200"mulie Report post Posted October 29, 2010 here is a short video i found that might help some of you Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slopoke36 Report post Posted October 29, 2010 Does anyone know what the game department says about this prop? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slopoke36 Report post Posted October 29, 2010 slopoke36, Thanks for asking the questions... no one should follow blindly without searching out answers for themselves! As I see it, you are spot-on with part of your last statement, and a little off-base with another part: We do not have the right to hunt currently - we are allowed the privilege to hunt via laws and rules established by the legislature, the AZGF Commission, and the AZGF Department. We do not have the constitutionally protected "right" to hunt. Prop 109 will elevate our privilege to a right, which will make it harder to take away in the future. So I agree with the second part of your statement: Prop 109 is a proactive, "just in case" measure! The anti's did not put anything on the ballot this year trying to take away our ability to hunt. However, they have before, and they will again! In addition, they work tirelessly behind the scenes, at commission meetings, and via lawsuits to prevent sportsmen access, limit our influence, stop us from hunting, shorten our seasons, etc. Prop 109 will help ensure that hunting is always considered a priority for wildlife management, not some hair-brained scheme developed by the anti's. One more thing... the lawmakers are not forcing your hand. The NRA and every major conservation/sportsmen's organization in the state helped to get this on the ballot. They just used the legislative process to get it there. Don't believe the opponents. This was not developed by politicians and this will not benefit politicians. This was developed by sportsmen and it will benefit sportsmen, and by protecting the current system of scientifically-based wildlife management, it will benefit EVERY wildlife species and EVERY resident of our state. VOTE YES ON PROP 109!! I understand what you are saying. For the most part I agree and will be voting yes as well. I have one question that I have asked before. You mentioned the NRA and everyone else but what about the game department. What do they say? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EBB Report post Posted October 29, 2010 Does anyone know what the game department says about this prop? As State Employees the Game and Fish Department are precluded (By Law) from having any participation in an election. It would be illegal for the Dept to issue any opinion officially. That is why the Commission came out in favor. They are not employees of the Dept. EBB Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrentSwanson Report post Posted October 29, 2010 Just as ERB said, the current Department and it's current emplyees aren't allowed to voice their opinions so we don't really know what they think. There is a link on the home page of AZGFD describing this in detail, along with an article explaining the Commission's support. (http://www.azgfd.gov/inside_azgfd/righttohunt.shtml) What we do know is that the current Commission is in favor of it, and here is a list of former commissioners and former AZGFD employees who are in favor of it (from www.CommissionersYesOn109.com): * Arizona Game and Fish Commission, the body responsible for regulation and enforcement of Arizona’s wildlife statutes * Former Game & Fish Commissioners John Gisi (1982-1983) Larry Adams (1984-1989) Gordon Whiting (1988-1993) Larry Taylor (1989-1994) Naomi Johnson (1992-1997) Dennis Manning (1997-2002) Bill Berlat (1998-2000) Joe Carter (1999-2004) W. Hays Gilstrap (1999-2005) Sue Chilton (2000-2005) Joe Melton (2001-2006) * Retired Game & Fish Employees Kurt Bahti - Game Manager Supervisor Tom Britt - Reg. 2 Supervisor Jim de Vos - Chief of Research Jim Hinkle - Big Game Supervisor Ray Lee - Big Game Supervisor Wesley Martin - Reg. 3 Supervisor John Millican - Wildlife Manager Kelly Neal - Reg. 6 Suspervisor Tim Pender - Wildlife Manager Gerry Perry - Reg. 5 Supervisor Richard Remington - Reg. 1 & 4 Supervisor Randy Smith Wildlife Manager Supervisor Bob Weaver - Chief of Habitat Branch In addition, here is the list of other supporters: (Please note the last organization listed... none other than CouesWhitetail.com!!) National Rifle Association, an organization dedicated to preserving our right to bear arms, hunt and fish Arizona Sportsmen for Wildlife, an organization dedicated to advocacy on behalf of wildlife and sportsmen National Shooting Sports Foundation, an organization whose mission is to promote, protect and preserve hunting and the shooting sports. View endorsements HERE. Arizona State Rifle and Pistol Association Governor Jan Brewer Senator John McCain Congressman John Shadegg Congressman Jeff Flake, "Arizonans enjoy a rich tradition of fishing and hunting, and Proposition 109 will protect that tradition for generations to come. I'm proud to support Proposition 109." Congressman Trent Franks Grant Woods, former Arizona Attorney General Bob Corbin, Former Arizona Attorney General Paul Gosar, Republican Candidate for Congressional District 1 Ben Quayle, Republican Candidate for Congressional District 3 David Schweikert, Republican Candidate for Congressional District 5 Jesse Kelly, Republican Candidate for Congressional District 8 Doug Ducey, Republican Candidate for State Treasurer Representative Jerry Weiers and 36 other members of the Arizona House of Representatives who voted for Prop 109 Senator John Nelson and 17 other members of the Arizona Senate who voted for Prop 109 Arizona Police Association, representing more than 10,000 rank and file officers throughout Arizona Arizona Citizens Defense League Arizona Farm Bureau Professional Fire Fighters Association Arizona Sportsmen for Wildlife Conservation, an organization dedicated to educating the public on issues of importance to wildlife and funding enhancement of wildlife habitat projects Arizona Chapters of Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, a national organization dedicated to ensuring the future of elk, other wildlife and their habitat. Mule Deer Foundation, a national organization working to ensure the conservation of mule deer and black-tailed deer and their habitat. Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society, an organization dedicated to maintenance and enhancement of Arizona’s desert sheep populations Arizona Deer Association, an organization dedicated to conservation and enhancement of Arizona’s deer populations Arizona Antelope Foundation, an organization dedicated to the conservation of Arizona’s pronghorn antelope herds Arizona Elk Society, an organization dedicated to ensuring that Arizona’s elk populations are maintained and flourish Arizona Chapter of National Wild Turkey Federation, with several chapters throughout the state the NWTF is dedicated to reintroduction and conservation of Arizona’s various species of turkeys Anglers United, an organization that promotes kids fishing opportunities and the development of fishing habitat throughout the state Arizona Flycasters Club, an organization known for its many conservation projects including reintroduction of the Apache Trout Arizona Wildlife Federation, an organization founded to take politics out of wildlife and habitat management and to promote the management of Arizona resources on a scientific basis Yuma Valley Rod and Gun Club, an organization dedicated to stewardship of the land and promotion of wildlife, wildlife habitat and the traditions that accompany it. Mohave Sportsman Club, a family-oriented organization that promotes all shooting sports, youth marksmanship programs and hunter education classes Southeastern Arizona Sportsmen’s Club, an organization dedicated to · conservation of wildlife habitat and natural resources, defending the Second Amendment and educating the public on important issues concerning wildlife Safari Club International, and SCI Phoenix and Arizona Chapters, organizations dedicated to making a contribution to Arizona’s wildlife conservation effort, provide outdoor experience for youth, educate the public and protect hunting and fishing Arizona Trappers Association, an organization dedicated to the use of ethical and humane methods of take for managing wildlife populations Arizona Bowhunters Association, an organization whose mission is to foster, perpetuate and expand bowhunting and bowhunting ethics in Arizona Outdoor Experience 4 All, an organization dedicated to providing outdoor experiences for kids of all ages, especially those who have a life threatening illness Mogollon Sporting Association, organized to enhance wildlife, environment, education and the economy in the Mogollon Rim Country. Navajo Chapter, Arizona Sportsmen for Wildlife Outdoor Heritage Arizona White Mountain Lakes Foundation CouesWhitetail.com, a family-friendly online hunting community dedicated to promoting ethical hunting and providing a way for hunters to share their hunting experiences George Reiners, Board member Yuma Valley Rod and Gun Club David Power, Board member Yuma Valley Rod and Gun Club Doug Beach, President Yuma Valley Rod and Gun Club John Roche, Yuma Valley Rod and Gun Club Eric Johnson, Yuma Valley Rod and Gun Club Jerry Gotchie, Treasurer Yuma Valley Rod and Gun Club Jim McMillin Frank Gaumer Paul Frizane, Life Member NRA Danny Pryber, Yuma Valley Rod and Gun Club David Parrish, Yuma Valley Rod and Gun Club Todd R Vaaler, Board Member Archery Trade Association Dennis Florence, Life Member Yuma Valley Rod and Gun Club Don Martin, Mohave Sportsman Club, Govt Liaison Now, here is the list of opponents: (Do you see any true conservation organizations on this list???) Animal Defense League of Arizona Sierra Club - Grand Canyon Chapter The Humane Society of the United States Animal Law Coalition Animal Legal Defense Fund Animalia Latina Arizona AFL-CIO Arizona Alliance for Retired Americans Arizona League of Conservation Voters Arizona Wilderness Coalition Arizona Zoological Society (The Phoenix Zoo) Citizens in Charge Coalition for Sonoran Desert Protection Grand Canyon Wildlands Council Grand Canyon Wolf Recovery Project Great Dane Rescue of AZ Alliance Greyhound Network News Humane Society Veterinary Medical Association Humane Voters of Arizona League of Conservation Voters Education Fund National InterFaith Council inc. National Urban Wildlife Coalition Prescott Area Animal Lifesavers Semiconductors Sky Island Alliance Supporting & Promoting Ethics for the Animal Kingdom The Humane Society of Southern Arizona Tucson Dog Protection White Mountain Conservation League World Society for the Protection of Animals VOTE YES ON PROP 109!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slopoke36 Report post Posted October 29, 2010 Right on thanks guys for the information that clears up a lot of questions I have. Thank you for the link Trentswanson! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
youngbuck Report post Posted October 29, 2010 All good info. I'll admit I do know the process of law changes that effect hunting/fishing completely. The ONLY thing that bothers me is that "EXCLUSIVE AUTHORITY TO ENACT LAWS TO REGULATE THE MANNER, METHODS OR SEASONS FOR HUNTING, FISHING AND HARVESTING WILDLIFE IS VESTED IN THE LEGISLATURE, WHICH MAY DELEGATE RULE MAKING AUTHORITY TO A GAME AND FISH COMMISSION" How do I know the legeslature will be on my side or always delegate rule making to the GF. I'm playing a little devils advocate here but lets say this passes. 10 years from now the mexican grey wolf (maybe not a good example since it is federally protected) is destroying wildlife heards and are over populating. We as hunters decide smoething needs to be done. The legislature could be filled with a bunch of PETA supporters who decide no, no hunting of wolves would be permitted. I don't like of hypothetical examples, and there are a lot of ifs in that argument. I just dont know how much business the legislature should have in deciding how I am allowed to hunt and fish. I do understand, as of now, the legislature will delegate the rule making to G&F. What happens one day they decide they dont want to? Will sportsmen have a way to challange what we might concider poor wildlife management decisions. I do think the AZGFD has a lot of good information they use to make management decisions. I feel like the AZGFD has a better understanding of that information than your average outdoorsman. I also feel like the average outdoorsman has a better understanding of wildlife management tactics than the legislature. I dont want a bunch of bunny huggers to find there way into the legislature and decide that slingshots are the only "reasonable" way to harvent game. I find it hard to believe that I will ever side side with PETA on an issue of hunting, and dont plan on it on 109. I would just like a better understanding of why the power is given to the legislature. Who has the power of rule making and law changes now? I hope my post did not come off as ignorant. I fele like the major argumet on decideing yes or no is "look who is on whos side". While that is probaly enough I want to know what can change for the worse if it passes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outdoor Writer Report post Posted October 29, 2010 Who has the power of rule making and law changes now? The AZ Legislature is responsible for the LAWS as it has been for decades. Those laws are incorporated in Title 17, and within those laws, the AZ Legislature may designate the task of RULE making to the AZ G&F commission. This also has been effect for decades. The rule making is what sets seasons, permit numbers, etc. And when G&F wants a LAW changesd, it MUST do so through the legislature. In other words, as it now stands, the legislature already has the power to do everything you're concerned about. In fact, they could abolish the G&F department tomorrow, if they so choose to do. NOTHING about the above will change with the passage of 109; it will merely strenghten that by making it part of the AZ Constitution. Now here is what 109 will do; it will make it much harder for any animal-rights group to change anything in regards to wildlife management by bringing an initiative to the ballot for a vote by the general public, as it did with the leghold traps. As it is now, a ballot measure to chnage a wildlife-related law simply requires 153,365 signatures and a majority vote, i.e. 51%, but with Prop 109 in place as part of the state Constitution, getting a initiative on the ballot to amend the Constitution would require 230,047 signatures. That is a MUCH tougher hill to climb and obviously why the HSUS, Sierra Club and other AR types are against passage of 109. I suggest that anyone who is unfamiliar with the way it now is, take a look at TITLE 17. Especially read the contents of the sections noted below. Chapter 2 GAME AND FISH DEPARTMENT AND GAME AND FISH COMMISSION Article 1 Membership 17-201 Game and fish department and game and fish commission members; appointment; removal; meetings 17-202 Arizona game and fish commission appointment recommendation board Article 2 Director and Employees 17-211 Director; selection; removal; powers and duties; employees 17-212 Director's seal; authentication of records 17-213 Prohibition on political activity 17-214 Arizona game and fish department reserve; members; powers and duties; compensation Article 3 Powers and Duties 17-231 General powers and duties of the commission Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
youngbuck Report post Posted October 29, 2010 Thanks Tony, I was actually hoping you would chime in to my response. You have a good understanding of legalities and ways laws are written. Looks like a no brainer to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outdoor Writer Report post Posted October 29, 2010 Vote Yes on Prop 109 HELP PROTECT AND PRESERVE YOUR RIGHT TO HUNT AND FISH The National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF), the trade association for the firearms, ammunition, hunting and recreational shooting sports industry, continues to urge you to VOTE YES on PROP 109. The list of supporters of Prop 109 continues to grow. Governor Jan Brewer, Senator John McCain, Representatives Trent Franks, John Shadegg and Jeff Flake all have stated their support for the passage of Prop 109 to protect the tradition of fishing and hunting in Arizona for generations to come. An article today, talks about the number of current commissioners on the Arizona Game and Fish Commission, not to mention 11 former ones, which have unequivocally stated that they also support Prop 109. These are the exact individuals that the state of Arizona trusts to manage Arizona’s wildlife. Please visit the website that has been set-up by Game and Fish commissioners to educate Arizona voters and also to correct some of the myths about Prop 109. As you already know, Prop 109 is the number one priority for the Humane Society of the United States. They have continued to spend enormous amounts of money to defeat Prop 109. In the last two weeks, anti-hunting groups (HSUS included) have spent more than $700,000 to oppose Prop 109. Proposition 109, which would guarantee your right to hunt and fish in Arizona will be on the ballot Tuesday. Prop 109 is specifically written to pre-empt anti-hunting groups from attempting to restrict the right of Arizonans to hunt and fish and that is why they HSUS and others oppose it. The language is very simple and we encourage you to learn more at http://www.nraila.org/yeson109. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimmer Negamanee Report post Posted October 30, 2010 I understand the sentiment behind Prop 109. Nobody wants the citizenry whipped into a frenzy by anti-hunting groups and duped into making emotional wildlife management decisions based upon how “cute” the species is. We already have harmful laws like that at both the federal and state level (e.g. the federal feral horse and burro act and the mountain lion hunting ban in California). Management by referendum is generally not good management. But with that said, I have some reservations about this Constitutional Amendment. First, it requires us to trust our legislature which already has a habit of sweeping funds out of voter approved pots of money like the Heritage Fund. They’ve also threatened to take G&F money in the past and may do so in the future. Only an uproar kept them from doing so. The most recent example is also a legislature referred initiative to take ALL the money from Land Conservation Fund via Prop 301. Even if you trust the current legislature maybe in 25 years the legislature will not be so friendly to hunting and fishing. Second, I’m not sure what Subsection C is for. It says “Lawful public hunting and fishing shall be a preferred means of managing and controlling wildlife.” Does that mean we should manage species that we are trying to recover by hunting them? Or maybe it’s meant to protect against a less hunting and fishing friendly legislature future. If so, that’s probably good. I guess in the end I wish Prop 109 simply kept wildlife decisions out of the voting booth in a more straightforward way. But maybe it’s good enough. Don’t get me wrong, the mere fact that the HSUS opposes Prop 109 is probably a good enough reason to vote for it. I’m just saying that I’m not without concerns. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Outdoor Writer Report post Posted October 30, 2010 First, it requires us to trust our legislature which already has a habit of sweeping funds out of voter approved pots of money like the Heritage Fund. They’ve also threatened to take G&F money in the past and may do so in the future. Only an uproar kept them from doing so. The most recent example is also a legislature referred initiative to take ALL the money from Land Conservation Fund via Prop 301. Even if you trust the current legislature maybe in 25 years the legislature will not be so friendly to hunting and fishing. From my message above: In other words, as it now stands, the legislature already has the power to do everything you're concerned about. In fact, they could abolish the G&F department tomorrow, if they so choose to do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
archerycrazy Report post Posted October 31, 2010 Try this method to help you decide how to vote on this after you've done your research. Try the "TRUST METER" Which do you trust most? Legislature or HSUS G&F Commission or HSUS Legislature or Animal Defense League G&F Commission or Animal Defense League Legislature or Sierra Club G&F Commission or Sierra Club Legislature or PETA G&F Commission or PETA The list could go on and on. Prop 109 is not perfect. Nothing is. But it provides better protection than we have now. Finally who do you trust more, Yourself or those listed on the right. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
