Long range rigs

[drgonzales]

I am trying to build a long range / saddle / be able to carry all day rifle. How much weight is too much too carry all day? The bigger, heavier setups are nice when you are lying down on a bipod getting ready to shoot at an unsuspecting animal (i.e. the perfect set up). What about when you are walking or riding down the trail and something gets brushed out and is on the move? Are some of these rigs too big to whip out of your backpacks or saddle scabbard and take a good shot? I am interested in the Remington sendero in the 7mm, but it may be too heavy for my likes. Anyone know how much the gunwerks LR-1000 weighs? I know how much they cost!!! yikes!

 

Is there a happy medium?

 

 

[firstcoueswas80]

I have found about 10 pounds to be pretty close to the max...

[.270]

big heavy barrels don't give you much unless your shooting a lot of rounds at one time. the extra weight can be a benefit for recoil but they do very little for shot to shot accuracy. heavy barrels dissipate heat better, but have very little accuracy benefit in a hunting rifle. what is inside the barrel; lands, grooves, throat, rifle twist, chamber, are 10x as important as what's on the outside. i made a .300 win mag last summer that is a legitimate 1000 yd rifle and i had a fairly skinny schnieder barrel installed on a model 70. i killed a muley at 565 and a bull elk at 900 with it this past fall. with a good rest it is amazing what it will do at any range. 800 yards isn't even hard. with scope and everything it tips out at about 9 pounds. used the original wood stock. leupold vari x 3, 6.5x20 with a custom retical. i purposely had the barrel machined down quite skinny just for the weight. senderos are stupid heavy. real accurate, but real heavy. good rifle for the price. another option for weight is a christensen. my son has a 300 ultra that is pretty amazing. but you don't have to go with a real heavy rifle to get one accurate. good barrel, good trigger, good scope and ammo that works in it is the trick. Lark.

[willhunt4coues]

Try looking into the H&R rifles. They are single shot and not tooo heavy but GREAT for a saddle.

[azhuntnut]

I use the Thompson Center Encores for most of my hunting now. I know it isn't a great rifle for a fast follow up shot, but it sure makes you a better shot. It is lighter than most of the bolts I have owned in the past. Plus you can change up the caliber quite easily and there are several custom barrel makers that for the Encore. David

[mason a]

big heavy barrels don't give you much unless your shooting a lot of rounds at one time. the extra weight can be a benefit for recoil but they do very little for shot to shot accuracy. heavy barrels dissipate heat better, but have very little accuracy benefit in a hunting rifle. what is inside the barrel; lands, grooves, throat, rifle twist, chamber, are 10x as important as what's on the outside. i made a .300 win mag last summer that is a legitimate 1000 yd rifle and i had a fairly skinny schnieder barrel installed on a model 70. i killed a muley at 565 and a bull elk at 900 with it this past fall. with a good rest it is amazing what it will do at any range. 800 yards isn't even hard. with scope and everything it tips out at about 9 pounds. used the original wood stock. leupold vari x 3, 6.5x20 with a custom retical. i purposely had the barrel machined down quite skinny just for the weight. senderos are stupid heavy. real accurate, but real heavy. good rifle for the price. another option for weight is a christensen. my son has a 300 ultra that is pretty amazing. but you don't have to go with a real heavy rifle to get one accurate. good barrel, good trigger, good scope and ammo that works in it is the trick. Lark.

This is great advice,I might just add one more thing and that would be a muzzle break if you are shooting a light weight gun, I know they are loud and the guys at best of the west don't recommend them .just my 2 cents

[308Nut]

For average shooters hunting at average ranges, gun weight is of little concern. When you take the leap to 'longrange', the rules must change. The priorities change from carry weight to maximizing accuracy and consistency even under field conditions, espescially the 'cold bore shot'.

 

Contrary to popular belief, heavier barrels DO have a positive affect on shooting even when only one or two shots are taken. You dont need to fire alot of rounds to benefit from a heavy barrel. That said, there needs to be a balance between heavy and carry-able. IMHO, a Sendero contour that is fluted is about as good a balance as you can get. There are some excellent lightweight components for rifles these days that dont sacrifice durability. You can save weight there. The barrel however is not the best place to do it even though it is the most effective place to reduce weight. It also will depend on how far you want to shoot and what size targets you are shooting at.

 

Ask yourself, is this a 600 yard elk rifle or a 1000 yard elk rifle? Is this a 1000 yard coues rifle or a 600 yard coues rifle. Obviously for a 600 yard elk rifle you will need a wee bit less accuracy than for a 1000 yard coues rifle. You will find out real quick what your accuracy requirements are when you ask yourself those questions.

 

For a LEGITIMATE 1000 yard big game rifle, (taking the carrying of the rifle out of the equasion) lightweight will do nothing to help you when it comes to accuracy, consistency and forgivness during the shot(s). Weight, although cumbersome at times, will help even if it is minimal. Then again, when it comes to consistent 1000 yard shooting, you need ALL the help you can get. The fewer forces working against you the better and IMHO, the help you gain from weight is more than minimal.

 

If you watch your p's and q's, you can have a scoped rifle weighing in right at 10# with a Sendero contour that is fluted. Another decent heavy to mid-weight contour are the 'palma' contours. These are a great balance between weight and ridgidity.

 

Another thing you must concider is that no two people are the same and the word 'heavy' is a VERY subjective term. One hunters comfort zone will be totally different than another. A couple of years ago, my dall sheep rifle was 12# and I did one sheep hunt with a 16# rig. 16# was way too much but it got the job done. It was the only rifle I had at the time as my 308 had a burned out barrel. Now, after too many seasons of packing 12# rifles into sheep country, I have moved on to 10#. 10# so far is much better. I am sure that the older I get, the more weight that will have to come off. However, for hunting Arizona country for the most part, 12# would be OK since I dont have to fight near the amount of THICK brush and have to swing it around all day and hump up and down 30-40 degree slopes while gaining and droping anywhere from 1000-4000' all day for days on end. For an AZ huntiing trip, even 14# is managable for me since most of the hunting is done behind the tri-pod and the carrying happens in short bursts.

 

Another thing is the bigger the bullet and the more the powder, the heavier rifle you will need to tame the recoil for not only your comfort but also the rifle will not be very consistent when it bounces around during the shot. IMHO, with a muzzle brake, a 10-12# rifle in a 300 win mag is about right where as a 338 Lapua running 300 grain bullets should be 16+ pounds even with a brake. A 10-12# 7mm-08 or 308 without a brake is pretty decent as well and if you really wanted to cut that down to 8-9# that would work fair enough even though (IMHO) 10-12# in those calibers is better.

[drgonzales]

Thanks for all of the input.

 

The average weight of a sendero in the 7mm mag caliber is about 8.55 lbs. My scope weighs 1.27 lbs. Altogether with rings is about 10 lbs. Not too bad.

 

 

[catclaw]

big heavy barrels don't give you much unless your shooting a lot of rounds at one time. the extra weight can be a benefit for recoil but they do very little for shot to shot accuracy. heavy barrels dissipate heat better, but have very little accuracy benefit in a hunting rifle. what is inside the barrel; lands, grooves, throat, rifle twist, chamber, are 10x as important as what's on the outside. i made a .300 win mag last summer that is a legitimate 1000 yd rifle and i had a fairly skinny schnieder barrel installed on a model 70. i killed a muley at 565 and a bull elk at 900 with it this past fall. with a good rest it is amazing what it will do at any range. 800 yards isn't even hard. with scope and everything it tips out at about 9 pounds. used the original wood stock. leupold vari x 3, 6.5x20 with a custom retical. i purposely had the barrel machined down quite skinny just for the weight. senderos are stupid heavy. real accurate, but real heavy. good rifle for the price. another option for weight is a christensen. my son has a 300 ultra that is pretty amazing. but you don't have to go with a real heavy rifle to get one accurate. good barrel, good trigger, good scope and ammo that works in it is the trick. Lark.

 

 

For every light contour barrel that can shoot that good, there are 10 heavier contour barrels that shoot better. Rare is the #1 contour rifle that will shoot 3/4" groups. Another advantage to a heavier contour is that it will shoot different bullets to a similar point of impact. A light barrel is good for about 2 shots and then it is too hot and will start walking. I guess you can take this all into consideration.

 

I just built a long range rifle for myself and it weighs 9 lbs all up. This is pretty heavy for a whitetail rifle in my book. Can't want to carry anything much heavier! I could have shaved about 3/4 of a pound with an ADL style magazine and a 1" scope tube. It works for me though.

 

 

 

[.270]

i only plan on shooting one or two times when i'm hunting anyway. like i say, i killed a purty nice bull at a shade over 900 yards with it last year. one shot. i can shoot 1/2" groups at 200 yards all day long. inside an inch at 300. i do have to wait for the barrel to cool after about 3 rounds. this ain't a target rig. it's strictly for killin'. google on the name Carlos Hathcock. see what he did with a stock 700 adl '06 and a redfield scope bought off the shelf in a sporting goods store in saigon. last i read they put his rifle in a museum. most target shooters have fat contour barrels because they don't get hot as fast. but once they get hot, they take a lot longer to cool. when they get real hot they pour cold water on em and start over. but one of the main reasons is they don't have to spend a buncha time and money doing machine work to turn the barrel down. thread it, chamber it, spin it on. and stuff like putting grooves in the barrel doesn't do much other than take a little weight off. does next to nothing as far as cooling. looks kinda cool. if folks wanna pack big fat barrels around, that's fine. i have several. i have a literall needle driver .22/.250. i seldom take it after coyotes. too heavy to catch up with runnin' coyotes with it on a regular basis. but that ain't a long range deal. 4 to 500 yards is all i can do regular on runnin' coyotes. my preference is a lighter rifle. with a muzzlebrake. that shoots really, really good. but then again, since Carlos died, i'm about the best shot there is too, so i have an unfair advantage. there's lotsa ways to skin a cat. i prefer the lightest catskinner i dan get. Lark.

[308Nut]

700 adl hugh..............

 

Gunny used anything but a 700 adl. In fact he used a model 70 in 30-06 that utilized a 'medium heavy' contour for most of his work in Vietnam. Towards the end of his career he used an M40 in 308. If you know anything about the M40 it has anything but an adl barrel contour. In fact they are down right heavy. If light barrels were the cat's meow, law enforcment and military would be all over them. Most FBI and secret service snipers take one shot also. Ever see one of those guys using spaggetti barrels on the job?

[.270]

a great deal of the first rifles the marine snipers used in viet nam were purchased in saigon right off the shelf of local sporting goods stores. scopes too. the sniper program had been inactive for many years and there weren't any sniper rifles. the target rifles the rifle teams used were too heavy and bulky for combat use. and they were mostly single shots. he used a 700 remington with redfield and then an unertl scope for some time before more suitable rifles were available. even after they got the m40's and model 70 sniper rifles, those rifle paled in comparison to the rifles we're talking about here. carlos, mawhinney, waldron, england, they all used rifles that are junk compared to what is available now. and made spectacular shots at guys that shot back. the point i'm trying to make is that if you have the know how and experience you don't need all the stuff that is available now. those guys usually all packed an m-14 with them too and killed a buncha folks with them also. if these guys did have access to laser range finders and calibrated scopes and handmade barrells and so on, you can bet your butt they would have used them. but they didn't and they still got the job done. i don't care for heavy rifles and it is possible to shoot stuff with with a skinny barrel. if you do like fat barrels, that's fine. i'm not bashing anyone for it. like you seem to want to bash me. too many folks seem to think that if you don't have a rifle that hurts to pack it won't hit. it has more to do with the internal part of the barrel than it does the outside. fat barrels have their place. my rifle just doesn't happen to be one of those places. shooting targets from a bench where you only have to pack your rifle from the car to the range is a lot different than punkin' one around in the hills. go ahead and pack around your heavy rifle. i'll use what i use and be just as happy. the guy that started this thread had a question about rifles. i told him what my opinion and experience was. then you said my gun had to weigh 12 pounds. guess i'll have to put tire weights on it. shoot what you want and i'll shoot what i want. but don't tell me i'm wrong when i'm not. Lark.

[308Nut]

Easy there big fella, I assumed a guy who can dish it out by the gallon could recieve a little friendly fire.

 

I am sorry if you take all of this as bashing. That is honestly the furthest thing on my agenda. I understand that I have my preferences and you have yours. I honestly repect that. I guess I get carried away when you are involved in a thread. Your unusual outlook and humor on things encites me to return "colorfull" controbutions to the 'lively' discussion. In this case, I will admit I have a STRONG opinion on barrels and I certainly expressed that opinion strongly. Maybe I got carried away and for that I appologize if I offended you or if I came accross as bashing you which was not my intent. We all know you like to BS and I was just engaging in the BS. When it comes to barrels, I never said you were wrong, I just meant I thought that heavier barrels were better when 'better' is a very subjective term. Like I said, I realize I got carried away with my opinion. The only thing I really felt you were wrong about was Hathcock's rifle make and model.

 

Stay colorfull Lark.

 

M

[joeybari]

I’m not picking sides but I would go with 308 opinions.

I am some what of an armature lone range shooter for the past 2 years and 308 has it right on the mark. It’s the little thing that make a big difference when you’re shooting long distance (just like a 2 mil wind does not make a difference at 200 yards but at 600 to 1000 yards it’s a elephant).

When it comes to the sport of long ranges shooting (you can apply everything you learn to hunting especially Coues deer hunts) the info is out there for you to enjoy and intrepid.

But for the most part you will find that a heavy barrel is the way to go just read what 308 wrote its spot on. Also there other things to the equation that you may want to take into account. The 7mm ultra Mag Sandaro is a great gun. I think for 1200 dollars you really can’t go wrong a good flat shooting gun. Mc mullein stock, fluted barrel, comes with muzzle brake and Remington’s classic tested bolt action.

(You need to get a trigger pull)

The price of ammunition is very expensive and hard to FIND

It is heavy I had a 300 ulta mag and man after the fourth day of carrying it around you want to go to your childhood BB gun and I’m in really good shape.

You will need a lot of bench time to get acclimated to the rifle which means $$$$$.

 

 

 

[.270]

well, ok. when capt ed land started the scout/snipers marines in veitnam, there had been no official snipers in the military for around a decade. the regular military didn't even like them because they were considered out and out killers and after wwII they were just sort of forgoten about and after korea they were pretty much done away with. when carlos first went to vietnam the m-40 hadn't even been dreamed up yet. the scout/snipers had almost everything to do with it's development. the first ones were ordered in late '66, the better part of a after he arrived there. i think before '66 was over they had some in service. the m-40 was built on the scout/sniper ideas of what they wanted. the standard arm then was the m-14. not a great sniper rifle. they were so dissapointed with what they had to shoot they actually went into saigon and bought rifles of the shelf and used them for awhile. his model 70 was also an off the shelf rifle. it was winchester's version of a sniper rifle, but it was basically stock. after the m-40s were available all the snipers used them. they also usually always carried an m-14 so they could have fulla auto capability in case they got caught. the spotter always carried something full auto also. carlos only weighed about 120 pounds or so and he was like 5'10". he musta been a strong sob. the m-14 is what chuck mawhinney made his famous 16 shot, 16 dead vc floating down the river legend with. he saw them preparing to cross the river so he waited until they took all their clothes off and had them and their weapons on their heads to keep them dry and when they all got out in the river he started on one end of the line and went to the other. these guys were absolute badass and liked what they did. and knew their weapons. but as far as accuracy there are hundreds of guys now with no military experience that could be just as deadly because of the advancement in rifles. the current m-40's are fitted with schnieder barrels. made right here in the nazi racist state of Arizonia. up in payson. i also happen to have a schnieder on Farkiller, the resurection. in .300 win mag. and it is an absolute amazing shooter. i had so much fun tinkering with it that i had to knock it off because i'da wore it out before deer season even started. i have a prostetic joint in my right shoulder. big long spike down the arm bone with a a titanium ball on the end of it. sawed off the end of my shoulder blade and glued a new teflon socket in. then tied it all back together with enough kevlar cord to land a marlin. it's really good and is almost completely pain free. but it can get tender. i put a simms pad on it and had the gunsmith install a muzzlebrake. i also had him put a really long barrel on it so i could good get velocity with less powder, further decreasing the recoil. it still bucks pretty good, but nothing like it could. with it loaded and the sling installed it's just under 9 pounds. left the factory wood stock on it. it shot so good i never even bothered to bed it. Lark