09. He had the buck at 300 yards but knew he could get closer. He ended up closing the distance to a measly 45 yards before making a good clean broadside kill on his 1st shot. The son also took a buck in 09 at 120 yards this too was a one shot kill.

 

These guys are not as bad as some of you thing they are. They definitely don't deserve the comments that some of you have posted about them. They all try their best to be good ethical hunters. They do not go out every hunting season and lob bullets hoping one will hit. They do not dust their guns off a week before they hunt and hope it's still sighted in. Sure they made some mistakes but who here hasn't? Does this mean they should have their guns taken from them and never be able to hunt again. I'm pretty sure majority of hunters out there has missed a shot or two in their lifetime. I really don't care what people say about me because I know who I am and I know I'm not what some of you say I am. But to say what has been said about these other guys by people that have no clue who they are and how they hunt is totally uncalled for and is complete garbage.

[308Nut]

Dont take this the wrong way but after a recent and sometimes semi heated thread in the campfire ('its been bugging me'), what type of response did you really expect here?

 

I mean no disrespect. Just curious.