It has been bugging me…

[.270]

i'm pretty sure what you just described is against the law. and i really doubt i'd have to worry about you ever doing something like that. and thinking up a buncha things that i sorta doubt would ever happen doesn't really add much to the discussion. if there's anything that isn't covered by a law, i don't know what it is. but again, if it's legal, it's ok with me. it really is. there's a lot of things that are legal that i would never do. just because i don't much care for that style of hunting. but if someone else does, i'm ok with it. most of the stuff that has been described here is peeves that folks have about others. and that's ok. and some of what has been described is a lack of experience. the more time people spend in the field, the better they get at things and they become a better sportsman. and there are a buncha jerks too, but i ain't talkin' about them. i'm refering to folks that are serious about it and try to adhere to the rules. we as sportsmen need to stick together, even if we disagree with some things that others do. one guy wrote on here that shooting something long range isn't hunting, it's shooting. i've read a couple of your posts about you spending days to get in place to make the shot. sounds a lot like hunting to me. i've done the same thing. i've read guys on here cussing people for shooting at running game, something that doesn't bother me in the least. but i'm really, really good at it. the biggest desert muley i ever shot was so far and running that i don't even like to tell folks how far because they won't believe me. amd it was a sitting offhand shot with my old .270. but i'd spent a couple years trying to get him and i shot anyway. and he rolled right over. and there was a lotta "luck" involved, but i still shot. i shot a coyote tuesday that scootin' along pretty good to at about 150 yards. tipped him right over too. and sometimes i miss. but i'll still shoot if i feel like it. and some folks don't agree with it. and that's ok. hunting styles are the least of our worries. anti hunters with lawyers and deep pockets and politicians on the payroll, are. ill sneak up and shoot em asleep if i can too. and anything in between. i've killed elk with a bow that were so close they blew snot on me. and i killed one last year that was 900 yards away. but not with bow. as long as folks ain't stupid, i'm on their side. and sportsmen need to stick together and not fight each other. disagree, sure. but we still all need to understand where the other guy is coming from and what he thinks about stuff. we need all the friends we can get. that's my opinion anyway. Lark.

[308Nut]

Just for the record Lark, I totally respect your opinion here as well as undertsand it. Do I agree with everything? No, but thats OK. Like you say, we can agree to dissagree.

 

Thank you for your insight and views. They are very thought provoking.

 

Michael

[bojangles]

it seems how hunters view hunting stems directly from their reason for taking up the sport. Trophy hunters sometimes will have a different view than meat hunters. Then there are what i would call "sport hunters" who may have a different reason to hunt than meat hunters and trophy hunters.

 

Trophy hunters are like dry-fly purists. They are the snobs of the sport; they make the cover of the magazines, yet don't often care to help a youngster or newbie on their way. A cocky, stingy lot, they are. (I'm not speaking exclusively, because there are exceptions, but i'm speaking genereally.) Many of those boys are not likely to help out someone who's inexperienced unless cameras are pointed their direction. They have high standards, and expect everyone else to hold to their line of thinking. But they also make the sport enviable. Their expertise is good for hunting, because it raises the bar, on everything from equipment that is manufactured to the quality of hunts themselves. Their success draws people to hunting, and gives us all some respect. Kind of like what lance armstrong did for cycling. By the time Lance won his 7th tour, everybody and their brother had a bike hanging in the garage. Lance was good for cycling, and good for bicycle manufacturers. Pro hunters much the same way. Professionalism demands a "space race" for our sport. Better gear. Better opportunity. Better hunting. It brings more respect.

 

These are the guys that poop their pants at the mere mention of the term "gutshot." And cow tags are embarrassing.

 

 

Meat hunters have a different view. Their camps are fuller. Their smiles are bigger. Their hearts are warmer. It's all about filling the tag and filling the freezer. No snobbery here. Youngsters and newbies welcome, lots of back slapping and hand shaking. No big egos, no thousand yards shots, no twenty five hundred dollar guns. Just grandpas '06, a pair of work boots, an army surplus jacket, and some remmington core-lokt ammo. They probly don't stray too far from the road, but they are brothers.

 

They're attitude is more along the lines of, "i don't owe that animal a thing, it's dinner on the hoof, and if it's brown, it's down.

 

 

Sport hunters are like wannabe trophy hunters. They do the best they can. Most of them don't have the time or money or talent of the elitest hunters. They're the average joe's who'd like a crack at a big boy at least once in their lifetime, but will settle for something "decent" today. They are the core of hunters, the middle class of us. They might be the guilty ones of taking a shot that's a hair too long, but if it pans out, there's no regrets. They probly carry a remmington 700 or winchester 70, topped with a leupold vx1 or vx2. Got a decent Ford truck and a quad; and if times are good a camper in tow. Probably wouldn't shoot a spike, but aren't necessarily holding out for a booner. Just something decent. Maybe a bit insecure about their trophy room, but maybe not. Maybe just as proud of the 140 class muley as Bobby-big-time's 210 stud from the Strip.

 

Sport hunters are the heart and soul of hunting. They are the consumer. They make

it happen.

 

There's a lot of opinions here. But there's a lot of objectives. Different objectives will make different standards. And that's not a bad thing. It's when you impose your standards on everyone else, that hipocrisy begins.

 

Year before last i took a 17 year old out to get his first mule deer. I got him his first elk 2 weeks earlier, and he was lucky enough to have a 22 muley tag in his pocket. A local, if i mentioned his name, 3/4 of the folks from the payson area would know him, tried to run us out of our hunting spot. Tried to intimidate me, and acted like i was from another planet and had invaded his territory. We hunted on. We got into some deer, but i couldn't get the kid to connect. The next morning local boy shot a forker from an adjoining ridge from where we were hunting. He had to be 20 years this kids senior, tried to run him off, and then went and shot a forkhorn. That's about as classy as gut shooting a cow elk a thousand yards away while standing in the back of your truck in the middle of a road.

 

Back when antelope were protected, my great grandfather's ranch was in forclosure. The great depression caught up with him and dinner was needed. On his way home, great gramps stopped his horse, pulled his thirty-ought six out of the scabbard, chambered a round, and brought home a speed goat for dinner. When he got home, his son asked him, "What would you have done if you had seen someone coming, especially an officer?" Great gramps replied, "I would have waved them around." His son questioned further, "And what would you have done if they didn't go around?" To which great gramps replied, "They had BETTER go around." And he meant it.

God had provided food for the supper table, and if it was the last antelope on earth, his kids were having dinner.

 

 

Your point of view is a reflection of your objective as a hunter.

 

I'm just sayin'.

[aztrophytakers]

The definition of"Trophy Hunter" written above is very ignorant and way off base. Most all my friends as well as myself could be classed as trophy hunters and I know of no crowd more about helping both the young and the old and perpetuating our beloved sport in a positive manner.

[JohnFriddle]

Legal IS ethical!!! How could anyone possibly legislate ethics anymore than they already have? I don't care what anyone says LR shooting has a great deal to do with luck!!! Even if you practice every day, and shoot well every day, you’re lucky if the conditions stay the same as you pull the trigger... As you squeeze the trigger, a major gust of wind picks up down range, something startles your buck and he moves, the scorpion that was crawling up your pant leg, that you didn't notice because you were staring through the scope at a trophy of a lifetime, stings you in the a$$... So you gut shoot your deer and you’re an unethical turd who don't deserve the tag in your pocket? We need to cut each other some slack, even guys who don't practice, guys that borrow equipment, guys that don't scout, guys that mostly, (or only) road hunt, guys who watch crappy hunting shows, out of state guys, guys who use quads, guys that hire guides, guys that don't hire guides, guys that don't leave camp when it's too cold and just stay in the trailer and drink beer, heck, even guys that spoon each other on cold nights... Every one of em' wants to hit what there aiming at, every one of them intends to kill with one shot... Even if they DID want to wound or mame for some sick reason, how do you prove they intended to...

 

As far as guides “letting” a guy take a shot, is it really up to them? All you can really do is tell your client what to expect, and hope he practices, and is honest with you about his capability... A man has got to know his limitations... You can ask him if he would like to shoot a little to make sure his gun is on, but if he says no what do you do? "Here is your five grand back now get the F#@! outta my camp!" I don't think so... He is a grown a$$ man and if he says he can shoot 500 yards, by gosh he can...

 

It sucks when a someone gets a tag and you don't, it's even worse when they aren't as serious as you are, thems the breaks... As long as we follow the rules we all can get tags... I wouldn't want it any other way...

 

[bojangles]

The definition of"Trophy Hunter" written above is very ignorant and way off base. Most all my friends as well as myself could be classed as trophy hunters and I know of no crowd more about helping both the young and the old and perpetuating our beloved sport in a positive manner.

 

 

I think you kind of missed the point of the whole thing. Each paragraph is a generalization of my observations. None of the paragraphs about the 3 types of hunters is true exclusively. It is my point of view, based upon actual re-occuring true life experiences in the field. I didn't give a lesson on different types of hunter's morality, just different types of hunters objectives in the field, and how that effects their own hunting standards.

 

I've only known a handful of trophy hunters who weren't snobs, and like i was saying, snobbery is good.

 

 

Brings me to mind the sound of a yelping dog.

[bobbyo]

Bojangles did a great job of pointing out the eliteism that is evident throughout this post, yet one point he failed to emphasis enough is how much more ethical us long distance trophy hunters are. Overall we are just better people. You see its ok for me to shoot at 700 yards, but not ok for you. If you were just educated in not being a slob you wouldn't be the disgrace to the hunting community that you are. If you were ethical you would limit your shots to 200 yards unless you do what I do. You owe it to the animal to spend $5000 on a gun, $3000 on optics and a grand on a tripod. Then you need to spend 1000 hours at the range. Don't give the excuse about working, that is for working slobs. To be really ethical the animal must be killed with one shot at over 500 yards minimum. When he is dead he really appreciates your ethics and benevolence for only shooting him once. Then you must have the specimen stuffed and placed on the wall where the animals thankfulness for your hunting values will be evident to all your guests at your next Pinot Noir party! So all you gut shooting slobs that are trying to do more than your abilities can handle, just get educated please! You are really giving hunting a bad name.

Bob

 

 

[Guest 300ultramag.]

Bojangles did a great job of pointing out the eliteism that is evident throughout this post, yet one point he failed to emphasis enough is how much more ethical us long distance trophy hunters are. Overall we are just better people. You see its ok for me to shoot at 700 yards, but not ok for you. If you were just educated in not being a slob you wouldn't be the disgrace to the hunting community that you are. If you were ethical you would limit your shots to 200 yards unless you do what I do. You owe it to the animal to spend $5000 on a gun, $3000 on optics and a grand on a tripod. Then you need to spend 1000 hours at the range. Don't give the excuse about working, that is for working slobs. To be really ethical the animal must be killed with one shot at over 500 yards minimum. When he is dead he really appreciates your ethics and benevolence for only shooting him once. Then you must have the specimen stuffed and placed on the wall where the animals thankfulness for your hunting values will be evident to all your guests at your next Pinot Noir party! So all you gut shooting slobs that are trying to do more than your abilities can handle, just get educated please! You are really giving hunting a bad name.

Bob

 

 

+1

 

 

[Tines]

Coues 'n' Sheep: You make a very good point about legendary archery hunters making great shots but who can you name on this site that has done that? My point is: you are comparing the elite with "Joe" hunter. A long range shot at living animals is not hunting, it’s shooting. Only wannabe sniper knuckleheads pull these stunts. There is no fair chase and no challenge at shots well over 400 yards. There is no chance for the animal at all. There is always a way to get closer and pursue the animal the way it was intended. Real hunters with patience and ability get closer.

 

I look at it like I look at sky busting for ducks and geese. Once in a while it works but most of time you just piss other people off.

 

 

I'll have to respectfully disagree with those comments....

[Guest 300ultramag.]

Im sorry gino... I agree with you.. but I cant get the visual out of my head.. of you sitting on the mountain side.. stomping your feet cursing every time you hear multiple shots go off.. gino: " did you hear that!!!! thats the 5th shot now! IN A ROW are you serious... 5 shots!" breaking saplings and manzanitas or what not*

 

Im with you people could make better use of their equipment.. im sure not everyone gets the same satisfaction of poking paper at 450 yds. but once you do it and you get good at it well its the same feeling as taking big game... (for me it is) im not that good..

 

 

i have hunting buddies that just show up on huntin day.they have no problem just showing up and pulling the trigger.. packing up and going home.. . i scout all year alone.. shoot my rifle.. locate game...etc.. I enjoy it.. some folks dont get the full squeeze from the juice.... theyd rather just buy it from the store..

 

agreed... if you cant go to the range and punch paper at 500.. dont go outt and do the guessing work at 500.. you could hurt someone.. lose your privleges..very well maybe kill someone<<<

 

heres a scary thought.. how many range finders out there only go out to 500-600 yds

 

everyone knows the big boy range finders are rather pricey.. and if your not that into shooting ur rifle you probably own a 500 yd range finder.. probably shouldnt shoot past that range!

[ThomC]

IMHO "ethics" is are a moving target and is a very subjective subject. Is it going to be ethical to shoot a deer with the soon to be developed scope with a built in computer that does all the calculations including reading the wind along the bullets path? I think it is all personal opinion.

 

As you can tell there are many different opinions concerning what is an ethical shot at a deer. Some people say that "it would be impossible to get any closer." Then how are you going to retreive that deer after it is dead? A question I always ask myself is: am I able to pack the deer out of there.

 

Another thing that will raise its ugly head is: if hunters get more efficient will less tags have to be allocated to maintain the deer population.

 

I can tell you that most of my non hunting friends think that just using a high power rifle is not sporting.

 

I think that at some point we will have to call it shooting and not hunting and shooting will be only a few tags allocated to properly equiped and qualified shooters.

 

So as we on this website (who are by my defination above average hunters) think about these questions, and what do we want to see in the future, must struggle with the word 'ethics" if our sport is to remain a sport.

[308Nut]

Some people say that "it would be impossible to get any closer." Then how are you going to retreive that deer after it is dead? A question I always ask myself is: am I able to pack the deer out of there.

 

It has more to do with getting a shot at a calm critter at a distance than a spooked one up close. Retrieval is another subject. Understand that when the majority are talking about not being able to get closer, they are refering to getting closer withot being detected by the critter.

 

[Guest Lobo]

IMO ethics are relative. Poachers are "ethical." They act according to their ethics. People who shoot "beyond their abilities" and wound/lose animals are acting according to their ethics - "it's ok there are more deer out there and something will eat them." I shot a buck once at a long range. But conditions were right (for me) and I haven't even tried it since. It's not my style - not my ethics. I prefer to chase them around in the brush like my dad did. I've shot several bucks running. But I also know my weapon. I've been shooting it for 30yrs. I've lost one deer that I made a bad shot on and one that other hunters found before I did - their ethics. If I express my opinions or preferences it doesn't mean that I'm passing judgement on someone elses ethics. At least it's not my intention. I once went hunting with a friend who was an archery fanatic. He took all kinds of arrows - to my 3. He threw many arrows at a buck until he finally hit it. The poor thing got rained on with arrows. His ethics. And way before that I took a friend hunting. He had an archery javelina tag and an old bow he "got running". He practiced one afternoon after scrounging up 3 arrows. I watched him get to 15 yds from a herd - miss 3 times and crawl across the herd to retrieve his arrows. Then he took his pick and shot one. His ethics. It is what it is man. We are who we are. I'm a Still Hunter.

[WOODSAZ]

I think all of these hunting situations have their place and mostly go to the persons preference and skill behind the gun or the bow. If you are dedicated to practice and taking shots that you feel comfortable with than more power to you, as said before crap happens. Crap happens at 10 yards and crap happens at 600 yards.

 

The thing that drives me crazy the most is hunters being overcome by competition and throwing lead. I know all of you have seen it on those late rifle bull hunts, and really any hunt. Guys knowing that someone else is seeing that critter and making irresposible choices because of it, many times disregarding ethics but more importantly safety.

 

My point is I truly believe that that competition brings out the worst in some people making them take those shots they really shouldnt.

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

Well for the record I only quietly shake my head after shot #3 in a row.... and never stomp or swear about it.

 

I think there is a lot to reflect about in the posts of this thread.

 

Points that I really think sum it up are these:

 

Educate

Practice

Stick together

Support all forms of Legal hunting

We all make mistakes

"Crap" happens to all of us

Jealousy & Envy have no place in hunting

Know your limits... and stay with in them

Know your equipment and stay with in its limitations

Please don't be a SLOB!

Do what works for YOU not what works for others

 

To those that have mentioned that an shot over 400 yards is (more or less) lazy, unethical, un-sporting, and so on... I respect your point view. However, you have no real grasp on some of the topography and vegetations that some great trophies live in. Many place I hunt require two people (a spotter and a ground pounder) just to find a downed animal over 200 yds away. Have you ever walked circles around a coues deer,bear, or even a large bull elk for for 30 minutes to an hour saying, "I know it is RIGHT here!"... If you can't find it dead at Point Blank Range, how can you get that close for a clean shot??? My point is there is a time and a place for getting close and there is a time for taking a shot at distance. To say there is only "one way" is a farce.

 

Lobo made a great point in my mind... He said that he is very comfortable making running shots. I am not comfortable with running shot nor will I try one. I am comfortable with shots under 600 yds if the conditions permit and I cannot get closer. We both have one common fear with the hunter that will only take a 300 yd (and in) shot... and that is, "what if?" Anything can go wrong at any distance! I have had coues jump my string at 14 yards!!! There are pleny of "what if's" out there and that is NOT what this thead is about... it is about making the call... being the adult and saying, "This is not good", "I'm not certain this is do-able from here", "I think we should try to get closer", "He wins today, we got beat"....etc. This is about being able to Man Up and know ones limitations! Knowing your TRUE limitaions solves the "ethics" question all in one instant.... and the proof will be in the outcome. Period...and we will still lose from time to time and battle within our own mind as to "did I choose wrong?"... but over all the woods will be better if we can just learn to say "NO!" once in a while. IMO anyhow.

 

Merry Christmas to you all!