Muzzeloader questions

[Tines]

Well, it took me almost 8 yrs but I convinced my wonderful wife to go hunting. She thought that the HAM hunt that Amanda puts on in Feb would be a fun start. I can't wait! I'm trying to make this a fun experience for her. I've been really impressed with her so far in wanting to do it the "right way". She doesn't want to step into the field and have me hand her a rifle and say "there you go!". She wants to practice and scout. It's been really cool so far...

 

To keep this simple, I need some info ASAP from all of you experts. We almost decided to go with my .357 but she just doesn't feel "lethal" enough with it. And the last thing I want to happen is my wife feeling forced to hunt with it and it's a bad experience for her.

 

So she gave me the okay to buy a muzzeloader! I know I've probably narrowed it down to the CVA. In what little I know, they seem to have a decent reputation for what they retail for. I also like the idea of the 209 primer mzldr's. Here are a couple of questions:

 

What are the advantages/disadvantages of .50 cal vs .45 cal?

 

Can I reduce the charge for her and not lose accuracy? She shoots my 25-06 pretty well but really likes to shoot the .22, if you catch my drift? Ha!

 

I'm not looking for anything fancy but definitely something I might consider hunting with in the future. If any of you are looking to sell one I might be interested too!

 

 

Thanks for your help....

 

Jake

 

 

 

 

 

[elkaholic]

not cva article but very good info--

 

http://www.shootingtimes.com/longgun_reviews/muscle_1104/

[More D]

muzzy hunting is fun, ibut it takes work!

 

50 vs 45. 45cal never seemed to pan out popularity wise so you can find some on ''clearance'' for a good deal but with the years it might be hard to find sabots for it. they also seems to have less energy because of less bullet weight which will be fine for javies but later for elk it could be an issue if you ever hunt with it.

 

you can reduce loads for comfort and still get great accuracy. muzzy loaders are VERY tempermental when it comes to bullet/sabot combinations, charge weight and black powder used. even what and how frequently you clean it with. much much more so than center fire. when i developed the load used for elk it took nine trips to the range and more than a dozen different combinations. i recommend starting with loose powder so you can try lots of different charge wieghts instead of being stuck to 30 or 50grn incraments.

 

also be very good about cleaning and cleaning the rifle properly after the range session is done. ive seen a few that have been ruiend because fo black powers corrosiveness.

 

they can be very accurate but they shed energy quickly because of brick style arrowdineamics. some scopes are rated to hit at 200+ yards but again the energy is not there.

 

 

[firstcoueswas80]

I would look heavuly at the TC Triumph. Very good gun, and they have the flextech stock should cut down on recoil quite a bit. Accurate as well especiall with Buckhorn 209 powder

[Tines]

Thanks for the info, guys. I'll look into it all!

[firstcoueswas80]

Any update?

[HaYen]

What are you H.A.M.ing for? I shoot a CVA Optima Elite. Smooth trigger tight tolerances on the barrel, and a quality product.

 

First, recoil. If you're hunting for say Javilina 50gr or one 50gr equivalent pellet out of a 50 is pretty soft shooting. Folks at the range who want to shoot a smoke pole for the first time get intimidated when they hear 50 CAL but are surprised when they pull the trigger. Now there have been a couple a "tough guys" who wanted to shoot 3 pellets and found out it had a bite. Just like the larger CF magnums the heavier the bullet, the more force (in recoil pounds) you'll experience. I shoot as light as 250gr bullet and as heavy as a 460 and I can feel a difference.

 

50 vs 45? Of the 2 50's seem to be the most popular have have the most products. YMMV

 

 

Projectile choice. Powerbelts are considered conicals. I like to think of them as not quite the size of the bore until the trigger is pull and the rear skirt is expanded. the problem with PB is they are softer than most and can be over push to failure. Something to keep in mind. I also like Extreme Elites for the longer shots. These are boat tail bullets in .40 and .451 cal that would go in the appropriate sabot and down the muzzle. For conicals, I really like Parker Traditional's or Hydro-Con's Conicals. They come with there own wads and are very accurate in front of 110grs of BH209 (more on the BH below). If you do order the Parkers, see if you can find out the size of your barrel first. they also make a bullets for Sabots. Muzzle loaders are not like CF rifles, 50 Cal can mean .491 - .508. That's a huge difference when trying to get a bullet down the barrel. Other bullets to try are Thors (non-leaded), Hornady FPB, Scorpion PT Golds with Crush Rib Sabots (CRS - more on those below), and not quite as accurate but monstrous in size are the No Excuse conicals. Their "small" 50 cal is 460grs. Barnes also makes a wonderful line of ML bullets.

 

Sabots. Most bullets come with their own Sabots. A lot of ML'ers (myself included) like the after market Crush Rib Sabots by Harvester. They go down the tube so much smoother. YMMV

 

Powder choice. We can start to work our way down the decision tree. On one side you have pure black. A lot of traditional shooters like this product. They say its accurate and has a bad rap for being dirty. On the other side there is Black Powder Substitute (BPS). This product comes in two flavors: pellets and loose. Important to know because some states require loose only (more on regs below). For the longest time we shooters had two basic products Pyrodex, which is a synthetic black according to the manufacture so it matches one for one by volume with black loads, and Triple 7 (sometimes listed as T7), which is a higher energy BPS. Both come in pellets and loose powder. Other BPS products are American Pioneer Powder (APP) and Jim Shocky Gold (also by APP). These come in sticks not pellets and loose. The two newest products on the market are IMR White Hots (pellets) and Black Horn 209 (a.k.a. BH209 a loose). First WH's. I like this product because unlike Pyrodex and T7 and like APP and JS Gold, its a cleaner burning powder. With this product I can get 10 shots off without having to swab the barrel. With Pyrodex I have to swab the barrel after every other shot. But also like Pyrodex, I can load as small as a 50gr charge say for Javilina. BH209 as its name implies requires the hot ignition of a 209 primer, but more so than than that, because its characteristics are so close to smokeless powder, it requires a really hot 209 Magnum primer. Western Powder the manufacture of BH209 recommends either Federal 209A or CCI 209M primers. I worked with this powder when it first hit the market and spent many hours on the phone with Western Powder working out problems. Long story short, depending on the projectile, I shoot anywhere from 90 - 120gr (max charge for BH209 out of a modern in-line by the way) and a Federal 209A primer. BH209 is the most accurate powder I have shot to date. It beat out my best WH and Pyrodex loads by a quarter inch at 100 yards. Like the WH's I can get 15 shots down range (then I run out of Powerbelts) without swabbing the barrel. I guess this is a good thing if I'm taking 15 shots on an ELK (oh here comes the form flames I can feel it now). Almost forgot, Hodgdon's came out with a T7 Magnum which I haven't tried yet.

 

No powder on the market today is so "clean" that it will allow you to scrub the barrel another day. Always, thoroughly clean your equipment at the end of a shooting day and swab when necessary.

 

Ignition and Primers. Mentioned the importance of these with respect to to BH209. There are two basic flavors of 209 primers: Muzzle Load specific primers (Wolf, T/C, T7, Fusion) and Shotgun primers (CCI, CCI Magnum, Federal, Federal Magnum, Remington STS). One benefit of a shotgun magnum primer is good ignition in the bitter cold; whilst one negative is you can get more blow back and a sticky primer. I'm not going to go over #11 or Caps as these are used in older or modern ML equipped to use them like the CVA Elkhorn.

 

Advise on a load. Find out what your rifle likes and stick with it. Me, I don't think a 460gr conical is appropriate for a Javilina or rabbit (yes I hunt rabbit with a ML), so I shoot a PB with 1 50gr WH pellet. I have a separate load for deer and Elk that uses a Barnes Spitfire T-EZ and BH209.

 

Regulations. Know the regs of where you intend to hunt. Arizona is pretty easy, push it down the muzzle and you're good. New Mexico has two hunt seasons. One is geared towards a more traditional set up (no optics, loose powder only, no 209 ignition...) and the other more like AZ. Some North West States require open ignition. You get the idea.

 

Traditional vs Modern In-line. Ok you didn't ask but you did say you were relatively new to ML'ing and I just want to nip this one in the tush before those flames start. They are different enough in setup and shooting skills that I really don't compare the two. In fact, I always advise to own both and judge for yourself if there is one you like over the other. I personally love them both. Oh I can see the "going both ways flames" already.

 

Cleaning. Best advise, read the manual. The manufacture will tell you what products are safe and and effective. Invest in a welding tip cleaner to clean out the flash hole. Always keep it clean.

 

Finally (no really I have to get back to work), Safety.

 

NEVER EVER mid fire a ML. If you can't seat the projectile, pull the breech plug, dump the powder, and push it back out.

 

Know the limits of your rifle with regards to the powder you are using. Most modern ML's can accept 150grs of Black Powder which is not the same as 150grs of BH209. Because of its higher energy, most rifles can only handle 120grs of BH209. A 50gr pellet of T7 is not actually 50grs of loose compressed into a pellet. It is the equivalent of 50grs of BP. Hence, 50grs of loose T7 will have more energy.

 

Keep your powder limited in quantity; cool; and dry.

 

For more on the subject check out the the following sites:

 

blackhorn209.com.com, Hodgdon.com for product information and load data

maxmuzzleloader for product reviews

Track of the wolf, Sportsmen's Warehouse, Cabelas for supplies

CVA.com, TCarms.com, traditionsfirearms.com for Muzzle Loaders (if you want to see a monster check out badbullmuzzleloaders.com) There are also a few custom ML builders out there but you did say CVA was a good price range so I'll let you google those.

 

Have fun; be safe; and always feel free to ask.

 

HaYen

Edited January 24, 2011 by HaYen

[Tines]

Any update?

 

Here's my update. Thank you for all of the help to everyone. HaYen, GREAT info, thanks!

 

A friend from HS stopped by my house the other day and after we got to talking, I realized that he had 2 mzldrs sitting in his safe collecting dust. He said I was more than welcome to use them so I jumped all over that deal! He let me borrow his T/C Encore and his Knight (I believe it's an MK-85 if I remember correctly???). Both are topped with Leupold mzldr scopes. Very fortunate to have a friend with these.

 

Off we went to the range. I was a little concerned about the recoil so I shot first. I shot the T/C and it shot well. Both rifles are shooting 250gr Sabot's and 2 pellets of Pyrodex. He told me the Knight shot really well but he hasn't had much time to work with the T/C's load. Anyway, I was happy with putting a couple within 2.5" @ 100yds of eachother with the T/C. And this was with a semi-stable rest. After finding that the T/C's recoil wasn't too bad, I had my wife get behind it and she let her rip. She didn't complain about the recoil at all, just all of the smoke. Ha! More importantly, she shot it well too. On a side note, she seems to shoot everything I put in her hands really well. She's calm, and slowly squeezes the trigger like shes told. She's right handed but left-eye dominant. Although sometimes it's easier for her to shoot right handed, she's pretty set on doing everything left-handed if it'll make her a better shot. That's been really nice.

 

I then took out the Knight and shot it. I must say, it was REALLY nice! It had a much better trigger and shoots fantastic groups. She shot it as well with the same results. I really like the T/C's simplicity of loading but the Knight's accuracy was noticeably better. I'm in NO WAY stating that Knight is more accurate than T/C in mzldrs. This has been my ONLY experience with the two and this one load. This is just what I found with these set-ups.

 

My wife is much more excited now that she feels more "lethal". I don't think she was very eager to chase them around with a .357. I think this will work fine. After a few more trips to the range, that will be the deciding factor in which one we take. Maybe we'll take both so we'll be able to "reload" MUCH faster......

 

Thanks again for the info, everyone. I'll let you know how it goes.

[tjhunt2]

Tines, since your wife doesn't archery hunt you have made a good choice for her ham hunt. This way she won't have to get as close and hopefully will have more time to get settled in to the shot with your help. She'll be shaking like a leaf and you will to I bet. A shooting stick of some kind will be very helpfull for a steady rest.

 

I started my wife out hunting when we first married and I made the mistake of not going at her pace instead of mine and she quit for quite a few years and it made it hard for me to get her back into the game again. I should have been way more patient with her instead of pushing her. If you want a hunting partner for life then maybe you can learn from my mistake. Please don't yell at your wife and call her names when things don't go the way you want them to. lol Yea I did all that stupid stuff.

 

TJ

[HaYen]

WARNING!!!! Muzzle loaders are addictive.