It has been bugging me…

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

Well I am very happy that so many are also bugged by our ethics of today. Lark, Tony, and all the rest not one post in this thread (so far) has an untrue word in it... Well said by all, and Thank you. WE need to work harder to educate ourselves, and our hunting family/friends... WE need to discuss amongst ourselves... and WE need to spread morality and good ethics where ever we can... I believe we can close the ranks in doing so, IMO. I am a huge supporter of LR hunting tactics and practices, however, I also support common sense (and using common sense). We need to help each other find that middle of the road to avoid bouncing off the ditches. As mentioned once or twice in this thread there are several point that need addressed among hunters, and people in general. It is not only Hunters that are Slobs in the woods, but that is another Thread all together. What I mean by this on is that it is just One point which we MUST pay attention to… we don’t need more laws, or guidelines… we need education and discussion… civil and constructive discussion. We need to promote cognitive thought in our fellow hunters and promote high higher regard for these animals we hunt… They are meat, they are a renewable resource, they are the very fabric of our lives… without them all of this means nothing… they are the root of our passion… WE should regard them as such.

 

Again, Thank You All… and please continue to talk about this, it is important.

 

[azslim]

Legal But Not Ethical - hunting with a .25acp, it's a centerfire round so it is legal

 

Ethical But Not Legal - putting a wounded doe out of her misery because some pinhead gutshot her

 

 

These are a couple examples I give in my classes when we cover Hunter Responsibility and Ethics. Can't force them on people, just hope you get them started on the right track. I've noticed that respect seems to be the key, if you have respect for the animals you are hunting you tend to do what is necessary to ensure you take them cleanly. Have run into quite a few people that don't respect themselves let alone others and game. Would like to put a knot on their head and bend their rifle barrel around a tree.

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

In lieu of an angry phone call I got about one of my examples sounding like someone in particular… Sorry… I know a lot of people and hear a lot of hunting stories… none of the examples of poor ethics were of people close to me. However, I too, am working each year on refining my personal ethics and becoming a better hunter, and encourage you all to do the same. Sorry if anyone wishes to take what was written in my first post as an accusation. This Thread is meant to be food for thought not a finger pointing.

[azslim]

if you throw a rock into a pack of dogs the one that yelps is the one that got hit.......

 

[Browning'sCustomMeat]

Great topic and point Gino. Agree 100000000000000000000000000000%

 

I agree with you too Lark.

 

I personally don't shoot comfortably past 450, but have......ONCE!

 

Jim, Love your videos keep sharing them.

 

Mike....why ain't you chiming in?

[COUESAZ]

Get lead into it and slow it down for a good second shot.

 

OK someone had to say something wrong HAHAHAHA

 

 

I will have to agree with Lark on this one.

[308Nut]

Mike....why ain't you chiming in?

 

The temptation is too much for me to resist.

 

As a dedicated LR shooter/competitor/hunter as well as an advocate of SKILLED long range huntting, I can honestly say I agree with the core and foundation of what you are saying Gino.

 

Bottom line, if you cant make a first round hit on a kill zone sized target at a given range in practice, and then go out and disrespect a trophy animal by shooting at it at those ranges or beyond, you are a complete and true idiot, unethical bastard. Lark, I know you hate that word (ethical, as do I hate it). It is like the word luck. I dont belive in luck but sometimes there is no other word to describe what just happened. Maybe I should use the word irresponsible in lieu of unethical.

 

If you feel hurt or offended by that statement, you probably are one of those who takes shots you KNOW you should not and have no buisness taking and I would hope the sting would cause you to re-think your approach to long range hunting.

 

It takes years for a bull elk or buck to reach maturity. He survives year after year dodging hunters, predators, winters, competes for food and water for survival, fights for the right to pass on his genes, braves deep steep canyons, etc etc.......all to be shot at and likely wounded and lost by an idiot who bought a ****** rifle and ****** scope or whatever money hungry retailers make you believe in so they can earn your money. THESE ANIMALS DESERVE OUR RESPECT!!!!!!! Television shows are made just for appealing to hunters by shooting game at long range so they can sell you the latest and greatest rifle and scope that will turn you into a 1000 yard killer overnight. The truth is, whether its a old Reminton 788 in 7mm08 or the newest baddest 7mm, 300 RUM, 30-378 338 Lapua or what have you, it takes time, energy, money, burned out barrels and lots and lots of frustration to become a clean LR killer. I admit I use to have that mentality. Fortunately, I cleanly missed a small buck at 550 yards and that helped me to realize that there was more to this than I thought and I decided it would never happen agian by learning what I had to and practiced till my trigger finger fell off. That does not make me infallable, but the odds of clean LR kills are stacked in my favor.

 

As far as this thread being fuel for the anti hunters, it is a sad reality. Unfortunately it is these irresponsible shooters out there that are fueling the fire. Openly and honestly talking about it may help shame and motivate even just one of these hunters to step up and learn how to be profficient with his weapon. In the end, a few trophies may be harvested cleanly and respectfully.

 

Ethics are a touchy subject espescially with LR hunters. Like I said, maybe I and we, should use the words responsible and irresponsible. True LR hunters take pride in their abilities and are not ashamed to do what they do even in the face of ridicule from 'ethical' holyer than thou hunters who sleep better at night by telling us that we are not hunters at all and that we are nothing more than shooters. Which may be true to SOME extent, but I forget about who made the remarks or even the exact remarks after a few days. I will enjoy my trophies and never forget the memories of the hunt for the rest of my life! By whatever skills I used to collect them. However, (and I might get pitchforked for this) shooting beyond your abilities is irresponsible and wrong. Legal yes, right he!! no. Laws are black and white but principals are worth way more. The law does not prohibit an inexperienced shooter from taking a shot he cant make but the 'principals' of resposibility do. The law in AZ is you are not to discharge a firearm within 1/4 mile (440 yards) of an occupied building. This is a black and white law. If you are on a ridge 1/2 mile away from an occupied house and the buck of your dreams steps out 441 yards from the house (439 yards from you) dead straight between the line of your rifle and the house, do you take that shot? Is it legal? Is it morally wrong? Is it unethical? Is it irresponsible? If a stray bullet from your rifle kills a home occupant are you off the hook because the black and white law was not broken? Can you be prosocuted? Are you criminally negligent? Can I see a show of hands who here would take that shot..............A hunter or shooter who has good morals, sound principals, is responsible and has respect for life and property would not take that shot no matter how big a buck it is. Legal? Yes. Ethical? You decide.

 

In my opinion, in the context of the illustration above, the mentality of 'if it is legal then it is ethical' is faulty thinking and reasoning. Unsafe actions that are legal is unethical. At least in my opinion.

 

I openly admit I am guilty of not even attempting to get closer even when I know I could if the game is within my profficiency zone. I just lay down, set up and take the shot. I know I should always try to get as close as possible. I have no excuse.

 

I appreciate that many or even most memebers here actually care about being responsible. Otherwise I would not hang out here.

 

Unfortunately, I have had a few wounded losses (that were not vermin) over the years. I feel horrible about it and dont like talking about it. I say this to be open and fair. Also to illustrate that bad shots or losses happen even at short range. For the record, all of my losses were shot at 175 yards or less. I have not pulled the trigger on a big game animal between 175 and 763 yards that was not collected. I felt comfortable with each and every shot. I even passed up a black bear one day at 500 yards because I was not comfortable with the wind. When I was younger and more irresposible, I have taken hail marry shots. Shots I was not comfortable with. I always felt guilty for not showing the game the respect they deserve. This guilt is what led me into learning and practicing as well as attaing the right gear.

 

Its an ugly subject at times. Lets not hide from it. Lets do what we can to help others see the principals and value of respect and resposibility and even accountability. Once we help them to see the value of those things, then we can help them on their shooting abilities. We have to help them see the values first before we help them on the shooting, then they will become dedicated on their own.

 

I realize that I didnt really cover anything new here from what Gino already stated. This is just from another perspective.

 

I will make no appologies for the statements above. I feel very stongly about the subject and stand by my comments.

 

M

[Blade53]

if you throw a rock into a pack of dogs the one that yelps is the one that got hit.......

 

 

Good quote, im going ta use this one at work!!!

[cmc]

Maybe we should promote the advocacy of how close can you shoot a coues deer? Appears it's far easier to shoot and kill a trophy coues deer with a rifle at 600yds, than at 60yds. We hear proven cases here and countless other sites of so many skilled marksmen that can kill a trophy coues deer at over 600yds, with a rifle. Ok how many routinely do that at 60yds?

 

Not trying to be a smart **** here but looking at it that previous posts and threads over the years most stand proud of their accomplishments of taking a great dear at far reaching distances? How proud would you be to sneak into 60yds on that same deer and kill it with that rifle? If your up for challenging yourself each year, change it up and try testing yourself on getting close. Rather then saying next year I'll see if I can shoot 700yds, I say try taking yards off each year. But what fun would that be right?

[desertyankee]

This is a fine, thought-provoking thread. As the guy on the 22-yard end of the spectrum, I'd quietly cheer to see a lot of the technology used in modern hunting just go away. But-- that's just me, and I try hard to take a "live and let live" outlook in matters of hunting. However, some things are just plain wasteful and cruel, like not even hiking over to see the effects of your shooting; like not being familiar with your rifle; like shooting past someone who's closer than you when you're both glassing the same game; and on and on.

 

I agree that the stuff we see on DVD's and the Internet is a big part of the problem. "Antler porn" is a well-deserved name--it reduces magnificent, living animals to a one-dimensional set of measurements like antler score, or the range it was shot at. As with real pornography, some guys get hooked on this stuff and never mature their way out of it; thankfully, I believe that most of us come to realize that there's a lot more to hunting, and to life, than just looking for big racks.

 

We each have our own definition of a trophy; we each hunt according to our own ethical standards; and we all have a duty to continually examine and refine these as we mature. "Hunter education" is a lifelong pursuit.

[WHT_MTNMAN]

You know..... I've killed Coues at 32 yards with a bow, and a few from 80-650 with a rifle. The buck I killed at 650 (one shot btw) was cool, BUT man 32 yards with a bow spot and stalk is freakin sweet. My goal has been to shoot a Coues while it is still in its bed with my bow, then I know I've succeded as a hunter. One of these days.

[slopoke36]

Just because we are able and have the equipment doesn't mean we should be taking shots over 300 yards. Leave the LR shooting to the range or go find a prairie dog town. Show your true hunting skills by getting within 300 yards. This also applies to the bowhunter who takes a 70 yard shot.

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

Just because we are able and have the equipment doesn't mean we should be taking shots over 300 yards. Leave the LR shooting to the range or go find a prairie dog town. Show your true hunting skills by getting within 300 yards. This also applies to the bowhunter who takes a 70 yard shot.

 

I'll have to disagree... there is a time and place for just about all types and styles of hunting. Art Young and Saxon Pope and Fred Bear harvested many, many trophy animals at 100+ yds with a stick and string. Three of the most acclaimed archery hunters of all time and they were gods with bows in their hands… an extension of their arms… they practiced, and practiced, and practiced. There are many places that I have hunted where you shoot it from right HERE or you simply just don’t shoot… it does not, however, happen every time. I love getting close… my closest archery coues was 12 yds. and my furthest rifle kill is my lion this year at 525… I can tell you I am far more proud of the 12 yarder, but would do the 525 yarder without a doubt a 100 times again if the chance arose. I do think that with each 100 yards past 300 you have to take on a bunch more responsibility and be able to make the call: Shoot or Don’t Shoot. Wind, rest, shooter, can we get closer… all things that must be weighed and measured. I can think of several different ways that I have hunted in different environments with a bow or a rifle and they are all AWESOME! They are all hunting and they all test a different part of me as a hunter. There has never been a type of hunting I have done that I would not do again… there are some methods that I prefer to others. I am sure we each have our own favorite… just like we have a favorite rifle. You don’t suppose we would have a need for different calibers of rifle if we all hunted the same way? I love my Winchester 3030… I killed my first elk with it at about a 125 yds… but today I usually grab my 300 wby mag…. and mostly for the BC and the ability to buck a little wind. I learned a lot about a “little” wind back when I used to carry my model 700, 22-250 for coues…. Anything over 250 had drift in a breeze… so I hung her up and the rest is history. But there are places and times that I’d not hesitate to bust out my ol’ 3030 for coues if the time and place warranted it. It is all hunting… it is all good hunting… but where we lose our way is when we think that there is only one way. Having the proper equipment is a must (IMHO) if you intend to ethically break the 400 yd mark… Even if you zero a factory loaded 180 gr Barnes X out of 300 Wby @ 300yds you have hold over to center punch a bull elk… how big is the chest on that bull? Well a big mature bull should be 30” at the withers… a rag horn obviously much less. How much do we hold over? What are we judging our inches against? All good questions. I have done the “hold over” method… I’ve won and lost… but always recovered. But it was ethically not my best choice, so that is why I share my thoughts about it with you. The “dial-up” method of the new scopes is awesome and repeatable…. But many, many hours go into that and being proficient requires all the point put forth by 308Nut ( Nice post Mike!)… What this post is about is thinking about what we do before we do it… about supporting and educating our future hunters and those new to the outdoors. It is not about pointing fingers, cuz I can point a few at myself (and if you can’t your lying to yourself)…. It is about bettering our community one better choice at a time. Thanks to all the posters you guys rock!

 

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!

[slopoke36]

Coues 'n' Sheep: You make a very good point about legendary archery hunters making great shots but who can you name on this site that has done that? My point is: you are comparing the elite with "Joe" hunter. A long range shot at living animals is not hunting, it’s shooting. Only wannabe sniper knuckleheads pull these stunts. There is no fair chase and no challenge at shots well over 400 yards. There is no chance for the animal at all. There is always a way to get closer and pursue the animal the way it was intended. Real hunters with patience and ability get closer.

 

I look at it like I look at sky busting for ducks and geese. Once in a while it works but most of time you just piss other people off.

 

[Ernesto C]

Man this is another big reason why I love this site and its people on it!

 

If you give me a race car that doesn't mean I will win the race.

If you give me a pair a boxing gloves that doesn't mean I will be the champion on the fight!

If you give me a pair running shoes that doesn't mean I will win the marathon.

 

It takes preparacion, it takes education, it takes practice and then more education more preparation and then practice and more practice to see what are you capable to do.

If you can do something that doesn't mean I can do it too or viceversa, it takes what I just said before it takes experience and a lot more. If the ones that know do not teach that ones that don't know ....where are we going? Where hunting is going to end up?

 

I don't agree with "if it is legal is ethical". - Can I shoot a big game animal in the stomach in purpose? Is not illegal but it is ethical?

 

Ernesto C