Coues in "other" Mexican states

[westoakland]

I'd appreciate any feedback on Coues deer information from Mexican states other than Sonora and Chihuahua.

Can you tell me if the white-tail deer in the more southern Mexican states like Durango and Aguascalientes are actually Coues deer?

Any help with this, references or otherwise will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Westoakland

[billrquimby]

I'd appreciate any feedback on Coues deer information from Mexican states other than Sonora and Chihuahua.

Can you tell me if the white-tail deer in the more southern Mexican states like Durango and Aguascalientes are actually Coues deer?

Any help with this, references or otherwise will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Westoakland

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

It depends. I temporarily can't find my other reference books, but SCI follows many scientists who recognize Coues white-tailed deer from all of Arizona, New Mexico and Sonora, and portions of Chihuahua, Durango, Zacatecas, Aquacalientes, Nayarit and a couple of other Mexican states.

 

The key word is "portions." There are areas in Mexico where the ranges of Coues and a couple of Mexican subspecies overlap and "blending" occurs.

 

Bill

[CouesWhitetail]

I have currently been working with Boone and Crockett to expand their definition of the range of Coues deer to include the state of Durango. There is an outfitter there that contacted me regarding Coues hunts there and that got me wondering if B&C accepted coues deer from any other Mexican states other than Sonora and Chihuahua. They do not. B&C said what they need is the Mexican Game and Fish to provide info on the range of Coues in Mexico. So the Mexican govt will be sending the information to the next B&C meeting to expand the range B&C considers for Coues. I believe the information is supposed to be at B&C as of today and the records comittee meeting is early next month.

 

I hope to go down to that ranch and see the deer they have down there in Durango. But I think they must be Coues.

 

FYI - This ranch will be offering Coues hunts for the first time in 40 years. Might be a great opportunity for those of you considering a hunt in Mexico.

 

Here is a link that shows the range of the WT species as Safari Club Int'l sees it and it shows the Coues range going into Durango and a little farther south.

SCI WT Range map

 

And here is another website that shows a range map that goes far south into Mexico:WT range map

 

 

Bill - what other Mexican subspecies are you referring to? And where does the blending occur? I would think other than over by Texas, that there isn't much chance of blending of subspecies. Let me know if you have other info.

 

 

Amanda

[Benbrown]

I believe that Cemex is reintroducing Coues whitetails (formerly called del Carmen whitetails) in their properties that they own and manage in the Sierra el Carmen south of Big Bend National Park. In conversations with their biologists, Coues are supposed to occur in several of the mountain ranges in NW Coahuila.

 

If you look at the maps in Hall's "Mammals of North America", they delineate the supposed distribution of O.v.couesi and O.v. carminis. If you then accept the conclusion that couesi and carminis are the same subspecies, the range would indeed extend into northwestern Coahuila. Hall's maps also show couesi extending clear down to the central highlands plateau of Mexico and lists at least one specimen from Zacatecas.

 

For Boone and Crockett's purposes, you have to draw the line somwhere and where the lines are indistinct, you have to err on the side of caution so that trophies are truly representative of the primary gene pool.

[westoakland]

Thanks so much for your input. It is much appreciated.

What SCI does re: Coues taxonomy is interesting (maybe even acceptable) but not necessarily biologically driven. Instead, my experience with B&C tells me their taxonomy designations may be based more on biology rather than trophy-member accolade.

However, in general, I maintain the "state of the art" for accurate Coues designation (in my unprofessional opinion) is still wanting.

For example, I hunted Gould's turkeys in Aguascalientes last spring, and also enjoyed the opportunity to observe lots of whitetails. Leaning on 11 consistent years of hunting Coues deer in Sonora, it occurred to me that the whitetails I saw in Agus. looked & acted exactly Sonora Coues.

Therefore my question.

The ranch owner in Agus. confidently asserted his deer were Coues. He is credible, believable, educated, realistic and sophisticated.

So, what's a guy to do? Were the deer on his ranch Coues or some other subspecies of whitetail?

If they aren't Coues, what are they?

Thanks folks.

[billrquimby]

"Bill - what other Mexican subspecies are you referring to? And where does the blending occur? I would think other than over by Texas, that there isn't much chance of blending of subspecies. Let me know if you have other info."

 

 

Hi Amanda. I still can't find my Hall and other respected deer reference materials, but the WMI's "Whitetail Ecology and Management," page 517, has an excellent map showing the ranges of the sixteen subspecies in Mexico and Central America. It shows the Coues range touching the ranges of O.v. sinaloae, O.v. texanus, O.v. nelsoni, O.v. miquihuanensis, and O.v. carminis. "Blending" (or intergradation) occurs along the borders of the ranges of the various subspecies.

 

The Coues whitetail race does not reach the state of Texas.

 

Bill

[billrquimby]

"What SCI does re: Coues taxonomy is interesting (maybe even acceptable) but not necessarily biologically driven. Instead, my experience with B&C tells me their taxonomy designations may be based more on biology rather than trophy-member accolade."

 

 

I have no intention of getting into a hissing contest over SCI versus B&C. As the former editor of the SCI record book, however, I can tell you that while SCI's Trophy Records Committee does indeed listen to "trophy-member accolades," every attempt is made to be certain its decisions are based on sound biology. SCI's Coues deer range, for example follows Hall (1981).

 

It is a fact that SCI does have more whitetail categories than B&C. These came about from a suggestion from Craig Boddington when he was SCI's Americas chairman in the mid-1980s. Craig felt, and rightly so, that it is unfair to have only two categories ("white-tailed deer" and "Coues white-tailed deer") for listing trophy specimens of the 30 North American whitetail subspecies. The differences in average antler size of typical bucks in the various regions is just too great to lump them all together as it had been doing.

 

There was no way SCI could establish 30 categories, however, so it was decided to create regional categories. Thus, SCI accepts entries for "northwestern," "northeastern," "southeastern," "Texas," "Coues," and "Mexican" and "Central American" white-tailed deer. (I've been out of the loop since I retired, so there could have been some recent changes.) The system is not perfect, but it seems fairest to me.

 

As more entries are received for each of the 17 subspecies in Mexico and Central America I would expect more categories in those regions will be created.

[billrquimby]

"As more entries are received for each of the 17 subspecies in Mexico and Central America I would expect more categories in those regions will be created."

 

Oops! I meant to say 16.

 

BQ

[westoakland]

Thanks again for all the input and the references to other websites.

Please don't mistake my comment about SCI - certainly no hissing and no contest. No hypersensitivity either, and I don't believe SCI is better or worse then others who make animal categories. I've been a happy and proud SCI member since the 1970's, but I'm not a taxonomist or deer biologist. I'm merely asking for clarification and a subspecies designation if the Aguascalientes deer is not a Coues.

If we use the SCI designation of a "portion" of Aguascalientes as one respondent suggests, I'm also wondering how SCI sectioned a state that has only 2,157 sq mi. of area.

Thanks again.

[billrquimby]

Westoakland:

 

I suspect the whitetails you saw in Aguascalientes and those Amanda spoke about in Durango are indeed Coues deer. I still can't find my reference books (especially Hall 1981) -- I have more than 2,500 books on natural history and big game hunting and I sometimes lose books for months at a time -- but below is what the SCI record book gives as Coues range. It was written by a naturalist in Seattle named Jack Schwabland, and I can tell you no one alive or dead picks nits more closely than he. Jack did not adopt these boundaries willy-nilly. There had to be non-conflicting references in the accepted literature or it would not have been included.

 

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? Mexico: all of SONORA; west of Hiwy 45 in CHIHUAHUA from the U.S. border to Jimenez, then west of Hwy 49; DURANGO west of Hwy 49; ZACATECUS west of Hwy 49 to intersection with Hwy 45, then west of Hwy 45; AGUASCALIENTES west of Hwy 45; JALISCO west of Hwy 45 to Lagos de Moreno, then north of Hwy 80 to Guadalajara, then north of Hwy 15; NAYARIT east of Hwy 15; and SINALOA east of Hwy 15. This boundary approximates Hall (1981) and other authorities."

 

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I was unaware of any scientist who combines the Coues and Carmen Mountain races as BenBrown reports, but I would not be surprised if one did. I shot a Carmen Mountain deer many years ago near Alpine, Texas, and there wasn't a dime's worth of visible difference between it and all the whitetails I've taken in Arizona. For that matter, the small herd of deer a friend captured in the state of Queretaro and now keeps in an enclosure at his ranch northeast of Mexico City also look just like Coues deer to me, but what do I know?

 

I would hope that CeMex is absolutely certain that couesi and carmensis are the same race before it "reintroduces" couesi to the Sierra del Carmen. It would be like dumping northern woodland whitetails from Michigan into the Huachuca, Galiuro, Santa Rita and Tumacacori Mountains. The effect on the gene pool of the little deer we all love would be disastrous.

 

Actually, I didn't realize carmensis needed reintroducing to the del Carmens.

 

Bill

[westoakland]

Thanks again for all the information.

I'm in the process of finding out which side of the highway the ranch in Aguas. is on. When I do, I'll let you know.