Unit 32

[azdave]

Well, I thought I would chime in here even though I don't hunt 32 or know anything about the Mercer fiasco. I do personally know ranchers on the east side of the Galiuro Mtn.'s though, and one in particular is Mike Ware, of the Ware Ranch. In the mid 90's he locked gates on his deeded property, forcing the forest Service to make several miles of access roads around his. I thought it was absolute bullshit that a rancher who owned a couple hundred acres could cut off the public from tens of thousands of acres---and one day I ran into him in Safford and nicely told him this. He ran through a list of things that happened on his property over the last several hunts, with the most recent thing being a group of hunters coming in day before the season, and jumping out of there truck and all peeing right there in front of his wife and child, who were out in front of the house (the road went right in front of their ranch), beer cans fell out of the cab and they didn't even pick them up. He is a Graham Co. sheriffs Deputy, and although the most mild mannered and fair cop I ever met, if he had been home, I would love to have watched.

He said that the family welcomed hunters for decades because they were respectful of private property and friendly, but in recent years a small number have gone quite the opposite, and repairing vandalism of windmills and other things right after a hunt was getting old.

I lived in that area for about 4 years, but heard the same types of things from several ranchers. The 0-BAR-0 Ranch (unit 31) did something very similar to the above ranch. (the new road is still on private land, but stays far away from the ranch house, and G&F and F.S. paid for it to maintain access)

Maybe you guys should get together with G&F and F.S. about a route around the deeded property--I have heard that environmental impact assessments recently have made this not so easy, but its worth a try.

I do believe that as long as there is OTHER access to an area, even if it does take you a longer, further route, they can close access.

I AM NOT SAYING IT IS ALWAYS DONE LEGALLY OR RIGHTFULLY--AND ACTION SHOULD BE TAKEN IN THOSE CASES!! A rancher should have to show good cause to lock ANYTHING/DENY ACCESS before he does it.

 

 

Back in the late 80's and early 90's I made several calls to G&F protesting ranchers blocking roads and locking gates--sometimes it worked, sometimes not.

I now own acreage in the mtn.'s, and can tell you that ALOT of people, not saying they are all hunters, but some are, have NO respect for for other peoples property--It would help if US HUNTERS helped police the bad ones.

 

anyways, MY 2 CENTS

[ghost hunter]

azdave,

 

I never bothered to ask Mike why he locked up the ranch, but if that happened, I'm sure he got all fired up.

 

I think that your point though is good. Some people think that just because they are away from home and no one will know who they are that they can act up. I'm sure that there are some here that 'talk the talk, but don't walk the walk'.

 

Just picking up spent shotgun shells, aluminum cans, etc, as you scout/hunt is a positive thing. I got two friends to start picking up shotgun shells after they saw me doing it and asked why.

 

Ghost Hunter

[oldboy]

Talked to my Lawyer friend this morning and he told me the only real option was to work with state and federal land managers and have them force the issue. They are the legal stewards of the public property beyond and they have the only case.

 

I guess I'm blind, or just too busy trying to stay away from other hunters that I just don't see all the vandalism that occurs during hunts. Sure I see shot up water tanks and such, but I never figured a hunter would do that. Only a Vandal with a gun.

 

I'll write a letter to the state land dept., AZ G&F, Coronado National Forest, and probably good 'ol Rick Renzie, and see if something can get worked out. I see why the ranchers do it, I truly respect those men trying to make a living by maintianing the cowboy tradition, but I have never destroyed their property and it sucks they just call us all vandals and lock us out.

[billrquimby]

I guess I'm blind, or just too busy trying to stay away from other hunters that I just don't see all the vandalism that occurs during hunts.  Sure I see shot up water tanks and such, but I never figured a hunter would do that.  Only a Vandal with a gun. I'll write a letter to the state land dept., AZ G&F, Coronado National Forest, and probably good 'ol Rick Renzie, and see if something can get worked out.  I see why the ranchers do it, I truly respect those men trying to make a living by maintianing the cowboy tradition, but I have never destroyed their property and it sucks they just call us all vandals and lock us out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Back in the early 1980s, when I still was the Tucson Citizen's outdoor editor and a member of its editorial board, I did a six- or seven-part series on the problems of access to public lands. It accomplished only two things:

 

1. It embarassed Game & Fish enough that it removed illegal locks on the powerline road into the Mustang Mountains. After that it "negotiated" with state land lessees, resulting in "agreements" with two or three ranchers allowing hunters to cross narrow stretches of private land if hunters signed a logbook coming and going. (trouble is, public roads leading to the same area were closed.)

 

2. Ranchers retaliated by screaming about vandalism. So my bosses suggested I do a series on the problems ranchers faced from slobs on their leases and private land. Almost every complaint I investigated turned out to bogus. One guy said hunters had dismantled his windmill. But when I and a Game and Fish guy went out to look at the windmill we found greasy stove bolts and nuts all over the place, some as far as 20 yards away from the mill. Under a magnifying glass we could see that the bolts had never had a wrench turning them the left == only to the right to tighten them. The rancher had used too much grease in his mill, the grease leaked onto the vanes, and caused a couple of bolts to work loose. The vibration eventually threw off more bolts and ripped the vane off.

 

I made at least two or three trips to ranches in response to littering complaints. It was in late spring, after the javelina season, and all the garbage and trash I was shown hadn't been dumped by hunters. One bag contained household garbage.

 

After I used my column to invite ranchers to register their complaints with me a guy called and asked me to come out to "see the trespassers" who plagued him every weekend. I did, and found a carload of guys shooting doves (the season was open) at a waterhole. He complained thAT they no only were trespAssing, but were "shooting TOO CLOSE TO WATER." (MY KEYBOARD IS STUCK). I EXPLAINED THE RULE ABOUT A QUARTER MILE FROM WATER APPLIES TO CAMPING. AFTER RETURNING TO TUCSON I CHECKED AND FOUND THE POND WAS ON STATE LAND.

[coueshunter84]

I have worked for many ranches in most of the units in Cochise County over the years including Mercers. Yes it does get old repairing damage done by vandals with guns. Bad thing is, some of them had tags with them when they did the damage. ALso being an avid whitetail hunter I spend lots of time up high glassing just like the rest of you. IN some of the areas I hunt it dosent take long to witness some of these folks in action. I have personally witnessed; fences cut (was nice enough to spend 1/2 an hour helping me fix it, after I explained to him that no the road does not go there ( Oct whitetail tag), an entire quiver of arrows stuck into a saguaro about 12 feet up(explained that he was seeing if his bow was sighted in and asked me if I would pull them out for him by standing on my saddle( got 6 months of probation and had to pay for the cactus)), people shooting water tanks and troughs, and folks sighting in their rifles on windmill vanes, and one time the head itself. That was a $5000 fix that put the troughs below it out of service for 3 weeks. By the time we got back down to the bottom the bum had gone. We could hear the shots hitting the mill. Nothing ever came of it. This was reported the same day. We know who he is. and still it was our word against his. Literally, nothing was done and the ranch was out a whole bunch of manpower time plus the cost of the mill head, and having to move the herd to another pasture until it was fixed, which messed up his pasture rotation. I realise this is an personally isolated problem amongst people with tags and guns ( I refuse to call them hunters). I have not met a HUNTER who was capable of anything this despicable. But idiots with guns and tags.. WELL ya know. makes all the rest of us look bad.

However,, Even though I understand both sides,, I have to side with the ranchers on this one. Saving $5000 worth of problems just once, is well worth the headaches of us complaining all the time.

And besides them locking off roads just makes it better for me the hunter who is not against taking my pack back in to the boonies. Kind of takes the road hunters out of the picture. Lots more bucks for me to chase.

 

 

Shane

[azhuntsmen]

I am torn between both ranchers and hunters. I understand that if the ranchers regulate the amount of traffic through the area they can pin point these morons with weapons doing the damage and bring them to justice. However paying to get from point A to B is a hit in the pocket book for anyone. I just do my best to meet the ranchers of the areas i will be hunting and make it apoint to let them know i always bring out more trash then i pack in. And i treat the area as if i was a guest in someones home with total respect. OK thats my 2 cents.

[ghost hunter]

coues84,

 

I like the way you separate Hunters from the rest. I agree, "Hunters" act responsibly, then there are those others; "idiots with tags and guns". They are the ones causing the problems for the rest of us.

 

Ghost Hunter

[azdave]

My guess is that most of the people that take the time to frequent a board like this ARE true sportsmen that take hunting very serious and personal, like myself. Then there are the kind that just use hunting for an excuse to cruise around on quads and get drunk every night, fine if they don't damage anything or bother everyone else. AND then we come to the complete idiots that have no business around guns, shouldn't have a tag and pride themselves on being obnoxious and potentially dangerous. Everyone i'm sure has seen these guys (morons).

Another way to consider the ranchers view point is to picture these guys driving through your front yard to camp in your backyard. Probably would get old pretty quick, I bet.

 

The last time I deer hunted down by the border(many years ago) I got the satisfaction of costing a camp full of so called "hunters" a large sum in fines by the Nat. Forest law en. officers--3 tickets, over $1000 total, and a visit to court. Damage to Federal property(living trees), litter, and another charge I don't recall now.

 

Anyways, we all must remember that the general public looks at US ALL as equal "hunters", thats why policing ourselves is so important.

 

edit to add: I think MOST ranchers understand that its a very small percentage that cause ALL the problems, and don't want to go to these extremes, but its not like they can have a checkpoint at the entrance to profile everyone.

And at the same time, i'm sure there are ranchers that think of the public land as their own, and need their attitude adjusted by the .gov concerning this.

[coueshunter84]

Let me clarify a little more.. I dont agree with charging for entry. And there are ranchers that are taking this to extremes. Whether you can add the Mercers to this list ?? But in knowing them personally, They are good people, Some of the best in the business, when it comes to catching wild cows and breaking horses, or at least Mike is.

But you have to look at it from their angle, they are in a business that is getting phased out. Due to politics, drought, and everything else, including modern progression. The American Rancher is becoming a thing of the past. They are on the short end of the stick in ways most of us will never know. Take Smith Ranch at the north end of the Whetstones. Don has kept his land locked off to everyone ( even me) since they bought the place. But its was a nice hidy hole for some big mulies and one or 2 whitetail over the years. Which occasionally wandered off his place, and ended up on a wall somewhere. Thats now 4000 acres of private land/ habitat ( big buck sanctuary) thats going to developers. Granted this is private land, but the state is definately not against selling chunks of land to the developers either. Old Spanish Trail in Tucson.. used to be surrounded by state land. Look at it now.

Now think about this. What will happen to our favorite hunting spots when they ( the ranchers) start going out of business ( which is already happening slowly but surely as developers are offering ungodly sums of money for what little private the ranchers do have. ) . Those areas that are partially locked off and or controlled right now. might end up totally inaccessable. What of the waterholes some of you hunt? those will dry up and be gone. I know most of you realise what all the ranching community means to our beloved coues and every other critter. But not everyone realises whats happening to those who are keeping the range what it is today.

The place I help out on now has put in no less then 10 miles of waterlines, 10 large water holding tanks. somewhere around 20 troughs and other water sources. He has 8 windmills I think. Spring boxes on 3 or 4 different springs and seeps.. and lots of this water is in whitetial country. Lots of critters rely on water hes made accessible. If a developer comes in a offers him a ton of money for the 400 or so acres of private he has. I don tknow if he would turn it down. HE already having to work to support the ranch. Him selling out would put 29 sections of land without a care taker. his herd capacity is only 250 mother cows. Not much for someone to pick up and take over.

See what I'm getting at here. They ( the ranchers) are scrapping harder to keep their lifestyle then we the hunters are. So the more they can keep folks from destroying what little they have left, they will lock the gate every time. And if it gets to the point they have to lock the gate, they will fight to keep it locked.

Sorry to get so long winded on this. But its something that irks me alot. The only reason I dont ride a horse for a living is I cant make much of a living doing it.

We as hunters kind of need to watch what goes on with this. Might be the road to your favorite hunting spot thats obscured by 200 homes (or more) one day. Think about it, Lots of the roads leading to coues country run through private ground owned by ranchers. Thats what this post is all about.

Those folks who are trying to rid our lands of ranchers are just as capable of making a mountain into a mole hill as the anti hunters ( same bunch of screwballs usually) are. The ranchers are CYA the same as we do when they come after us.

 

 

Shane

[billrquimby]

They ( the ranchers) are scrapping  harder to keep their lifestyle then we the hunters are.  So the more they can keep folks from destroying what little they have left, they will lock the gate every time. And if it gets to the point they have to lock the gate, they will fight to keep it locked.

... Those folks who are trying to rid our lands of ranchers are just as capable of making a mountain into a mole hill as the anti hunters ( same bunch of screwballs usually)  are. The ranchers are CYA the same as we do when they come after us. 

Shane

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Shane:

 

I have no problem with ranchers locking their private lands ... until they block historic roads that have been graded and maintained by counties with public money or have provided access for the public to huge sections of public land for a long, long time.

 

A rancher's land is his fiefdom and he is entitled to charge entry fees to it or keep everyone off it, but BLM, State, DOD, and Forest Service lands are the public's and we should have free access to it. This means if a rancher closes a 50-75-year-old road to BLM land that crosses his property he definitely should not be allowed to lease that BLM land.

 

Sorry, but that's what I believe. Just as we shouldn't lump all ranchers in the same pot, it is flat-out wrong for them to make all of us pay for the actions of a few slobs.

 

 

Bill

[coueshunter84]

Bill,

 

 

I would group those you are talking about into the group thats going to far. If a road is historical then it should remain open. And there are alot of other reasons to keep lots of road open. But if you ask them ( the ranchers) they will have lots of reasons to close them. I also agree with you that some of them are using hunters as scape goats for problems caused by others. Being they are human, Well, I will not make excuses for those who do. They are wrong and thats not right. But still, whether it was a goober with a tag and a gun or not, something of theirs was broken or destroyed, or killed. And to them locking a gate or 2 might prevent it from happening again. Just last week I was told of a cow found with an arrow wound in it tword the end of the archery season. In this case the cow survived, But thats a Vet bill the rancher had to eat. This was in the Santa Ritas.

 

I am definately right smack on the razor wire on this one. The only thing I can tell you folks as hunters. If you want to get on the good side of the ranchers. Take the time to stop and talk them. Most of them are hunters also. If you come across and level minded and an honest person it will get you farther then anything. Being most of them are honest and fair, it might not get a gate unlocked, but it will almost always get you info on the land, the critters, the water situation, the feed situation, and everythign else attributed to that ranch. Most of them are at the last resort to lock a gate. They have tried everythign else.

 

Couple of tricks I learned. On the way back out, Stop and ask them if they have somewhere you can toss all the garbage you picked up. Tell them the condition of the waters you visited. What the feed looked like. How the cows you seen looked. And anythign else you can think of.

 

You will probably enjoy the conversation, Get a good cup of coffee or glass of tea out of it. So stop by the ranch house when your out scouting, Let them get to know you. Stop by on the way out and let them know how your hunt went, and hwo everything looked. And if you see something happening get a good description, a plate number, any info you can. I bet the rancher will make the call for you.

 

THings like this will go along way to getting the gates opened again.

 

 

Shane

[billrquimby]

" If you come across and level minded and an honest person it will get you farther then anything. Being most of them are honest and fair, it might not get a gate unlocked, but it will almost always get you info on the land ... "

 

Shane:

 

After spending six months working on that access series I was shocked to learn a great many hunters didn't care if gates were locked as long as they personally had access. They even didn't mind having to ask permission from a lessee to enter Forest Service and State land.

 

A few even admitted they felt having a rancher limit access to public land kept the riff-raff out.

 

Again, I have no trouble with ranchers saying who can and can't use their private land. Public land is something else, though. I really have a problem when historic roads are closed to keep us off public land behind private land.

 

I'm not a lawyer but I would think the laws of adverse possession could come into play after a road across private land has been used by the public for 20, 30, or even 75 years.

 

Unfortunately, our state and federal land managment agencies have been reluctant to protect our rights.

 

Bill

[Rembrant]

The bad news is that this road closing thing will probably only get worse.

The good news is that if you get off your lazy butts you can backpack around closures and have the place to yourself. Not only will you have the time of your life, but since nobody can drive in there anymore - and they're all too lazy to backpack - the place will have more mature bucks.

Something about lemons and lemonade.

Or you can buy a quad and drive around with everyone else.

 

I do like the talk about legislative action in this string.

Mike

[oldboy]

All of my hunts behind Mecers were backpack hunts, I understand as well as anybody the beauty and isolation of a wilderness hunt, and I have shot a few nice ones up there off Maverick Mnt. and Biscut Peak. But HOLY MOLY, to access this country over land from the Mercer Ranch adds another 8-10 miles to the adventure.

 

We have come in from the Four Mile Creek side, but dealing with Lackner makes Mercer seem pretty level headed. He rode his mule with about 8 hounds right through our camp and let it urinate right next to my tent, splatterring pee all over it. The next year he posted every spring along four mile creek with "NO CAMPING WITH IN 1/4 MILE" signs. When we finally ran out of water options we ignored the signs and set up camp. Two days later 'Ol Ed Lackner comes riding in with one of his USFS range officers. One of the "good 'ol boy" types and tells us to leave. No citation given and we refused to leave. They rode out.

 

Upon my return I called the unit manager of AZ G& F. I was told that a private citezen can not hang those signs, and the camping by water law does not apply to creeks, rivers, or natural springs when another water source is available. Heck Four Mile Creek is an intermittent creek with water every 1/4 mile. He hung those signs totaly illegaly and tried to bluff us out'a there with his Range Buddy from the USFS. I sent letters to the Coronado National Forest Safford district and got no reply.

 

So thus, the next time I pull a 32 October whitetail tag, I either need to get real lucky that I'm one of the first 25 folks to contact Mercer, or deal with Mule PEE! You could guess I'm a little frustrated.

 

I'm leaving tonight to start scouting Carp for Friday's hunt. I suppose I'll stop by the Mercers and at least get their phone number for next year.

[Rembrant]

Right on Oldboy,

You speak the truth. But the deer huntin was good wasn't it?

Lackner has found a way to legally create his own private deer huntin ranch - with land that ain't his!

As long as these ranchers can legally do this, they will. Meanwhile, are we able bodied deer hunters gonna sit on our quads and just wish we could hunt that country? - And let Lackner, the Mercers and other ranchers have their own private/public deer ranches??!

Hey! I'm gettin old! I don't know how many backpackin trips I have left. And lately I can't even get drawn. I'm gonna bust my butt for a deer as long as God lets me. I hunted whitetails over corn in Texas once. It sucked. I missed Arizona the whole time.

 

Once while I was in my twenties, I ran into an old lion hunter named Otis Baker. I told him that I had a 6B spring turkey tag for the next week, but it had just snowed about 2 and 1/2 feet and I didn't think I was gonna be able to get in to the Unit. He was in his 70's at the time and still an active houndsman! He looks me up and down real good, then his old eyes locked with mine and he said, "Seems like a young fella like you ought to be able to walk in to just about anywhere he wants to."

This felt like a low blow, but man, he was right. That was his way of telling me - nicely- to quit whining and be a man.

I have been greatful ever since for being slapped with those words.

Lemonaide, I tell you!

Hope I get a tag next year.

Mike