It has been bugging me…

[308Nut]

Now this one should make you fall down and have convolutions, I promised myself I would get my first 4 digit yardage kill this year if it meant hiking in the opposite direction as the critter till the yardage was right. Why? Becaise I can and just plain want to. I have prided myself with close up harvests and I desire to pride myself of a very far away harvest. I have never even attempted a 1K harvest in the past because I didnt have the equipment or the profficiency to feel comfortable with that range. Now I have both.

M

I will up the ante I figure a 1000 yard rifle shot is equal to a 135 yard bow shot. Anyway the bubble on the bottom of my sight hits 135 yards and the degree angle i must cant my bow up is probably close to the cant of 1000 yard rifle shot. Close to a fair relationship. I just hope I will not be detected by my prey when I'm backing up for the shot. 135 yard bow shot! Why not?

Bob

 

Being an accomplished outdoor FITA archery competitor (98.6 yards) and a long range rifle competitor, I venture to say that 1000 yard rifle shot and a 100 yard bow shot are about equal. Where you get 135 yards is beyond me.

 

In any event, 100 yards for archery and 1000 yards for rifle are both possible albiet difficult. For those who would actually practice and prepare are very realistic.

 

For those that do not do it cannot understand and those who do cannot explain it.

 

Maybe this is where 'ethics' come into play. To me a skillfull 1000 yard precision shot is perfectly ethical where it might be insanely unethical to a bowhunter who only shoots up to 30 yards. Regradless, I know my limitations and play within those boundaries.

 

M

 

 

[slopoke36]

308nut: There use to be a time where 300 yards was the max anybody would dare. There might have been a hunter or two that can do longer shots but they were few and far between. It seems like everyone I run into in the field or on the range now, has the equipment to shoot at questionable ranges.

There are just too many factors involved that worry me about making those shots. I don’t trust the average hunter to take in factors such as: human error, bullet energy, shot groupings, bullet expansion, using the proper scope, etc. You might have done your homework but will you bet your hunting rights that I have?

This argument could go either way and you make excellent points.

 

[slopoke36]

Coues 'n' Sheep: You make a very good point about legendary archery hunters making great shots but who can you name on this site that has done that? My point is: you are comparing the elite with "Joe" hunter. A long range shot at living animals is not hunting, it’s shooting. Only wannabe sniper knuckleheads pull these stunts. There is no fair chase and no challenge at shots well over 400 yards. There is no chance for the animal at all. There is always a way to get closer and pursue the animal the way it was intended. Real hunters with patience and ability get closer.

 

I look at it like I look at sky busting for ducks and geese. Once in a while it works but most of time you just piss other people off.

 

 

DANGIT....and here this whole time I thought I was hunting!

 

slopoke36, although I completely disagree with what you are saying and how you're saying it, I respect your right to your opinions and thanks for sharing honestly with us

 

To keep this reply short, I'll just add that there is a TON of aspects about long range hunting that you are not addressing in your statement. And ALL of those aspects are why it's considered hunting and not just shooting. No matter what weapon you are using and no matter what the distance is, as soon as you have that critter in your scope or behind a pin and your finger is on the trigger, you are about to become a "shooter"! The entire time leading up to that moment, all the planning, scouting, hiking, glassing and finally stalking...... you were a "hunter" and you were hunting.

 

I've killed more critters with a bow than I have with a rifle and I grew up primarily hunting with a bow or a muzzeloader. I fully agree it takes a ton of skill and patience to be a good hunter if you are using a bow or a short range rifle. I also maintain that it takes a ton of skill and patience to be a good hunter with a long range weapon! The difference is in where that skill and patience is applied for each technique but both types of hunting require the same skills to learn about and find your trophy. Hunting is hunting, everyone reserves the right to decide which technique is right for them and as long as it's done with respect to the game, the laws, and other hunters, it's all good JIM>

 

My point is: People seem to be more worried about "harvesting" then the experience. I got the gun and scope to shoot 600 yards. Would I try that shot? The answer is, no. Not because I couldn't make the shot (with practice) but because if I jacked it up somehow; I am not sure I could live with myself. You are right by saying it is a different type of hunting. I feel that you are adding additional variables that can be avoided.

In October I lost a Canada Goose because I took a marginal shot (55 yards). I had goose loads in and proper choke but it was marginal. I had the equipment; it was in my range I below the shot. I would be lying if I said I didn’t feel sick to my stomach. My point: just because I could doesn’t mean I should have took the shot.

 

[NOFX]

Now this one should make you fall down and have convolutions, I promised myself I would get my first 4 digit yardage kill this year if it meant hiking in the opposite direction as the critter till the yardage was right. Why? Becaise I can and just plain want to. I have prided myself with close up harvests and I desire to pride myself of a very far away harvest. I have never even attempted a 1K harvest in the past because I didnt have the equipment or the profficiency to feel comfortable with that range. Now I have both.

M

I will up the ante I figure a 1000 yard rifle shot is equal to a 135 yard bow shot. Anyway the bubble on the bottom of my sight hits 135 yards and the degree angle i must cant my bow up is probably close to the cant of 1000 yard rifle shot. Close to a fair relationship. I just hope I will not be detected by my prey when I'm backing up for the shot. 135 yard bow shot! Why not?

Bob

 

Backing up for a shot seems a little rediculous. But, if that floats your boat then OK. Just dont expect others to respect your PRIDE.

[coues hunter]

Just feel like chiming in again. I dont think this is a question for what weapon at what distance is possible or ethical. There are 1000 yard br shooters making groups that alot of hunters would be proud of at 200. Theres also Archers out there killing plenty of game around the 100 yard mark. It means much more who is behind the weapon rather than whether or not its a "normal range".

I just feel like the animal deserves a chance to use at least one of his senses to assure his survival. An animal has to make a mistake for you to get to the 100 yard line. The same cannot be said about the 1000 yard line.

I thoroughly enjoy the challenge of stalking and out witing the animal. Without that aspect of a hunt I just wouldnt enjoy it.

[slopoke36]

Just feel like chiming in again. I dont think this is a question for what weapon at what distance is possible or ethical. There are 1000 yard br shooters making groups that alot of hunters would be proud of at 200. Theres also Archers out there killing plenty of game around the 100 yard mark. It means much more who is behind the weapon rather than whether or not its a "normal range".

I just feel like the animal deserves a chance to use at least one of his senses to assure his survival. An animal has to make a mistake for you to get to the 100 yard line. The same cannot be said about the 1000 yard line.

I thoroughly enjoy the challenge of stalking and out witing the animal. Without that aspect of a hunt I just wouldnt enjoy it.

 

Very well said.

[AzHunt]

This thread made me think of something I saw several years ago. In some European countries, where hunting is still allowed, when hunters obtain there license/permit/etc, they have to demonstrate a proficiency with their firearm. They have to shoot off-hand at a specified distance at still and moving targets. If they do not pass the test, they are denied the license/permit/etc. Should we, as a group, establish and perform this type of testing? Just food for thought......

[Ernesto C]

This thread made me think of something I saw several years ago. In some European countries, where hunting is still allowed, when hunters obtain there license/permit/etc, they have to demonstrate a proficiency with their firearm. They have to shoot off-hand at a specified distance at still and moving targets. If they do not pass the test, they are denied the license/permit/etc. Should we, as a group, establish and perform this type of testing? Just food for thought......

 

No, for two reasons. One, do kids are allowed to hunt and do they have to perform the same test??

And two, if I'm going to perform a test in front of some judges, of course I will do my best to past the test; but one thing is what I will do in front of people and another thing what I will do when no one is whatching.

 

Same thing as the test to pass and get a drivers license, my two cents.

 

Ernesto C

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

Just feel like chiming in again. I dont think this is a question for what weapon at what distance is possible or ethical. There are 1000 yard br shooters making groups that alot of hunters would be proud of at 200. Theres also Archers out there killing plenty of game around the 100 yard mark. It means much more who is behind the weapon rather than whether or not its a "normal range".

I just feel like the animal deserves a chance to use at least one of his senses to assure his survival. An animal has to make a mistake for you to get to the 100 yard line. The same cannot be said about the 1000 yard line.

I thoroughly enjoy the challenge of stalking and out witing the animal. Without that aspect of a hunt I just wouldnt enjoy it.

 

 

The one thing that always comes to mind for me when debates turn down the path of what You think is "Fair" vs what I think.... and that is: Do Mountain Lions care about fairness? Big cats kill far more deer a year than we do and they do it by whatever means they can. The "fair" card is what is not only the problem in hunting but in our country today. LIFE AIN'T FAIR!!!! The sooner we grow a set and realize this thread and our sport is not about 'Fair" the sooner we can get on to the real meaning. I enjoy the same challenges you do coues hunter and so does 308Nut and most of the folks that read here. I understand that you can't wrap your head around any other way of doing something, but your own way... That is fine. However it would benifit all of us if, as a group we could all attain a bit of balance in how we think and how we do... that is what this thread is about. Adaptation is the art of being a hunter and of being the prey... they adapt and we have to do the same. There is soo much more to hunting that the distance at which you squeeze a trigger or loose a string. The hunt starts long before the shot and ends long after.... but a clean ethical kill is center of it all! I'd prefir a standing or bedded shot, some love a running shot, we all strive for one shot!

 

Success is where preperation and good fortune collide. A great example of this is the number of public land monster Coues deer my hunting buddy (Jeremy) and I have stacked up in the last 1/2 dozen years (4 in the 120's, a couple in the one-teens, and a bucket load of 100"-112" bucks)... over 1/2 of which were taken at under 50 yds..... most of the rest at under 400yd ranges.... and of course a few in in the 500-700 yd range.... We love getting close, but we adapt... you only see most giant coues bucks once every 7-10 days, you have to adapt to his environment if you can't get closer then you let him walk or you perform. This is where it becomes SOOOO important that a hunter knows their limitations and calls the shot or calls it off. That is what defines us.... I have had many critters in the scope poised for a shot and then called it off. It is not about the distance or the weapon... it is ALL about living within the limitaions of ourselves and our gear!! Not about anyone judging you, or me, or Mike, or any others.... We all owe it to the critters we hunt to judge ourselves!

 

Happy New Years!

[308Nut]

Now this one should make you fall down and have convolutions, I promised myself I would get my first 4 digit yardage kill this year if it meant hiking in the opposite direction as the critter till the yardage was right. Why? Becaise I can and just plain want to. I have prided myself with close up harvests and I desire to pride myself of a very far away harvest. I have never even attempted a 1K harvest in the past because I didnt have the equipment or the profficiency to feel comfortable with that range. Now I have both.

M

I will up the ante I figure a 1000 yard rifle shot is equal to a 135 yard bow shot. Anyway the bubble on the bottom of my sight hits 135 yards and the degree angle i must cant my bow up is probably close to the cant of 1000 yard rifle shot. Close to a fair relationship. I just hope I will not be detected by my prey when I'm backing up for the shot. 135 yard bow shot! Why not?

Bob

 

Backing up for a shot seems a little rediculous. But, if that floats your boat then OK. Just dont expect others to respect your PRIDE.

 

My pride is about self respect as long as I stay within my personal limitations. As long as I have done that, I really could care less about others respect. The things I do, I do for me and nobody else. Is what I want to do set a bad example? Some may see it that way. I see it as if I stay within my personal boundries and make a clean harvest, then that is a great example.

 

M

[NOFX]

Now this one should make you fall down and have convolutions, I promised myself I would get my first 4 digit yardage kill this year if it meant hiking in the opposite direction as the critter till the yardage was right. Why? Becaise I can and just plain want to. I have prided myself with close up harvests and I desire to pride myself of a very far away harvest. I have never even attempted a 1K harvest in the past because I didnt have the equipment or the profficiency to feel comfortable with that range. Now I have both.

M

I will up the ante I figure a 1000 yard rifle shot is equal to a 135 yard bow shot. Anyway the bubble on the bottom of my sight hits 135 yards and the degree angle i must cant my bow up is probably close to the cant of 1000 yard rifle shot. Close to a fair relationship. I just hope I will not be detected by my prey when I'm backing up for the shot. 135 yard bow shot! Why not?

Bob

 

Backing up for a shot seems a little rediculous. But, if that floats your boat then OK. Just dont expect others to respect your PRIDE.

 

My pride is about self respect as long as I stay within my personal limitations. As long as I have done that, I really could care less about others respect. The things I do, I do for me and nobody else. Is what I want to do set a bad example? Some may see it that way. I see it as if I stay within my personal boundries and make a clean harvest, then that is a great example.

 

M

This respect you are showing your yourself, doesnt seem very respectful to the animal in the crosshairs. Would you back up if it was a 120ish buck? It just seems bizarre to me. But, like you stated, a clean harvest is a good example. I am by no means against LR shooting. We just have different views on what to be proud of. To each his own and good luck on your quest for a clean 1000 yd shot.

[308Nut]

This respect you are showing your yourself, doesnt seem very respectful to the animal in the crosshairs. Would you back up if it was a 120ish buck? It just seems bizarre to me. But, like you stated, a clean harvest is a good example. I am by no means against LR shooting. We just have different views on what to be proud of. To each his own and good luck on your quest for a clean 1000 yd shot.

 

Honestly, I wouldnt attemp a 1K shot on a coues buck of any size be it a spike or the next world record. Last year I had a self imposed limit of 700-750 depending on the lighting and wind. Fortunately I got my buck at 440. The super small size of the vital zone at 1K is out of my comfort and confidence zone. Dont get me wrong, I have made plenty of hits on an 7" target a 1K but I have had plenty of shots outside that zone. I am looking for a mature caribou size target with a 12" vital zone. I am ten times more profficent on a 12" target than a 7" target. It doesnt sound like much but for me at that range it is everything.

 

A moose or large caribou is what I am looking for. I dont worry about the energy either. The 300 grain 338 Berger bullets at the speeds I run them delivers over 2/3 the energy at 1K than that of a standard 30-06 load at point blank.

 

I really am not looking to just go out and fire away at the first critter I find at 1K. I am much more picky than that. Everything has to be right and I have to feel totally confident about the shot I am taking. Believe it or not, I have passed up shots around the 500 yard mark because I didnt feel right. Wind, light, mirage, etc.....

 

There have been occasions I have forced shots I was not comfortable with. The interesting thing is that all of those were under 200 yards. I guess there is a syndrome of "it is very close therefore my odds are good of making the shot even though its off hand or kneeling." I did that very thing in 08 and lost a medium sized mule deer. I hate admitting it but its the honest truth and a good learning experience. I had a buck at just under 200 yards, aimed (was fairly steady) and hit him a bit far back. I never recovered him. It has been said before, '$hit happens at 100 yards and $hit happens at 600 yards'. To me, it wasnt that '$hit happens" it is that I forced a shot I was not 100% steady on and I and the game paid the price. The lesson for me? I have to feel 100% confident about the shot I am taking or I dont take it. Even then I realize that be it 25 yards or 1K, something can go south. As long as I have stayed within my limits and feel confident in what I am about to do, I know that I have done all that I could do.

 

Respect for the animal? You could take a 10 yard bow shot and disrespect that animal if you dont feel right about the shot. You could take a 60 yard bow shot and totally respect that animal if the conditions are right and you are completely confident with the shot.

 

As long as a hunter stays within his limits, the game has been respected.

 

M

 

 

[tjhunt2]

However it would benifit all of us if, as a group we could all attain a bit of balance in how we think and how we do... that is what this thread is about. Adaptation is the art of being a hunter and of being the prey... they adapt and we have to do the same. There is soo much more to hunting that the distance at which you squeeze a trigger or loose a string. The hunt starts long before the shot and ends long after.... but a clean ethical kill is center of it all! I'd prefir a standing or bedded shot, some love a running shot, we all strive for one shot!

 

We all owe it to the critters we hunt to judge ourselves!

 

Happy New Years!

 

I have been watching this post and at times wanted to express some of my feelings but glad I was able to restrain myself. I probably would have made an a$$ out of myself just because I wasn't schooled on long range shooting. I am just amazed at all the new technology out there. I do have some thoughts and concerns about hunters shooting long distances but will keep them for around the camp fire. However,with that said, we all do have to stick together and I have slowly changed some of my ways of thinking over the years. You can teach an old dog new tricks.

 

Gino....a bit of balance in the way we think just became one of my favoriye quotes of all times. Well written and thought out.

 

An Old Dog,

TJ

 

[coues hunter]

I am going to agree that you are right when it comes down to many things. However, we will keep our own ideas of whether or not Hunting should be fair.

 

FAIR CHASE BY DEFINITION

"Fair Chase" is the original code of conduct first used by Boone and Crockett Club members in the early 1890s at a time when sportsmen emerged as the guardians over our game animals and birds. It was defined as the ethical, sportsmanlike, lawful pursuit, and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals.

[tjhunt2]

I am going to agree that you are right when it comes down to many things. However, we will keep our own ideas of whether or not Hunting should be fair.

 

FAIR CHASE BY DEFINITION

"Fair Chase" is the original code of conduct first used by Boone and Crockett Club members in the early 1890s at a time when sportsmen emerged as the guardians over our game animals and birds. It was defined as the ethical, sportsmanlike, lawful pursuit, and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals.

 

coues hunter.....I hear what you're saying and I think I know where you stand from reading your replies throughout this post. You have some good points and so does everyone else for that matter but you have to remember, FAIR CHASE BY DEFINITION, was written back when we didn't have all the new technology and gadgets. I'm sure you probably don't use any of them since they would give you an improper advantage. Just saying!

 

I don't know where I heard this but it must have came from a wise man: "as a group we could all attain a bit of balance in how we think and do"

 

TJ