Long range rigs

[ghost]

Lark,

Just for the record....I know of three LE sniper shootings in the past seven years, two were in the past 18 months and thats just one agency in AZ. The reality is that media reports police shootings and often do not get the full info on who did the shooting. Public perception around snipers is kinda messy and alot of people dont like the idea that there are "trained killers" patroling their neighborhoods. There is a common misconception about snipers and what their job is and believing that LE snipers and military snipers operate in the same manner. A sniper is alot more then a highspeed rifle....there are thousands of hours of training and multiple aspects to the discipline. When referencing the rifle a sniper uses one must realize that they are out to complete an objective and their rifle is a tool that they have. However, they can and will complete their mission with whatever is necessary...it might be a bolt gun, handgun, M4 whatever......or more often then that in LE incidents, it is done with good optics and some form of communication. A snipers job is more observation that shooting in a lot of cases.

 

In regars to this thread, there are a lot of things that can be done to a rifle that can improve its accuracy.....the most often overlooked thing is improve the shooter.

[DesertDiesel]

so, just wondering desert diesel, how many folks have you killed while in the sniper community? what's that? i'm sure it has happened, but i don't recall even one person getting killed by a sniper in Az. in a long time. and i've lived here quite awhile. enquiring minds wanna know. again, just wondering.

 

Lark,

 

You are a jackass.

 

For your information...due to your "enquiring" mind, I started my LR shooting in the USMC in 1991. After 3 yrs, I did a lateral transfer to the Army. I became 18 series qualified in 1994, (18B) that's SF weapons sergeant. In 1999 I went to the Army Sniper School. In Dec 2001 I deployed to Afghanistan for a 1 yr tour and what I did/accomplished there ISN'T YOUR F-ING BUSINESS! In 2004 I attended the Phoenix PD sniper school.

 

All moron's seem to want to rate a shooters ability by body count. In AZ I have none and I'm grateful for that. By the way you don't know much about Law Enforcement snipers, I've got three former teammates with "sniper" shootings in Mesa AZ alone in the last couple of years.

 

But AZ body counts wouldn't mean much in LR shooting anyway. A police sniper likely wont need to shoot very far, less than 50 yards most of the time, whereas a military sniper wants to be as far away as possible and still make the shot. Think about it Lark (I know it is hard to use both of your brain cells at the same time) but how is a police sniper going to make a long range shot in an urban environment (that means a lot of building around)...other than an airport.

 

Go back to pleasuring yourself with Soldier of Fiction Magazine and romance novels about Vietnam.

[.270]

i tend to be when folks call me a liar and about every other derogatory term they can think of. all because i "can" shoot and ain't in the"community". if you take notice, you won't find where i ever said you were a liar or questioned your integrity. and good on ya for your military service. but that doesn't mean i can't shoot and don't have the training, experience, education and equipment to get it done. and at real long ranges. and i don't have a big fat barrel on my .300. guess maybe it's just an anomoly. but, i'll just keep on huntin'. all over the country. for anything i want to. and when i need to, shoot long distances. and just keep being lucky and having wet dreams. and reading, what was it, soldier of fortune? is that what you accused me of? i'm not too familiar with it. did used to work with a guy that carried em in his pocket all the time. maybe he was in the community once too. maybe you know him. there's a reason i have a 20 foot loading bench with 3 presses, 3 different throws, a file cabinet literally full of dies and more powder, brass, primers and bullets than a lot of the stores in this town. i shoot a lot. and i've become fairly adept at it. when this thread started a guy had a question about whether or not you had to have a real heavy rifle to shoot a long ways with. i told him i had a pretty good rifle and it wasn't very heavy and i could shoot it, real well. then you and some other guys chimed in and flat called me a liar. but guess what, i can still shoot. made several spectacular shots in just the past 2 weeks. not at targets either. actual living things. well, they were. until i killed em. but then again, it coulda just been another wet dream. i'll admit this much, i am fairly new to serious long range shooting. only been serious about this stuff for 3 or 4 years. i've only had my new/rebuilt rifle for less than a year. spent lotsa time at the reloading bench and at the range with my sons and their rigs and that's where i got interested. when i saw it was a lot of fun. in the past 3 years, the closest i've killed a deer, in Az anyway, was 535 yards. and that was just with a skinny barrelled .264 and didn't even have a range finder with me. ranged it the next day just to see how far it was. just guessed on where to aim and it worked. lucky i'm sure. another was 635 and last year was 565. and the 635 buck was running. no bs. also shot a bull at 730 and one at 900 in the past 2 years. these 2 deer and elk were shot with real serious long range rifles tho, with all the auxiliary equipment needed. i don't think any of those shots were accidents. even tho i'm just a novice to long range, i ain't no kid when it comes to shooting. and i'm pretty good at getting the most out of a rifle. and even with eyes that don't work like they used to, artificial joints, kevlar mesh and arthritis i can still get things done.

 

ghost, your statement about the shooter having to improve is a good one and if folks will read back, i think i've said that several times in this excercise. the most critical part of any shooting situation is the trigger finger and who it's connected to. doesn't matter how much money you've spent, how fancy your rig is or what brand names you have, if you don't know what you're doing, it doesn't matter. as far as how many sniper shootings there have been, i have no clue and really don't care. just looking for a reaction. and got it.

 

308, you got it. when they get the ferry fixed and my friend gets his things together i'll be up. anchorage ain't too big o' place. we gotta rebuild his place in yak. bad renters. place is worse than a catbox. and put up a garage for the boat, truck and quads. i think i'll head back to the mountains again in the morning. my buddy still has a tag and the fish are still bitin'. Lark.

 

[ghost]

Lark-

I was just answering your question by giving just a taste of those type of statistics. I dont think people come here to research that stuff but I do think its important that people in the community are aware of the reality that these things do actually happen thats all.

I have a remington 700 .243 that I have had since I was 14 stock as a rock with a fixed 4x scope, but a good handload for it. It shoots sub moa. I learned alot from that rifle that transfered nicely to a very fancy setup that I had the opportunity to play with for a few years. I guess the reality is that just about any gun out there is capable of pretty impressive stuff in the hands of a proficiant shooter. And shooting proficiancy has no magic to it....thousands of rounds plus thousands of hours...thousands of dollars can factor in but you cant buy ability. I no longer hunt with my .243 and its just kinda my play gun now. I like my 300 WSM in a bedded thumbhole stock with a leupold scope mounted in leupold rings on an EGW base (only company that made what I needed). It shoots just fine and I would take a shot comfortably out to 700yds with it. I also have trouble seeing the need to shoot much farther then that...I generally think I can get within 700yds....Its a deer they dont have binos or counter sniper training....or maybe they do....on second thought, Im convinced the big ones do.

I do think that comparing a sniper rifle to a hunting rig is not really an accurate comparison simply because they have very different purposes. Not to say that one can't function well as the other but Ive never seen wildlife wearing armor of any kind and returning fire and I have yet to shoot at any game that my accuracy had human life hanging in the balance, and those variables can definately affect your accuracy. What makes a "sniper rifle" a "sniper rifle" is the title of the person holding it. For the point of the question that started this thread Id say buy a rifle in a cal that will meet your needs in a make and model that fits you and you are comfortable with. Then mount a decent optic on it, there are alot of good ones out there for less then Nightforce or S&B. Find a load that works then practice practice practice....left handed, right handed and every weird unnatural shooting position you can think of....Then if you plan to retrieve the rifle from your carry system quickly set your rig up and practice retrieving your rifle quickly. Its all about comfort confidence and practice.

And thats all just one guys opinion.....and we are all entitled to our own. I have my experiences to base my opinions on but so does everyone else.....Im no expert. Five pages into this I dont even know who started it any more but theres alot of great info in this thread.....read it all and formulate your opinion.

[DesertDiesel]

Note to self: After a long day at work, don't hop on the internet and fire away with a "run-away mouth", otherwise you'll end up saying things you wish you hadn't.

 

And that is exactly what I did.

 

Lark, I'd like to formally apologize for my comments to you. I see that on May 1 I stated you were wrong or otherwise misinformed, but I certainly wasn't calling you a liar, but I do understand how it could be taken that way. It wasn't my intent for you take it that way. If we ever got down to it, I'm sure that we'd find we have a lot more in common than we have differences. I hope we can put this behind us and move on. I'll leave it at that.

 

To whoever started this thread, I'd also like to apologize for hijacking it or at least for participating in the hijacking. I should have either (1) kept my posts on target or (2) just shut my mouth all together.

 

Any how, I've got to get, I've got a 23 archery bull tag to scout for. Best of luck and happy hunting to you all.

[Guest Bandido]

When I was a kid and shooting just about every day. I shot a jackrabbit (at what my buddy and I paced out to 90-100 yards) with a Sears and Roebuck .22 with Stinger bullets and open sights. Does that count? He called me "Sir" for a day at school.

[Stray Horse]

In the old days hunters talked about shot placement, leading a running buck, finding the one that got away, where the big ones go and how to get on them, what to do in the wind and rain, passing up a shot, determining range. Now it's someone stole my cameras, I want to shoot a deer so far away that he doesn't even know anyone is around. Help me where should I hunt? My rangefinder said. . . What's a map? Can I get my atv in there?

I miss Jack O'Connor. Hunting was just hunting then.

 

 

yep

[huntwithme2]

i'm a little confused. how much energy does your rifles have if you can kill elk at one thousand yards. does it still stand that for elk you have to have a minumim of fourteen houndred foot pounds. i gues i'm from the old school. a three houndred shot is considered far.

[youngbuck]

i'm a little confused. how much energy does your rifles have if you can kill elk at one thousand yards. does it still stand that for elk you have to have a minumim of fourteen houndred foot pounds. i gues i'm from the old school. a three houndred shot is considered far.

 

Thats where ultra high BC's come into play. The biggest hot rod mags around can't carry energy at long distance with out bullets that "slip" through the air. I haven't ran the numbers in a while but BC's have a HUGE effect on kinetic energy levels the farther you are shooting. If I remember right (i may be mistaken, i dont have charts or balstic software at work) my 300RUM (loaded faitly hot) shooting 180gr Accubonds (a pretty high BC and fairly heavy for .30cal) is running into minimum bullet expansion velocities short of 900yd.

[308Nut]

i'm a little confused. how much energy does your rifles have if you can kill elk at one thousand yards. does it still stand that for elk you have to have a minumim of fourteen houndred foot pounds. i gues i'm from the old school. a three houndred shot is considered far.

 

Not being a smart a$$ here. I am using a 338 Edge running 300 grain pills with a very high weight, BC and high velocity to weight ratio. At 7000 feet above sea level it delivers over 2400 foot pounds of energy at a full 1000 yards. Berger just came out with their VLD version. This will translate into nearly 2700 foot pounds. If you would feel comfortable shooting an elk with a 30-06 with the muzzle buried into the fur, then the 300 grain pill of a larger diameter ought to do the trick. Most would agree that 1500 pounds is enough for a mature elk (provided there is reliable bullet expansion). Granted, I dont like the 300 grainers due to recoil. The 225's I am using offer me 1700 pounds of energy at 1K with enough retained velocity to initiate expansion at 1K. Accuracy is top notch.

 

Is it a 1K elk rifle? It depends on who you ask and how hard the wind is blowing.

 

M

[youngbuck]

308 have you had a chance to shoot any of Bergers 300gr .338's? I should get back over to LRH and read up on em I suppose.

[308Nut]

308 have you had a chance to shoot any of Bergers 300gr .338's? I should get back over to LRH and read up on em I suppose.

 

I have not. I am waiting for their 250 VLD. Suppose to sport a .743 G1 BC. I can handle the recoil of the 250's much better than the 300's. These would be a good balance between weight, recoil, high BC and retained velocity and energy.

[huntwithme2]

i aploud you guys for doing all this calculating to shoot at great distances, spend a lot of money on custom rifles and shoot at a thousand yards or more but to me it''s not hunting, its shooting at game.

some of you older hunters might know this. years ago [ i think 1968 or so] there used to be a club in pensilvania that during the deer season they used to organize on one side of a canyon. they had benches built there and used to shoot at deer across the canyon. they even had spotters using those huge navy binocs, telling where they missed and adjust there aim. there guns used to weight up to twenty or so pounds all, all wild cat cartriges. the stocks looked like a block of wood with a really thick barrel on it. outdoor life used to have a story in their mag a couple years in a row. i gues that was the first long distance shooting on game that was ilistrated in a mag. maybe someone out there knows more about this hunt than i do.

just a little old info