It has been bugging me…

[Guest Lobo]

[blazin84]

I have a concern, a problem, worry about us as hunters… We are too concerned with numbers and the end result of winning… and it is clouding our judgment as well as our moral & ethical standards. I’ll open up a can of worms here, and there are several issues I’d love to address, but for now, I am going to focus in one place… Shooting.

Equipment, knowledge, practice, and ability can extend the range of a hunter from the once standard 300 yards and in… to distances pushing a ½ mile or more… There are many pieces of country where closing the distance does not provide any opportunity to harvest the animal. For this reason the use of a well executed long range shot can make areas that were previously un-hunt able… a possibility, providing the conditions are right (perfect).

Here is where we become our own worst enemy… We read about it, we see the success, we see the guys on the next ridge doing it… But not all of us have invested, tested, practiced, or even laid the ground work to put long range hunting into practical field application.

I myself have a put quite a bit of time into LR shooting (but not as much as I’d like) over the last few years. I have a gun that I am very confident in at and around 600 yards. Since I invested my time and money into this gun (a 300 wby mag) we have had 17 out 17 animals recovered at ranges between 220 and 600 yards. We have enjoyed many one shot kills… and a couple that required a little more work. I however, will honestly argue that I have seen far worse marksmanship at less than 300 yards by other hunters, than any hunting story involving my LR rifle… I do harbor guilt for making long range hunting seem a common place or cavalier, even though we have never taken a shot over 650 yds. But, I built my gun for those times when you can’t get any closer, yet we shoot over 50% of the critters we take at under 400 yds. I also own a backup 300 wby mag that I consider to be a 400 yd and closer gun… we do not use it for anything but sub-400 yard hunting situations. It is my responsibility to be not only objective of my equipment and the hunting situation, but also who is pulling the trigger. I am seeing less and less objectivity, while I see more and more willingness to get lead in the air….

This year I heard more shots per elk harvested, than I ever have on an elk hunt. We witnessed over a Box of shells thrown at a spike at probably close to a ½ mile… they finally hit it after spraying lead all over a 40 yd circle. I witnessed a guide (for a VERY well known Outfitter on this forum and around the western deer world) let his client borrow his LR rifle and sling lead (3 shots) at just over 800 yds… then walk away saying they missed. I bet I’ll find a 6x6 elk head within 75 yds of where they were shooting in the spring while I horn hunt in there. The “whack” was pretty distinctive on the second shot from where I stood and the elk acted hit for the next 30 minutes while standing “ground hitched” then taking a couple labored steps into the brush and gone from site. No, they did not walk up in there and look for sign (to my knowledge), they packed their gear and left. To their defense I did not hike there to look for their bull either, so I could be mistaken about the hit but not about the circumstances. I know of a guy who took 17 shots at his Big bull before it was a done deal. I watched a Giant bull get whacked using 5-6 shots… many smaller bulls 2-5 shots… heard of many losses including an estimated 390 type bull… and I watched a gentleman miss 2 out of 3 at 231 yds with a rock rest! Does this sound bad??? Well it makes us ALL LOOK BAD! Collectively we are our own worst enemy!! I have an "aquaintance" ("friend" was the wrong word since I know several familys with mulitple tags and taking long shots) that filled 3 out of 3 tags (no losses) all over 400 yd shots for his daughters… all “hold over” shots… This is just as unethical as letting client (or anyone) take an unrehearsed shot at anything alive a ½ mile down range! I have yet to see anyone in any of the situations listed above holding a wind meter or a ballistic calculator and venture to guess that 90% of them don’t even know the BC of the bullet they are shooting. On the other hand, kudos to all who were successful in one shot kills at any range 22-1000 yards…. I know for every poor example I just listed there are several Awesome stories… For example: Kristy Ulmer of <i>Chasin’ a Dream Outfitters </i>shot a bull (330” broken, 345+ if not broke) in a “circus” late hunt that took 2 stalks and 10 hours to close the deal with a single shot at 170 yards (using a gun that could have taken the bull down ethically at 600yds. Congrats to Kristy and Jeremy on a Awesome job!). But, the fact remains we are choking ourselves to death by letting our desire to win, cover up what we know is right or wrong… shame on us… all of us…

I am all for harvesting the best game we can find regardless where it may hide. To me that can and does include the need to shoot beyond 400 yards at times, but it has to be done with measure. Hunting conditions, equipment, and ability must all be at an A+ rating to make a long shot…. Keep in mind the margin of error when you shoot at 800 yds is ½ what it is at 400 yds. To me shooting past 300 yards requires a commitment and requires more thought and calculation with each 100 yds beyond that. What posses us to think we have the right to send that bullet up on a Wing and a Prayer??? Please encourage all the hunters that you know to weigh their actions and put a higher regard for these animals we hunt than on winning. We have to stop ambushing ourselves and start protecting the tradition for the future generations. The responsiblity is ours... yours and mine to step it up.

 

I know that the waters will soon be muddied by everything from blaming the AZGF for putting too many hunters in the woods (however true), to Guides, Outfitters, Trophy hunters vs meat hunters, to attacking me or each other…. But the fact remains we have a choice and we need to choose better and I am not above including myself in the blame.

 

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

[blazin84]

I aggree 100%. The only reason I have ever even taken a shot past 300 yards was a last day of the hunt and I had prepared for a far shot. I am tired of the guys taking shots outside of there capabilities. Thats how we get un-needed wounding losses.

[hookedoncoues]

Good topic, but it is true the people that have no business making those shoots are probably also the ones shooting the sign post on the side of that road and are not able to read.

[Kevin H]

Although I agree with most of what has been posted on this subject, I want to share a couple of experiences I have personally had when it comes to long range shooting...

 

A few years ago I killed a nice muley buck at 805 yards with my .300 Win Mag. I had only practiced (and I mean PRACTICED as I was a police firearms instructor and avid firearms trainer at the time) out to 400 yards. With that being said, the only reason I attempted the shot was I had gut shot the buck at 75 yards when I jerked on the trigger (yes, buck fever happens to the best of us) and he ran across the canyon and was standing broadside at the top of a barren ridge at that long range. I had less than 20 minutes of legal light left and took a good rest, held over the distance I believed the bullet would drop (like you say not to do) based upon research I had done on the ballistics of my particular round and squeezed the trigger. The buck dropped right there with a high shoulder shot (actually right where I guessed the shot should hit). Was this the best scenerio? NO! But I felt that I should attempt to dispatch the buck if I could rather than him suffer throughout the night and find him in the morning.

 

The second experience was similar in that while coues hunting a few years ago, I saw a decent buck at around 650 yards that was literally dragging his guts. Someone else had gut shot him with a cannon... it was noon and I had not heard a shot close by for hours, so either he had put some distance on after being gut shot or had been like that since first light... either way, he needed to die. There was literally no way for me to get any closer without spooking him for sure and having him run off again wounded. I laid down across my pack as my buddy called my shot. I had since changed my hunting set up and was confident out to 600 on a still target and with no wind. I shot and missed my first shot (right over his back)... He came 20 yards closer and I killed him on my second shot. Come to find out, he had been shot almost a mile away at first light and was headed to water...

 

So this brings me to my point. Although sometimes we don't plan on taking shots longer than we normally do, sometimes it happens. All anyone can do is practice as much as they can, buy the best equipment that you can afford based upon your personal situation, and use your best judgement when making those decisions in shoot / don't shoot scenerios.

 

Thanks for reading... I feel better now... Kevin

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

We'd be fools not to acknowldge that $h*T Happens... but over all we must keep or desire to win in check and arrest our own stupidity before fall flat on our faces...LOL. I know we ALL have done and made mistakes... and I am not above admitting it. But the effort is ours to make and that is what this thread is about... I am glad that folks are still reading it and posting to it.

 

On a side note: In my first rant on this thread I mentioned a bull that was shot by a client with the guide's gun at long range and that no one went to look for that bull... Well here is an update.... I spent a day looking for that bull while horn hunting in the spring... but did not look hard enough... an aquaintance was scouting the early bull hunt this fall and picked a large head very near where I was looking for the bull... and now the guide who loaned his gun to his client know knows that I was right for he has seen pics of the head... It does not remidy the situation but maybe it will prevent future stupidity...

[sherman]

this is off the subject but still on the same plane. This year I came across 5 hunters 3 while with my buddy on his wt hunt and 2 on my md hunt drinking beer. This makes my skin craw because they are out there with gun. Same as the lr shooting there might be someone or something hurt because of someones stuppidy. I have been guilty of taking 600 800 and even 900. But looking back I could have closed the distsnce on two of them and maybe even hit one of them. I have seen alot of hit deer get away because the shooter was taking too long of a shot for there skill. This year I made an effort to not let me stand in the way of my good judgement. I took my deer at 125yd but it started at 350yd.

[338EdgeMan]

Shooting long range (500yds to 1000yds and beyond) is absolutely ethical given the right equipment and the proper knowledge. Few people have this and thats why the art of long range hunting gets a bad reputation. You must have a true understanding of ballistics, and understand how a ballistic program works and how to use it. The proper load and bullet must be chosen and that takes time. Velocity consistancy is everything along with the proper BC. You must have the right optics. And have a gun that is truely built for long range, not just thrown together half hearted in the living room. And you must have a caliber that has the energy and none of the smaller calibers quaify period.

[gearsnagger]

Legal Question - You Have a tag for Unit 22 and you are glassing form 24b because the lay of the land you can only see/glass this area of 22 from 24b - You glass up a big buck in Unit 22 !!!!! - Is it legal to soot him from 24b when you have a 22 tag?

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

Legal Question - You Have a tag for Unit 22 and you are glassing form 24b because the lay of the land you can only see/glass this area of 22 from 24b - You glass up a big buck in Unit 22 !!!!! - Is it legal to soot him from 24b when you have a 22 tag?

 

No.. that is against the law.. you must shoot from the unit which you have the tag.

[naturegirl]

I can only speak for myself. I will NOT take a shot that im not 100% comfortable with. See my javelina story on this forum. I predominantly bow hunt but have hunted with a rifle. I personally call BS that you can't get closer than a half mile for a shot. we bow hunters do it all the time. of course to get closer it takes time and the chance of losing the animal but it is the right thing to do. the exception to this is an EXPERT marksman with ALL the right equipment, years of experience with LR shots, etc.

 

I took a pig at 260 yrds with my 270 (heart shot) on a rest but that is a shot I had practiced 1000 times. i took a pig at 10 yards with my bow even though my buddy was encouraging me to shoot when it was running at 40 yards. I did not shoot until I knew I could make a good clean kill. Im one of those people where it will kill me if I can't recover an animal. I've passed on many many many shots because of this.

 

there are many people who are hunting who absolutely shouldn't be. im super thrilled about my upcoming early bull Archery hunt but my ethics will not change. unless im comfortable that I will make the absolute best shot I can, I will not shoot PERIOD!

[Snapshot]

I think alot of long range missed shots are a result of "general laziness" in trying to get closer.

17 missed shots? That person needs some seriuos practice.

 

The only time I took more than 3 shots was when I had a broken rear scope mount and didn't know it. Couldn't figure out why I wasn't hitting the deer.

[superdave]

just because you can, dont mean you should.

[cw4192]

dont't care how much you practice if you dont have the proper gear anything over 600 yards is out of touch for the normal hunter. That is what we have hunting in AZ now is people that buy a $3000 gun and think that they can hit animals just because they saw it on TV. If you a'int a sniper and have the wind and elavation sheet with you U have no business shooting over 600 yards. CNS I've seen what U are talking about and found the animal the next day. ETHICS AND INTEGRITY ARE MISSING IN HUNTING THESE DAY'S

[Jessedr]

CW4192- Right on. Semper Fi. and good hunting....