Long range rigs

[308Nut]

Great thread , I think everyone had lots of good information on this topic, I too am wanting to build a great long range rifle , Actually I want someone else to build it and i will just buy it . I want a true 1000 yard elk gun ,but i will be using it more for coues than elk. I'm looking to spend between 5000-6000$ total. It seems like I get a different answer from everyone I talk with.

My first choice would be the 338 edge (canyon rifle pack)

2nd the best of the west custom gun in a 300 win mag

3rd choice have a local gun smith build it, mount a nightforce nsx scope,sight it in and work up the best loads for my hunting style. Is that to much to ask?

I don't have the time or knowledge to build the ultimate long range gun, Thats why I'm looking for a complete package ,where the gun has been sighted in.Also I would like them to work up the best load for that actual gun. I can do all the reloading once they have worked up the load. I worked up the load for my 30-06 and that was a lot of work ,but i'm glad i did . I almost feel like a lazy butt wanting a gunsmith to do all the work for me. I only shoot 100-200 rounds a year at long distances to prepare and build my confidence, And thats still probably not enough, but I, like lark feel like i'm a good shot, In fact I believe anybody that wants to shoot long range,better feel like they are a good shot.

Anyhow back to my point, What are some of your thoughts? Can a local gunsmith build what I'm looking for , or Is the 338 edge the best bang for the buck, and let Shawn at defensive edge build the gun , sight it in and work the best load for that gun?

By the way a heavy gun does not bother me, at least not yet!

 

Shawn has an absolute rock solid reputation with his canyon rifles. There is not much of a need to work up loads for the his rifles. Somewhere between 89-94 grains of H1000 under the 300 SMK and youre in buisness. It is easy to get frustrated with 'local smiths'. More than one has had me yanking my hair out. If they would just put their machining where their mouth is everyone would be happy. The nice thing about Carlock's Edge is they are true and legitimate 1K yard elk rifles and are MORE than accurate enough to be a 1K coues rig as well. IMHO, a local smith may be able to build you what you want and it may shoot like a dream or they may leave you frustrated. While I have never owned a Defensive Edge rifle, I have never talked to anybody that has owned them have anything negative to say about them. If I had several grand to spend on a new package, the DE canyon rifle in an A5 stock and jewel trigger would be my #1 pick.

 

M

[mason a]

Great thread , I think everyone had lots of good information on this topic, I too am wanting to build a great long range rifle , Actually I want someone else to build it and i will just buy it . I want a true 1000 yard elk gun ,but i will be using it more for coues than elk. I'm looking to spend between 5000-6000$ total. It seems like I get a different answer from everyone I talk with.

My first choice would be the 338 edge (canyon rifle pack)

2nd the best of the west custom gun in a 300 win mag

3rd choice have a local gun smith build it, mount a nightforce nsx scope,sight it in and work up the best loads for my hunting style. Is that to much to ask?

I don't have the time or knowledge to build the ultimate long range gun, Thats why I'm looking for a complete package ,where the gun has been sighted in.Also I would like them to work up the best load for that actual gun. I can do all the reloading once they have worked up the load. I worked up the load for my 30-06 and that was a lot of work ,but i'm glad i did . I almost feel like a lazy butt wanting a gunsmith to do all the work for me. I only shoot 100-200 rounds a year at long distances to prepare and build my confidence, And thats still probably not enough, but I, like lark feel like i'm a good shot, In fact I believe anybody that wants to shoot long range,better feel like they are a good shot.

Anyhow back to my point, What are some of your thoughts? Can a local gunsmith build what I'm looking for , or Is the 338 edge the best bang for the buck, and let Shawn at defensive edge build the gun , sight it in and work the best load for that gun?

By the way a heavy gun does not bother me, at least not yet!

 

Shawn has an absolute rock solid reputation with his canyon rifles. There is not much of a need to work up loads for the his rifles. Somewhere between 89-94 grains of H1000 under the 300 SMK and youre in buisness. It is easy to get frustrated with 'local smiths'. More than one has had me yanking my hair out. If they would just put their machining where their mouth is everyone would be happy. The nice thing about Carlock's Edge is they are true and legitimate 1K yard elk rifles and are MORE than accurate enough to be a 1K coues rig as well. IMHO, a local smith may be able to build you what you want and it may shoot like a dream or they may leave you frustrated. While I have never owned a Defensive Edge rifle, I have never talked to anybody that has owned them have anything negative to say about them. If I had several grand to spend on a new package, the DE canyon rifle in an A5 stock and jewel trigger would be my #1 pick.

 

M

Thanks for the reply 308 nut, I have done a lot of research on this long range hunting stuff , and the 338 edge from defensive edge ,comes highly recommended.

I just hope my wife does not read this forum, she might just shut me down on my plans. But she understands it's a healthy addiction, this hunting stuff!

 

[catclaw]

That is going to be a heavy rifle. You should decide what parameters you want before diving into this. I think you can do it with a 300 RUM as well. TAM had one built recently with an ABS barrel and it is a tack driver. Shoots 210 JLKs. Shot a 1000 yd group that would make for a 1000 yd BR rifle. I think it is pretty light too. There is a lot of good technology out there and I bet he didn't spend $5000 on it either. The ABS barrel will add about $500 to the price of the rifle so I am thinking you can get one for about $2500 + scope. Probably come out with a total package weighing under 8.5# that shoots like a million bucks.

 

Personally, if I went any bigger than a 300 mag, I would go to a Chey-tac based case such as the 375 or 338 versions. I think it is not needed for 1000 yds though. If you want to shoot elk at 1500 yds, it would be the way to go.

 

I have a custom 340 Wby for the real long stuff but it has a 12 twist barrel and won't shoot the 300s. To get the best utility out of a 338 Edge or snipe-tac you really need a 30" barrel. I needed something more portable than that!

[youngbuck]

Ive looked into a lot of 338 variations, allen express, edge, and my 338 winmag. From the numbers i was crunching, my 300 RUM runs outa steam pretty quick (8-900), Im comfortable shooting that to about 800 under perfect conditions. Ive chosen on the edge built by shawn after talking with him and 308. The Allen express or snipetacs are neat and Im sure can shoot but I think everything they can do, an edge could do. Im all for hot rod calibers and those are about as hot rod as you can get. The thing that sold me on the edge was the reloading for it. Shawn has loads with EXTREMELY low velocity spreads. those low spread help a lot down range 1k+ on calculating drop. The 338 I would like to build would be a truck/or quad gun. It would be heavy maybe 14lb but my lightweight RUM could still go anywhere and shoot a long ways. I know of guys with 20lb+ lapua guns. I like the bullet choice in 30 cal but 338 are somewhat limited. Im a huge fan of accubond repeatability in how they fly and what they do at 5-800 yeard on coues. Ive been slowly saving for an edge build, same way I did for my RUM. This might take me a little longer. Good thing is in this day in age its not all hear say. People can prove what they can do with their rifle. There are alot of proof for shawn and kirbys ultra long range rifle, and plenty of reading material to keep me busy in the mean time.

[drgonzales]

Awesome input. Nice to see so many folks passionate about shooting and accuracy. In my opinion shooting is more of an art not a science because there are so many variables, almost none exacting. In other words there are 1000 ways to skin a cat, chose 1.

 

Just to keep the ball rolling. How do y'all feel about barrel lengths. Check out the link below.

 

http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/

 

 

 

[308Nut]

The thing that sold me on the edge was the reloading for it. Shawn has loads with EXTREMELY low velocity spreads. those low spread help a lot down range 1k+ on calculating drop.

 

 

I think you are making a great decision and for the reason above. I had a hard time believing how good it really was because in the sport of longrange you hear how great something is and when you try it, you are left dissapointed and frustrated. Personally I think alot of guys just say it is awesome because they have so much time and money invested in something that they dont want to embarrass themselves. When I would hear about all the good things about the edge, I chalked it up to another 'too good to be true' senario. After stumbling into owning an edge, I was more than suprised to find that everybody was pretty spot on. Carlocks famous recipe of 92-94 grains of H1000 under the 300 SMK's supposedly offered supreme accuracy and super low velocity spreads. Some guys in more recent times were finding that 89-90 grains was working as 92-94 was too hot. Come to find out some of the newer lot#'s of H1000 were a touch faster than before. When I worked up my load for my edge, my sweet spot was 91.3 and have since found a sweeter spot at 89.5 grains. So, the famous load really is a good caliber specifec sweet spot. This saves time money and throat life by cutting down on the development. Starting at 87 or 88 grains and working up in .5 grain increments untill the sweet spot is found will work with 99% of the edges out there. Also when my brass was fresh, the velocity spreads were between 8-12 FPS for each 3 shot group. Once the necks get work hardened a bit and they become somewhat inconsistent, the velocity spreads become more like up to 20 FPS which still is not bad. Anealing the necks would solve this problem.

 

In regards to bbl lengths, most would agree that 30" is the best all around length for an edge. I have never owned a 30" edge so I cannot say. Mine is 28" and she works good enough for me. I have ran the 300's as high as 2800 FPS but my optimum accuracy is 2725 which is about 75-100 FPS slower than what guys are finding optimum in their 30" tubes.

 

Below is a pic of my edge. She shoots as good as she looks.

 

 

 

[DesertDiesel]

big heavy barrels don't give you much unless your shooting a lot of rounds at one time. the extra weight can be a benefit for recoil but they do very little for shot to shot accuracy. heavy barrels dissipate heat better, but have very little accuracy benefit in a hunting rifle. what is inside the barrel; lands, grooves, throat, rifle twist, chamber, are 10x as important as what's on the outside. i made a .300 win mag last summer that is a legitimate 1000 yd rifle and i had a fairly skinny schnieder barrel installed on a model 70. i killed a muley at 565 and a bull elk at 900 with it this past fall. with a good rest it is amazing what it will do at any range. 800 yards isn't even hard. with scope and everything it tips out at about 9 pounds. used the original wood stock. leupold vari x 3, 6.5x20 with a custom retical. i purposely had the barrel machined down quite skinny just for the weight. senderos are stupid heavy. real accurate, but real heavy. good rifle for the price. another option for weight is a christensen. my son has a 300 ultra that is pretty amazing. but you don't have to go with a real heavy rifle to get one accurate. good barrel, good trigger, good scope and ammo that works in it is the trick. Lark.

 

 

Huh? What the Sam heck are you talking about? What did you just say Willis?

 

You are simply flat out wrong on this one Lark. Provided all things being equal, a heavy barrel will out preform a skinny barrel 9.999999 times out of 10. The advantage comes from making the barrel stiffer, ie less flexible. As for heat, the barrel heats from the inside out so it makes no sense that a heavy barrel permits rapid firing more so than a skinny barrel. A heavy barrel does dissipate heat faster than a skinny barrel however. All that means is that you needn't wait as long between strings of fire to cool the barrel.

 

As for the military and police sniper's, I can speak from experience & not from Soldier of Fiction Magazine. We carried heavy barreled weapons because they were more accurate P. E. R. I. O. D. End of story.

 

There are a lot of great barrel makers out there, Krieger, Hart, Douglas, Lilja, just to name a few. I also had a Schneider on my SR-90, didn't care for it much. The SR-90 on the team with a Lilja simply shot circles around the Schneider. But that is just one man's experience with two different rifles, do what you will with it.

 

I've spoken with Dan Lilja a few times about the subject. He is extremely knowledgeable about barrels. If I was having a custom rifle built, I'd call him (you can find his # on his web page), tell him what your making and in what caliber and simply follow his advice.

 

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/longr...tical_rifle.htm

 

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barre...of_accuracy.htm

[drgonzales]

308nut, just curious how much does the rifle in the photo weigh?

[catclaw]

big heavy barrels don't give you much unless your shooting a lot of rounds at one time. the extra weight can be a benefit for recoil but they do very little for shot to shot accuracy. heavy barrels dissipate heat better, but have very little accuracy benefit in a hunting rifle. what is inside the barrel; lands, grooves, throat, rifle twist, chamber, are 10x as important as what's on the outside. i made a .300 win mag last summer that is a legitimate 1000 yd rifle and i had a fairly skinny schnieder barrel installed on a model 70. i killed a muley at 565 and a bull elk at 900 with it this past fall. with a good rest it is amazing what it will do at any range. 800 yards isn't even hard. with scope and everything it tips out at about 9 pounds. used the original wood stock. leupold vari x 3, 6.5x20 with a custom retical. i purposely had the barrel machined down quite skinny just for the weight. senderos are stupid heavy. real accurate, but real heavy. good rifle for the price. another option for weight is a christensen. my son has a 300 ultra that is pretty amazing. but you don't have to go with a real heavy rifle to get one accurate. good barrel, good trigger, good scope and ammo that works in it is the trick. Lark.

 

 

Huh? What the Sam heck are you talking about? What did you just say Willis?

 

You are simply flat out wrong on this one Lark. Provided all things being equal, a heavy barrel will out preform a skinny barrel 9.999999 times out of 10. The advantage comes from making the barrel stiffer, ie less flexible. As for heat, the barrel heats from the inside out so it makes no sense that a heavy barrel permits rapid firing more so than a skinny barrel. A heavy barrel does dissipate heat faster than a skinny barrel however. All that means is that you needn't wait as long between strings of fire to cool the barrel.

 

As for the military and police sniper's, I can speak from experience & not from Soldier of Fiction Magazine. We carried heavy barreled weapons because they were more accurate P. E. R. I. O. D. End of story.

 

There are a lot of great barrel makers out there, Krieger, Hart, Douglas, Lilja, just to name a few. I also had a Schneider on my SR-90, didn't care for it much. The SR-90 on the team with a Lilja simply shot circles around the Schneider. But that is just one man's experience with two different rifles, do what you will with it.

 

I've spoken with Dan Lilja a few times about the subject. He is extremely knowledgeable about barrels. If I was having a custom rifle built, I'd call him (you can find his # on his web page), tell him what your making and in what caliber and simply follow his advice.

 

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/longr...tical_rifle.htm

 

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barre...of_accuracy.htm

 

 

 

Phil- don't drink the Lilja Koolaid. This guy is as much a knucklehead as the rest. My Schneider barrels have been fantastic. My one Hart is a junker. Gotta have more than one sample to make an informed decision. Lilja is the same goofball that talked my buddy into a 7 twist, 3 groove barrel for his 7mag. After 80 rounds it wouldn't shoot the thin jacket 180 Bergers- would blow them up. By 200 rounds, it wouldn't shoot the heavy jacket Bergers. Now he is stuck with Accubonds as everything else blows up in mid-air.

 

Berger recommends a 9 twist for that bullet. Lilja talked him into a 7 twist. I told him that Dan probably didn't have a different button for 3-groove 7mm. He called Dan and asked him- he didn't! He simply talked this guy into buying the ONLY 3-groove barrel he could provide. Dan thought he knew more about it than Walt Berger and Bryan Litz. Dan makes some of the best 22 RIMFIRE barrels in the world but I wouldn't buy one of his other barrels on a dare!

 

I have talked to him enough times to form this opinion. He makes a better barrel than me, but he is a salesman and does NOT have the consumer's best interest in mind.

[firstcoueswas80]

Great thread , I think everyone had lots of good information on this topic, I too am wanting to build a great long range rifle , Actually I want someone else to build it and i will just buy it . I want a true 1000 yard elk gun ,but i will be using it more for coues than elk. I'm looking to spend between 5000-6000$ total. It seems like I get a different answer from everyone I talk with.

My first choice would be the 338 edge (canyon rifle pack)

2nd the best of the west custom gun in a 300 win mag

3rd choice have a local gun smith build it, mount a nightforce nsx scope,sight it in and work up the best loads for my hunting style. Is that to much to ask?

I don't have the time or knowledge to build the ultimate long range gun, Thats why I'm looking for a complete package ,where the gun has been sighted in.Also I would like them to work up the best load for that actual gun. I can do all the reloading once they have worked up the load. I worked up the load for my 30-06 and that was a lot of work ,but i'm glad i did . I almost feel like a lazy butt wanting a gunsmith to do all the work for me. I only shoot 100-200 rounds a year at long distances to prepare and build my confidence, And thats still probably not enough, but I, like lark feel like i'm a good shot, In fact I believe anybody that wants to shoot long range,better feel like they are a good shot.

Anyhow back to my point, What are some of your thoughts? Can a local gunsmith build what I'm looking for , or Is the 338 edge the best bang for the buck, and let Shawn at defensive edge build the gun , sight it in and work the best load for that gun?

By the way a heavy gun does not bother me, at least not yet!

 

 

First of all, if you want a "1000 elk or coues rig" and you only shoot 100-200 rounds a year you need to atleast triple the amount of rounds you shoot. There is no way in helll you can consistently kill out to 1000 only shooting 5-10 boxes of shells a year! I shoot more than that on a dozen coyotes every winter!

[mason a]

Great thread , I think everyone had lots of good information on this topic, I too am wanting to build a great long range rifle , Actually I want someone else to build it and i will just buy it . I want a true 1000 yard elk gun ,but i will be using it more for coues than elk. I'm looking to spend between 5000-6000$ total. It seems like I get a different answer from everyone I talk with.

My first choice would be the 338 edge (canyon rifle pack)

2nd the best of the west custom gun in a 300 win mag

3rd choice have a local gun smith build it, mount a nightforce nsx scope,sight it in and work up the best loads for my hunting style. Is that to much to ask?

I don't have the time or knowledge to build the ultimate long range gun, Thats why I'm looking for a complete package ,where the gun has been sighted in.Also I would like them to work up the best load for that actual gun. I can do all the reloading once they have worked up the load. I worked up the load for my 30-06 and that was a lot of work ,but i'm glad i did . I almost feel like a lazy butt wanting a gunsmith to do all the work for me. I only shoot 100-200 rounds a year at long distances to prepare and build my confidence, And thats still probably not enough, but I, like lark feel like i'm a good shot, In fact I believe anybody that wants to shoot long range,better feel like they are a good shot.

Anyhow back to my point, What are some of your thoughts? Can a local gunsmith build what I'm looking for , or Is the 338 edge the best bang for the buck, and let Shawn at defensive edge build the gun , sight it in and work the best load for that gun?

By the way a heavy gun does not bother me, at least not yet!

 

 

First of all, if you want a "1000 elk or coues rig" and you only shoot 100-200 rounds a year you need to atleast triple the amount of rounds you shoot. There is no way in helll you can consistently kill out to 1000 only shooting 5-10 boxes of shells a year! I shoot more than that on a dozen coyotes every winter!

I agree 100-200 shots per year is probably not enough, I envy the fact that you have that much time to enjoy your passion. I used to think making a 500 yard kill shot was crazy , But now i'm very confident at that range. Now I want to take that out to 1000 yards.And believe me I know, there is a HUGE difference between 500 and 1000 yards, I will need to find more time to put in behind the gun ,before I have 100% confidence at that range.Thats why I am also looking into the 338 edge with a nightforce scope. Also as you guys all know, that just becouse some bum goes out and buys himself a high dollar long range rifle,does not make him instantly a long range hunter capable of dropping an animal with one shot.But i'm going to work my way up to it. There are 5 or 6 of you guys on this particular thread who know more about this stuff than I do , Thats why i'm learning what i can from your posts.

My brother thinks i'm crazy to be spending this kinda money ( he says just sneak in closer like a real hunter).But he also knows that a few years ago I missed a chance of a lifetime on a huge coues because my only shot was over 700 yards, Thats when this crazy passion began!

By the way does anyone now rounds i can shoot with the edge before i need a new barrel, if I don't load them hot?

Also I just wanted to clarify 100-200 rounds was only through my long range set up, I do a lot of practicing with my 22mag pistol, It's great practice and a lot cheaper and its fun.

[DesertDiesel]

big heavy barrels don't give you much unless your shooting a lot of rounds at one time. the extra weight can be a benefit for recoil but they do very little for shot to shot accuracy. heavy barrels dissipate heat better, but have very little accuracy benefit in a hunting rifle. what is inside the barrel; lands, grooves, throat, rifle twist, chamber, are 10x as important as what's on the outside. i made a .300 win mag last summer that is a legitimate 1000 yd rifle and i had a fairly skinny schnieder barrel installed on a model 70. i killed a muley at 565 and a bull elk at 900 with it this past fall. with a good rest it is amazing what it will do at any range. 800 yards isn't even hard. with scope and everything it tips out at about 9 pounds. used the original wood stock. leupold vari x 3, 6.5x20 with a custom retical. i purposely had the barrel machined down quite skinny just for the weight. senderos are stupid heavy. real accurate, but real heavy. good rifle for the price. another option for weight is a christensen. my son has a 300 ultra that is pretty amazing. but you don't have to go with a real heavy rifle to get one accurate. good barrel, good trigger, good scope and ammo that works in it is the trick. Lark.

 

 

Huh? What the Sam heck are you talking about? What did you just say Willis?

 

You are simply flat out wrong on this one Lark. Provided all things being equal, a heavy barrel will out preform a skinny barrel 9.999999 times out of 10. The advantage comes from making the barrel stiffer, ie less flexible. As for heat, the barrel heats from the inside out so it makes no sense that a heavy barrel permits rapid firing more so than a skinny barrel. A heavy barrel does dissipate heat faster than a skinny barrel however. All that means is that you needn't wait as long between strings of fire to cool the barrel.

 

As for the military and police sniper's, I can speak from experience & not from Soldier of Fiction Magazine. We carried heavy barreled weapons because they were more accurate P. E. R. I. O. D. End of story.

 

There are a lot of great barrel makers out there, Krieger, Hart, Douglas, Lilja, just to name a few. I also had a Schneider on my SR-90, didn't care for it much. The SR-90 on the team with a Lilja simply shot circles around the Schneider. But that is just one man's experience with two different rifles, do what you will with it.

 

I've spoken with Dan Lilja a few times about the subject. He is extremely knowledgeable about barrels. If I was having a custom rifle built, I'd call him (you can find his # on his web page), tell him what your making and in what caliber and simply follow his advice.

 

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/longr...tical_rifle.htm

 

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barre...of_accuracy.htm

 

 

 

Phil- don't drink the Lilja Koolaid. This guy is as much a knucklehead as the rest. My Schneider barrels have been fantastic. My one Hart is a junker. Gotta have more than one sample to make an informed decision. Lilja is the same goofball that talked my buddy into a 7 twist, 3 groove barrel for his 7mag. After 80 rounds it wouldn't shoot the thin jacket 180 Bergers- would blow them up. By 200 rounds, it wouldn't shoot the heavy jacket Bergers. Now he is stuck with Accubonds as everything else blows up in mid-air.

 

Berger recommends a 9 twist for that bullet. Lilja talked him into a 7 twist. I told him that Dan probably didn't have a different button for 3-groove 7mm. He called Dan and asked him- he didn't! He simply talked this guy into buying the ONLY 3-groove barrel he could provide. Dan thought he knew more about it than Walt Berger and Bryan Litz. Dan makes some of the best 22 RIMFIRE barrels in the world but I wouldn't buy one of his other barrels on a dare!

 

I have talked to him enough times to form this opinion. He makes a better barrel than me, but he is a salesman and does NOT have the consumer's best interest in mind.

 

 

Dennis - I'm somewhat shocked by your post. In over a decade in the sniping community, those are the first negative words I've ever heard about Dan Lilja or Hart for that matter. I understand the whole, "Gotta have more than one sample to make an informed decision" line of thinking, but I don't have endless amounts of cash to buy several barrels from several craftsmen in order to conduct my own tests. I will simply rely on my own experience as well as those I've worked with and trust with the same shooting background. Do some research on Lilja. Look at all the world championships people have won using his barrels. If he was the dumb butt you make him out to be, his company would have failed years ago. Yet he has built and earned a reputation as being a world class barrel maker.

 

I will let Lilja's reputation stand for itself over your "buddy's" experience. Furthermore, I've personally used Lilja and have been extremely impressed with his barrels. So don't mind me if I continue to drink the "Lilja Koolaid."

[308Nut]

308nut, just curious how much does the rifle in the photo weigh?

 

10# 3oz scoped (without bi-pod) It is a bit light for edge recoil. At least with 300 grain bullets. For this reason I switched to the 225's. The recoil is much more comfortable.

[.270]

"In over a decade in the sniping community, "

 

wait a minute, you guys live in a commune of snipers? that is just, well, weird. Lark.

[308Nut]

Phil- don't drink the Lilja Koolaid. This guy is as much a knucklehead as the rest. My Schneider barrels have been fantastic. My one Hart is a junker. Gotta have more than one sample to make an informed decision.

 

That is the exact opposite experiences that I have had with both Hart and Lilja both in barrel quality, shootability and expertise.

 

BTW, if your Hart truely is a junker, Hart will replace it. It is impossible for ANY barrel maker to produce a super accurate barrel with 100% regularity. Steel is steel and sometimes it just wont cooperate. Good barrel makers realize this and offer replacments for the occasional junker including Hart. Most of the time however, when a barrel is believed to be a junker it is improper installation of it or other components that make for a turd. For every 10 rifles that wont shoot about 2 of them will be due to turd barrels.

 

Not saying you have not had a bad experience with Hart or Lilja, just offering another point of view.

 

those are the first negative words I've ever heard about Dan Lilja or Hart for that matter. I understand the whole, "Gotta have more than one sample to make an informed decision" line of thinking, but I don't have endless amounts of cash to buy several barrels from several craftsmen in order to conduct my own tests. I will simply rely on my own experience as well as those I've worked with and trust with the same shooting background. Do some research on Lilja. Look at all the world championships people have won using his barrels. If he was the dumb butt you make him out to be, his company would have failed years ago. Yet he has built and earned a reputation as being a world class barrel maker.

 

I will let Lilja's reputation stand for itself over your "buddy's" experience. Furthermore, I've personally used Lilja and have been extremely impressed with his barrels. So don't mind me if I continue to drink the "Lilja Koolaid."

 

+1

 

Well said.