Long range rigs

[DesertDiesel]

"In over a decade in the sniping community, "

 

wait a minute, you guys live in a commune of snipers? that is just, well, weird. Lark.

 

 

From all the Tom Clancy reading and war moving watching you've done to gain your 'expertise' in this matter, I'd thought you'd of heard of it by now.

[catclaw]

Gary Schneider makes 10 sniper barrels for every ONE that Dan builds. My buddy's "experience" is just that- a factual experience. You and I come from different worlds I guess. I know LOTS of guys that have had bad experiences with Liljas. Did you know Hart doesn't warranty their barrels??? Must tell you something!

 

I have had best luck with cut rifled barrels, Krieger, Obermeyer, Rocky Mtn. Pederson et al. I used the last Schneider on a recommendation from the Scottsdale rangemaster. It is the "fastest" barrel I have ever had. Period.

 

I never said that Lilja doesn't make good barrels, only that he thinks he is infallible and he is not. All the barrel makers that I buy from want me to be satisfied- if I am not, I can send it back and they will make it right. Hart and Lilja won't do that.

 

I had a rifle built by a prominent BR gunsmith a few years ago. It wouldn't shoot. We tried everything; cryo, bushing the bolt, speedlock etc. Finally he tried to get it to shoot himself. He said that that barrel (Hart) was no good. Hart, of course, wouldn't warranty it so he put a Krieger on it. All of a sudden it was shooting. Will I ever buy another Hart?? I wouldn't spend the $$ to have it chambered if they gave it to me.

 

Anyone who would recommend a 7 twist 3-groove for a hot magnum to shoot a bullet that will easily stabilize with a 9 twist is irresponsible. This fact alone guarantees that I will never buy a barrel from him.

 

It's all in the Kool-aid Phil. Someone gets a screamer barrel and he is now the best maker in the world. whatever

[308Nut]

Anyone who would recommend a 7 twist 3-groove for a hot magnum to shoot a bullet that will easily stabilize with a 9 twist is irresponsible. This fact alone guarantees that I will never buy a barrel from him.

 

It's all in the Kool-aid Phil. Someone gets a screamer barrel and he is now the best maker in the world. whatever

 

 

Unfortunately for your argument, nobody said Liljas were the best. 2nd, it isnt just somebody who got a screamer barrel from Lilja. For every complaint about Lilja, there are many many times that in success. Besides, I can see the conversation with Dan and your buddy going something like this:

 

Hello Dan, I would like a 7mm barrel that will stabilize the highest BC bullets available. Dan might think of the 200 RBBT wildcat bullets that wont stabilize in a 9 twist and suggests a 7 twist where your buddy, who has never heard of wildcat bullets has the 180 Bergers is mind. Your buddy gets the 7 twist as per Dan's recomendation, runs thin jacketed Bergers in it (which will desintegrate in a 3 groove barrel) and the problems begin.

 

Now I certainly am not saying that is what went down. I was not part of the conversation. What I am saying is that there could be more to the story than appears on the surface. Some times mis-understandings and mis-conceptions happen.

 

For the record, hot 7mm barrels can burn up and cause problems no matter what make, model, twist or groove type in 80-200 rounds. This is most likely a case where a good barrel maker is getting a bad name due to somebody else's caliber choice. I can honestly say with a fair amount of confidence that this most likely what went on there. I have been in nearly the exact same shoes using barrel burners. Just under 80 rounds was the magic number when the crap started to hit the fan. About 200 rounds later, things settled down a bit and would no longer shoot bullets worth a crap that did when it was fresh. It never did settle down completely but the changes slowed way down. After 500 rounds I gave up. However, before bashing the manufacturer publicly, I sent it to them, they re-lapped it, decided they didnt like what they saw and offered me a brand new one. Since the rock-well test came back perfect, I was 100% happy with the chamber and since it was a cut rifled barrel and not a button pulled barrel, I had them cut it out to .338 first. He still offered to send me a new one if it didnt shoot well. It shoots better than I do. Problem solved and I didnt have to ruin their reputation. I shouldnt have anyway, after all it was my poor choice of caliber as well as choosing to run top loads in it. For me it was a good lesson learned. I swallowed some pride and took the blame for what most would chalk up to a turd barrel and I know the barrel isnt or was never a turd as it is the same physical barrel yet yields different results due to the 338 bore being MUCH less 'overbore'. She has 220 rounds thought it and the hawkeye bore scope shows not one heat crack and the only throat errosion there is you have to really strain your eyes to see it where as before the throat was gone in less than 80 rounds. After 500 rounds the barrel was fire cracked over 1/2 way up and the first 3" looked like the grand canyon. In my mind this proves that it was my poor caliber selection and not the barrel in-and-of-itself that caused the problems.

 

You choose to drink Schneider koolaid and we choose to drink another. What is woorking for you is well and good. What is working for the rest of us is well and good. But just because your buddy burned out a Lilja in short order doesnt make them turds. That would be like me judging Schneider barrels as pure crap because I chose a barrel burner cartridge and cooked it by the time I developed loads for it and it would no longer shoot.

 

You also said that Lilja doesnt have a 3 groove button for anything other than a 7 twist which it 100% wrong. He offers 3 groove in 8 and 9 twist 284 barrels as well.

 

If you dont like Lilja barrels that is your choice and I respect that 100%. To bash them in public without ever owning one and taking your buddies complaints at face value doest give you the right to bash them. There is always a flip side to every situation. It would be nice to see the other side of the coin.

[drgonzales]

Great thread , I think everyone had lots of good information on this topic, I too am wanting to build a great long range rifle , Actually I want someone else to build it and i will just buy it . I want a true 1000 yard elk gun ,but i will be using it more for coues than elk. I'm looking to spend between 5000-6000$ total. It seems like I get a different answer from everyone I talk with.

My first choice would be the 338 edge (canyon rifle pack)

2nd the best of the west custom gun in a 300 win mag

3rd choice have a local gun smith build it, mount a nightforce nsx scope,sight it in and work up the best loads for my hunting style. Is that to much to ask?

I don't have the time or knowledge to build the ultimate long range gun, Thats why I'm looking for a complete package ,where the gun has been sighted in.Also I would like them to work up the best load for that actual gun. I can do all the reloading once they have worked up the load. I worked up the load for my 30-06 and that was a lot of work ,but i'm glad i did . I almost feel like a lazy butt wanting a gunsmith to do all the work for me. I only shoot 100-200 rounds a year at long distances to prepare and build my confidence, And thats still probably not enough, but I, like lark feel like i'm a good shot, In fact I believe anybody that wants to shoot long range,better feel like they are a good shot.

Anyhow back to my point, What are some of your thoughts? Can a local gunsmith build what I'm looking for , or Is the 338 edge the best bang for the buck, and let Shawn at defensive edge build the gun , sight it in and work the best load for that gun?

By the way a heavy gun does not bother me, at least not yet!

 

 

First of all, if you want a "1000 elk or coues rig" and you only shoot 100-200 rounds a year you need to atleast triple the amount of rounds you shoot. There is no way in helll you can consistently kill out to 1000 only shooting 5-10 boxes of shells a year! I shoot more than that on a dozen coyotes every winter!

I agree 100-200 shots per year is probably not enough, I envy the fact that you have that much time to enjoy your passion. I used to think making a 500 yard kill shot was crazy , But now i'm very confident at that range. Now I want to take that out to 1000 yards.And believe me I know, there is a HUGE difference between 500 and 1000 yards, I will need to find more time to put in behind the gun ,before I have 100% confidence at that range.Thats why I am also looking into the 338 edge with a nightforce scope. Also as you guys all know, that just becouse some bum goes out and buys himself a high dollar long range rifle,does not make him instantly a long range hunter capable of dropping an animal with one shot.But i'm going to work my way up to it. There are 5 or 6 of you guys on this particular thread who know more about this stuff than I do , Thats why i'm learning what i can from your posts.

My brother thinks i'm crazy to be spending this kinda money ( he says just sneak in closer like a real hunter).But he also knows that a few years ago I missed a chance of a lifetime on a huge coues because my only shot was over 700 yards, Thats when this crazy passion began!

By the way does anyone now rounds i can shoot with the edge before i need a new barrel, if I don't load them hot?

Also I just wanted to clarify 100-200 rounds was only through my long range set up, I do a lot of practicing with my 22mag pistol, It's great practice and a lot cheaper and its fun.

 

 

That was my predicament exactly. I had conservatively at 115" to 120" coues hung up at about 700 yards for about 8 hours. Didn't have the rifle to make the shot. This is why I want to put together a better rifle and why I posted this in the first place.

 

I appreciate all of the input.

[CouesWhitetail]

Wow, quite the lively debate going on here. I was three pages behind on this thread. Anyway, thanks to everyone for sharing their knowledge. Lots to be learned in this thread.

 

 

[Coues Archer]

The rifle weight doesnt really matter at all. Its all about getting used to your rifle and how you adapt to your shooting setup. I use a .308 in a savage model 10 FP(12 lbs.) We also hunt off of horses too and it is no problem to take it off the scabard and shoot whatever. There was a deer i busted 2 years ago about 250 yards and nailed him with the big ole rig. My dad and i have made 400-500 running deer shots standing up. Funny thing is, it seems as if all the big guys say not to hunt with heavy rifles, when i only way 125lbs and a 12lb rifle does not phase me one bit, I shoot very accurate with my rifle no matter what position im in. The weight never affects my accuracy. My advice too you is to buy whatever rifle you want and just get used to it.

[DesertDiesel]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international...mJNal3HgWlmEgRL

 

Talk about a long range rig. An Accuracy International is about as good as they get and one in .338 LM. My last few months on the team (PD) the department purchased two of them in .308. Hands down the nicest factory rifle I've ever fired. Available to the civilian market as well.

[catclaw]

Hello Dan, I would like a 7mm barrel that will stabilize the highest BC bullets available. Dan might think of the 200 RBBT wildcat bullets that wont stabilize in a 9 twist and suggests a 7 twist where your buddy, who has never heard of wildcat bullets has the 180 Bergers is mind. Your buddy gets the 7 twist as per Dan's recomendation, runs thin jacketed Bergers in it (which will desintegrate in a 3 groove barrel) and the problems begin.

 

 

They ordered 3 barrels SPECIFICALLY to shoot 180 Bergers. Dan knew this. HE recommended the 7 twist (my buddy wanted the 3 groove). Like I said, by the time he hit 80 rounds it was shredding the Bergers. He told me that he called him and asked him if he had other twists with a 3 groove, .284. He told me that Dan told him no. I didn't call Dan so I don't know myself and I don't care. He recommended a 3-groove, 1-7 twist to shoot the 180s. Bad advice.

 

It wasn't my intentions to bash Lilja. Many people have built some great rifles with his barrels. I have only ONE Schneider barrel- no koolaid for me, most of mine are Kriegers. My last barrel was a Mark Chanlynn barrel- I prefer cut rifled over button. It is a great barrel. I did just order 2 Schneiders for projects and one will be chambered here shortly (7mm-300 WBY). I'll post some pics of it when done. If it doesn't shoot, I will state such.

 

Time to move on. You don't need a 16# rifle to shoot accurate at long range, but a 7# rifle is not going to ever make a great long range rifle unless it is a carbon fiber wrapped barrel IMHO. If they were, the pro's would use them.

 

I am done on this topic.

[joeybari]

"best barrel" really? I hadn't heard of their being a best barrel.....you must have stumbled across something amazing that the rest of us have been missing.

 

"one of the best gunsmiths there is and topped with an extremely expensive scope that is set up to shoot long ranges"....Boy Lark you are just full of it today aren't you. I guess we need to know who your smith is too. A good majority of shooters can't even shoot their "custom" rigs to the potential the rifle has.....I tend to doubt with you statements and the running off of your mouth that you can either.

 

I find it funny the group of people on this website that get all bent out of shape when someone like 308Nut who has been shooting long range for much longer than most on this site have even heard of long range shooting brings up points on a specific question being asked. So Lark when you get over being an armchair warrior why don't you go ahead and post specs, groups and who/what all your "best" is so we can really see.

I think 270 is on something

Are reading what he is saying, its all over the place.

And someone needs to tell him to stop writing down what the history channel puts on we all seen that episode.

 

[Guest Bandido]

In the old days hunters talked about shot placement, leading a running buck, finding the one that got away, where the big ones go and how to get on them, what to do in the wind and rain, passing up a shot, determining range. Now it's someone stole my cameras, I want to shoot a deer so far away that he doesn't even know anyone is around. Help me where should I hunt? My rangefinder said. . . What's a map? Can I get my atv in there?

I miss Jack O'Connor. Hunting was just hunting then.

[308Nut]

In the old days hunters talked about shot placement, leading a running buck, finding the one that got away, where the big ones go and how to get on them, what to do in the wind and rain, passing up a shot, determining range. Now it's someone stole my cameras, I want to shoot a deer so far away that he doesn't even know anyone is around. Help me where should I hunt? My rangefinder said. . . What's a map? Can I get my atv in there?

I miss Jack O'Connor. Hunting was just hunting then.

 

 

Well put.

 

That is also why myself and a few other 'longrange' hunters I know also bowhunt. Hunting is hunting and shooting is shooting. I prefer both challenges.

[Guest Bandido]

Watching a "stick" fly downrange and hit the target!!! It's a whole different ballgame. Crashiing those arrows into eachother - man! What a rush! I miss that. I'd like to try a crossbow.

[youngbuck]

A 10lb .338 is pretty light. I'm guessing you arent using some 50mm objective and 30mm tube then. That looks like the ultimate carry anywhere do anything type rifle. The reasons for me building a longer range rifle than what I use now is to minimize variables and maximize predictibility. A 338 bucks the wind very well and the edge is very drop predictable. Now if I could only win the lottery and draw more often I'd be set. For the record I like archery hunting as much as I like rifle hunting. Being in the hills is always than workin.

[.270]

so, just wondering desert diesel, how many folks have you killed while in the sniper community? what's that? i'm sure it has happened, but i don't recall even one person getting killed by a sniper in Az. in a long time. and i've lived here quite awhile. enquiring minds wanna know. again, just wondering.

 

.308, thanks a lot for the info. i truly appreciate it and appreciate your serious and thorough explanation. it's a lot to ponder and a lot to learn. along about august when i get serious about shooting paper again i'll put it to use as best as i can. i saw a balistic computer the other day. are they worth it? it was a couple grand. money is no object to a rich good lookin' guy like me.

 

guess i'll never be a pro sniper, but i might be able to shoot a deer at a fair piece on occasion. like they say, it's better to be lucky than good. did shoot a running coyote with my .223 at around 350 or so last week. didn't get to range it until after i shot him. shot a turkey too, but didn't bother rangin' it. it was somewhere between 30 and 300. and all i had was a 12 guage with some 00. i sure have been lucky a lot. been lucky on at least 7 or 8 hunnerd coyotes alone. at least 50 deer, probly quite a few more. dozens of elk. all bulls. but some of the deer and elk were with a bow, so that don't count. too bad i'm just a wannabe neverwas. then there is all the bears and lions i dreamed i killed. but i dreamed that most of em were with hounds, so they were just up a tree a little ways. except the ones i dreamed i called in or trailed up in the snow or shot with a bow while elk hunting. i sure wish i was a somebody. guess i musta "wet dreamed" up all them hunts. i'm sure dissapointed in myself. all i've learned from this excercise is that if you don't think the same way some folks do, you're a dang liar. later dudes, it's turkey and trout time again. if ya ain't been to the mountains yet, ya best get there soon. all that water is a sight to see. .308, thanks one more time. it's appreciated greatly. i plan on being in 'Lasky later this summer. if you're close to anchorage, palmer or yakutat, i'll look ya up. Lark.

[308Nut]

Lark,

 

I am in Anchorage. Drop me a PM when you pass through.