Elk in Pinyons/Junipers

[COOSEFAN]

Jim, outstanding as usual. Thanx for sharing your coveted knowledge and skills.

 

Thanks man, I just like helping out where I can

[Coach]

As usual, great advice from Jim.

 

I watched a herd early this morning of 60+ elk, mostly cows and fawns with a couple scrubby bulls and 4-5 spikes and other yearling bulls. The herdbull, as it now stands, is a maybe 330ish 6x6. It was encouraging to see the primary bull bugling and chasing off smaller bulls, but these are the kinds of herds that can produce really well later on. The current "herd bull" is way too over-zealous and has more cows than he can possibly contain.

 

In the next couple of weeks, that huge heard will be broken up into several smaller herds, each with its own "herd bull". Now, I'm no elk expert, but I do get out there and watch them when I can, maybe grab some video, or learn something about their behavior. From what I've seen in the past, a herd like this will get broken into groups based on which cows go into heat - and which cows *she* controls. Some will splinter off without a fight, others will be "won" and then splintered off. The bulls that take off groups will not necessarily be big. The herd-bull of one group is usually fighting for a single hot cow, maybe two.

 

Where the really big bulls come into play is kind of away from the main herds. You might see them one day pushing a big herd, and the next day, the same herd is being controlled by a much smaller bull. I think of the bigger bulls as nomads. They don't really stick to any one herd, so much as bounce from group-to-group. It's kind of like they are too old to deal with wrangling cows - they know they can drop in when they want and breed, pretty much unchallenged - so they don't tie themselves to any one group of cows.

 

This is where mid-day hunting comes into focus. The bigger "mid-sized" bulls spend the night and early mornings defending their herd and trying to force them into a pocket that they can control. The really big bulls stick tighter to cover, usually solo, probing the smaller herds for a chance to come in and breed, then move on. As the "herd bulls" go off to wallow or scrape, the nomads slip in and breed, usually without much vocalization, and continue on to the next bedding area.

 

Point being, don't focus as much on "herd bulls" as on hot cows. Don't try to call the biggest in, because they're too smart to key in on a single cow. They are really smart, and will use your calls against you, just to keep tabs on where you are. They're more likely to get duped by their nose than by their ears. They've heard every call and can tell a human from the real thing. If in doubt, they stay away - that's how they get big.

 

Find and play the hot cows. Let them do the talking, and be a ghost to get in between them and the big boys.

 

Just some opintions from a non-expert. I hope something in here will help you on your hunt.

 

Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[arizonaelk]

couesfan - thanks for the info, I have to agree there is food and water all over in that unit this year, i haven't been up there since 2003 and i jsut don't feel i'm seeing the concentration of ek like i did then. I think you must have hit the nail right on the head, they are spread out everywhere, which is making it harder for me to find the toad i lose sleep about at night hahahahahah. Thanks for the info if you fell like there is anything else you want to add please dont hesitate to PM. cj

[Red Rabbit]

The majority of the area I'm scouting for elk is all pinyon land in rolling hills-new to me and very hot after 9 am. Curious what the mid day archery tactics are for bulls as I like to hunt all day long. Glass, still hunt, ???

 

 

You could go back to camp, eat a big lunch and take a nap.

 

OR, you could sit a wallow and have that big bull leave his bedded cows and come to your mud hole in the middle of the day .

[arizonaelk]

Point being, don't focus as much on "herd bulls" as on hot cows. Don't try to call the biggest in, because they're too smart to key in on a single cow. They are really smart, and will use your calls against you, just to keep tabs on where you are. They're more likely to get duped by their nose than by their ears. They've heard every call and can tell a human from the real thing. If in doubt, they stay away - that's how they get big.

 

Find and play the hot cows. Let them do the talking, and be a ghost to get in between them and the big boys.

 

Coach - i have to ask. How are you finding the cow that is in heat? How do i identify that cow? This is an interesting theory that i haven't heard before.

 

thank you

 

[Coach]

arizonaelk,

Finding the "hot cow" is pretty much just watching the herd. Some cows and calves will be indifferent to the bulls. They feed, they bed, they just go along. From what I've observed, there are usually one or two cows that come into estrus at any given time and bulls focus on them. They give off the right smells, certain body language - to let the bulls know they are ready to breed.

 

The cows have their own pecking order, and family groups that hang together. A nursing cow might not come into estrus early in the Fall, whereas one of her younger siblings or other cows she dominates will. When the cows separate, it seems that they do so on "family lines" or "packs" for lack of a better term.

 

A bull will come in with intentions of pulling a single cow that is sending breeding signals. If he suceeds at pulling this cow away, others that are part of her group or "clique" will join her.

 

Again, I'm not an elk expert by any means, but I've seen this sort of splintering of cows many times. The cow in heat gets the attention of a certain bull, he does what he can to separate her from the herd, and based on hierarchy, the cows she controls follow her.

 

Identifying the hot cow is pretty simple - even the young spikes will be approaching her with their tounges out (maybe even other cows) sniffing her back side. When a cow goes in heat, she gives off strong pheromones. This is what triggers rutting activity in the bulls, and fights over a cow ready to breed. Each cow, if they aren't nursing, will usually hit that point and during the Fall and become the object of the bulls' attention.

 

As far as I know, nobody has yet figured out what triggers the release of pheromones. Some say it's temperatures, some hours of daylight, others say the moon.

 

Personally, I'm in the "moon" camp - wtih caveats. I think a combination of shorter days, cooler night-time temperatures, and a new moon kick the cows into breeding time. That's assuming there is good feed and plentiful water - which this year, they definately have. I've watched several herds with lots of cows over the past couple of weeks. There are bulls trying to manage them, but the cows seem mostly disinterested in the bulls. They are still getting their cues from the dominant cows. We are currently at 39% full moon, waning. The next new moon will be Wed or Thurs next week. For the lucky archers out there, this corresponds with opening of the archery hunt.

 

Now, I could be wrong, and this will be a good test, but in my thinking, many of the cows will start their estrus cycle in the middle of next week - corresponding to the new moon. Those that don't will probably go into estrus 4 weeks later, at the next new moon.

 

I would LOVE to hear from those of you hunting opening weekend to see how the rut has progressed. Obviously, I'm not interested in honing in on your "secret spot", i just want to hear how the upcoming new moon affects the bulls and cows in the areas you are hunting. My guess is, Friday, the 10th to Monday the 13th of Sept. are going to be super hot for rut activity.

 

I would really like to hear what you guys and gals see in the field, to test this hypothesis.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[coues krazy]

Your theory sounds good to me, and I will let you know how things pan out during those days. This could be very interesing as far as learning about the elk rut. This opening weekend might teach us alot. Thanks for the insight.

[arizonaelk]

Wow Coach i feel like i just learned alot thank you, i actually am going to print that and read it again in camp. I woudl never expect someone to give me their secret honey hole but i do apreciate info from the folks that get to spend 10x the amount of time in the woods as I do. The info you and couesfan shared is really good and I hope i can put it to good use. whatever else you think you can share that will make me a better archery elk hunter please i'm open to learning.

[metau]

Great post, glad it got stickied

[KaibabHunter]

Glad this turned out to be such a good thread! Headin up in about 3 hours to finish scouting and hopefully put it all together on a big bull.

[Couesdeer]

+1 on this being a great thread. Lots of good info on elk behavior.

I drew a 22S early muzzleloader bull tag. Hopefully they'll still be making noise later this month!

[AntlerObsession]

We have an archery tag in the family, so we're going to be up there starting Thurs. I'm taking notes and will definitely post what I see(and hear!) this weekend. Plenty of pics, for sure!!! Good luck to all this opening weekend!

[willhunt4coues]

Thank you to all that has contributed to this topic.

[matt burke]

My kid and wife have cow tags for 17, 18, and 19. We spent a week in the field south of YOLO and put over 400 miles running the hills looking for them. Hours of glassing, stalk hunting the easy terrain, and driving around left us empty handed. I finally found one the last evening, but unable to get to her. Anyone have suggestions for this area? We're heading back on the 7th and 8th of Dec. I sure would like to take at least one...those homeless folks need some protien. If you need a place to donate some meat, Casa Maria Soup Kitchen in Tucson feeds the homeless. . . that's where I donate whenever we harvest.

[treemarshal]

I have an archery elk tag and have put some miles on my truck scouting. I have the opportunity to fly the unit thanks to a friend. This is a new unit for me so I've been trying to do my homework. Has anyone ever flown their unit and was it more beneficial.