Charleau Gap Destruction

[coues7]

For anyone who doesn't know about this here is the AZ Star Article This makes me absolutely sick to my stomach. If there is a way to prosecute the FS for doing this I think it should be done!

 

For those of you that have hunted and/or enjoyed the beauty of Charleau Gap, the ol' rock are being destroyed. I'm sure more traffic in there won't help things.....you'll now be able to take your Geo Metro in there.

[audsley]

Hunters I've talked to so far have mixed feelings about this, as do I. The FS is re-building two places along that road that have probably discouraged a lot of hunters from going into the Charoleau Gap area, which is prime Coues country. Quads could and did go around the bad spots, so the area was only really open to 4WD adventurers and people on quads. I've done it in a shortbed Toyota but didn't enjoy it a bit. In fact, at the lower one there was oil on the rocks where someone had apparently punctured an oil pan. I'm a hunter, not a 4WD technical expert, and I don't own a quad, so I was discouraged from going there because of the road. Assuming there are others like me, the bad road probably served to keep hunter densities low in that area, and those who are accustomed to hunting there probably aren't happy about the change.

 

On the other hand, legal access to the forest is a serious problem and isn't getting any better. There aren't many motorized access points for the Coronado Nat. Forest, and not even that many walk-in places. This causes hunter over-crowding in the places that do have access.

 

At the Coronado FS planning meetings, the public told the FS that access was its chief concern. Looks like they're doing something about that by taking a road that previously was usable by only a select few and making it usable for everyone.

 

I'm not mad at the FS for doing this. I believe we'll just have to be vigilant to littering, off-roading driving (illegal under travel mgmt rules) and other irresponsbile behaviors and demand that AGFD, the FS and the sheriff's dept. be available to respond to reports of violations by cell phone. (Cell phone service should be available for the first few miles of the route.)

[bowsniper]

That sucks! The FS gave the real reason that they are doing it : "the rancher permittee here, our range conservationist". That means public land welfare ranching. When has the FS ever cut a road for "weekenders and hikers and birdwatchers"!! Gimme a break!

 

Mark

 

 

[Chef]

That was the funnest part of the trail.

Makes ya pucker on the way up, looking straight at sky,

then a hard turn to the left so you didn't fall off the cliff!

 

[Diamondbackaz]

...you'll now be able to take your Geo Metro in there.

 

 

Not hardly

 

[Diamondbackaz]

That sucks! The FS gave the real reason that they are doing it : "the rancher permittee here, our range conservationist". That means public land welfare ranching. When has the FS ever cut a road for "weekenders and hikers and birdwatchers"!! Gimme a break!

 

Mark

 

 

Just remember that many of the water tanks that you hunt wouldn't exist without ranching. When has the FS ever cut a road for "weekenders and hikers and birdwatchers"!! The road that goes from the Galiuros to the Winchester's was built when the private landowner rancher closed the only way in.

[Brian Payne]

For anyone who doesn't know about this here is the AZ Star Article This makes me absolutely sick to my stomach. If there is a way to prosecute the FS for doing this I think it should be done!

 

For those of you that have hunted and/or enjoyed the beauty of Charleau Gap, the ol' rock are being destroyed. I'm sure more traffic in there won't help things.....you'll now be able to take your Geo Metro in there.

 

Scott,

 

Thanks for clueing us in on one of your "secret" hunting holes. We all have our areas that we would like to keep to ourselves but don't forget the Charleau Gap is public land and therefore should be accessible to the public. As a civil engineer you should understand and appreciate as well as anyone the need for road maintenance in order to prevent erosion and maintain functionality.

 

I agree that there are too many roads on the forest. The Coronado National Forest Has recently completed a "Travel Management Plan" in which they consulted with numerous groups on determining which of the roads on the forest should be included as forest system roads and therefore maintained as such and which roads where not necessary to the funcionality of the forests many users and could be decomissioned. As a result of the study many miles of unneccessary forest roads are scheduled for decommissioning. The Charleau Gap road was designated as a forest system road and therefore needs to be maintained as such. Many groups will benefit from the use of this road including hunters, the permitee, and firefighters.

[Knifeboy]

This was one of my favorite places to hunt.

Chef and I went up there a couple of times. Had a lot of fun chasing critters around up there.

I wonder how many people will be up there every day now?

[curmudgen]

I agree 100% with Larry on this one. We need all the access we can get.

Access equals more opportunity and less pressure. The way the road was blocked it was almost the same as if there had been a locked gate on public lands, which we would all generally oppose. Opening the road is much better than another likely scenario, that is, that the Forest Service would use the roughness of the road as it existed as an excuse to close it at some future date, then to designate it a roadless area and, finally, to make the whole area a wilderness because it had become "roadless". Increased access to our public lands is one of those issues where we need to get together and not be so tied up in our self interest that we rail against actions that may provide a benefit to hunters as a whole. Jack.

[bowsniper]

We all have our areas that we would like to keep to ourselves but don't forget the Charleau Gap is public land and therefore should be accessible to the public.

OK then, why don't we just build a complete grid system of roads so all public land can be accessible to the public.

 

As a civil engineer you should understand and appreciate as well as anyone the need for road maintenance in order to prevent erosion and maintain functionality.

This is not "road maintenance", this is road construction.

 

I agree that there are too many roads on the forest.

This seems contradictory. You just said "public land and therefore should be accessible to the public."

 

The Coronado National Forest Has recently completed a "Travel Management Plan" in which they consulted with numerous groups on determining which of the roads on the forest should be included as forest system roads and therefore maintained as such and which roads where not necessary to the funcionality of the forests many users and could be decomissioned.

How long have you worked for the Forest Service?

 

As a result of the study many miles of unneccessary forest roads are scheduled for decommissioning.

So let me get this straight: The FS decided that many roads are unnecessary and are closing them. What about losing public access to these areas? But you said, "Charleau Gap is public land and therefore should be accessible to the public." So lets build a new road! I wish I had the Forest Service budget! Maybe this is some of obama's stimulus money that he is priniting?

 

The Charleau Gap road was designated as a forest system road and therefore needs to be maintained as such. Many groups will benefit from the use of this road including hunters, the permitee, and firefighters.

Yes, many groups: road hunters, drug runners, illegals, but mostly the permitee. (rancher, to those of us who do not work for the Forest Service) Don't forget the Range Con, if he ever even bothers to go up there.

 

I admit it: I'm selfish. I like hunting wilderness areas, roadless areas, and difficult access areas. I like hunting away from roadhunters, slob stand jumpers, game camera thieves, vandals, drug runners, illegals, and renegade G&F officers.

 

I have a lot of experience working with the forest service, and I have heard the "Many groups will benefit" story many times before. But most of the time it just comes down to spending hundreds of thousands of dollars so the permitee (who pays a enormous $1.20 per cow per month) can have an easier ride to HIS cows on OUR public land.

 

Even if you don't believe me, what kind of sense does it make to close down roads, but then build new ones, when our government is bankrupt?

 

Mark

[KidBowHunter]

Dad, i couldn't agree more.

[Brian Payne]

Bowsniper (and son),

 

OK then, why don't we just build a complete grid system of roads so all public land can be accessible to the public.

 

I see that you are from Phoenix. Are you familiar with Charleau Gap? Obviously not since you think they are building a new road. The existing Charleau Gap road is the only access to a remote portion of the Catalina Mountains in Unit 33. The road had gotten so rough that it could it was even difficult drive with a 4x4 vehicle. Without this road a hunter would be looking at a four mile cross country hike with close to 1000 feet elevation gain just to get into Charleau Gap. I hike as much as anyone on this site and am more than willing to make hikes like this but the majority of the public is not. This is why it was kept as a forest system road. Are you suggesting we eliminate forest roads all together and all hunters, permitees, and forest users park along the highways and interstates and walk/horseback to where they want to go? Do you not drive on forest roads (maintained by the Forest Service) to access some of the areas you hunt in?

 

This is not "road maintenance", this is road construction.

There is already a road there, a new road is not being built. Therefore "road maintenance" not "construction." (Not stimulus funded)

 

This seems contradictory. You just said "public land and therefore should be accessible to the public."

There are many places where there are more than enough roads to provide public access. Areas where two or three roads lead to the same place or a "grid" of roads was created to access old mining claims or timber sales. In these areas there are too many roads and closing some of them would limit where the road hunters could buzz around on their quads but still provide reasonable access to the public. Charleau Gap is definately not one of these areas.

 

How long have you worked for the Forest Service?

Is this intended to be a slam?

 

 

 

I am always amazed when someone is willing to stand up and fight for something when they don't know the facts of what they are fighting about. Kind of embarassing.

 

 

[bowsniper]

I see that you are from Phoenix. Are you familiar with Charleau Gap? Obviously not since you think they are building a new road.

Yes I am from Phoenix. Yes I am familiar with Charleau Gap. I know that you country boys don't like us city boys commenting on YOUR "backyard" public land use. I am not a civil engineer (I am a lowly EE). But, I think that it may be a little unusual to use hydraulic jack hammers to remove tons of rock for "road maintenance". It is what it is, road construction.

 

I hike as much as anyone on this site and am more than willing to make hikes like this but the majority of the public is not. This is why it was kept as a forest system road.

The majority of the public are not permitees, either. Also, I seriously doubt that the majority of the public even knows, cares or will use the road. Hunters, off-roaders, and the one and only permitte are the majority of public users of the road.

 

Are you suggesting we eliminate forest roads all together and all hunters, permitees, and forest users park along the highways and interstates and walk/horseback to where they want to go?

Certainly not. You said "Charleau Gap is public land and therefore should be accessible to the public". Are you suggesting that ALL public land should be accessible to the public by road? The Forest Service Multiple Use Policy mandates that public land be allocated for all types of uses, including land for limited road access.

 

There is already a road there, a new road is not being built. Therefore "road maintenance" not "construction." (Not stimulus funded)

Like I said, I am no Civil Engineer, but "road maintenance" usually consists of maybe a grader, a front end loader and aggregate. Not so sure about hydraulic jack hammers to remove tons of rock.

 

How long have you worked for the Forest Service?

Is this intended to be a slam?

Not at all. Your post was written in forest service "language". It was a simple question, I just wanted to know if you worked for the Forest Service, or if you had quoted them.

 

 

I am always amazed when someone is willing to stand up and fight for something when they don't know the facts of what they are fighting about. Kind of embarassing.

I do apologize for embarrassing you. From your response, it is obvious that I brought up several issues, especially public land leasing, that you are not familiar with. (Speaking of "Kind of embarassing", it is really not that difficult to use the spell checker when you post. It underlines misspelled words in red for you)

 

I am always willing to stand up and fight against any government agency that caters to special interests (in this case the permitte) and continually abuses and wastes my tax dollars with bogus justifications and predetermined decisions. I am still waiting to hear why this road is needed when our government is bankrupt. When oppositional groups like the left wing Center for Biological Diversity and four-wheel-drive groups join to together to oppose a forest service "project", it should really make everyone stop and think.

 

You really don't need to be a genius to see through this one.

 

Mark

[willhunt4coues]

HOLY COW

Who said what....Can't we all just get along.

[Brian Payne]

HOLY COW

Who said what....Can't we all just get along. wink.gif

 

Nothing wrong with a good friendly debate.

 

How long have you worked for the Forest Service?

 

Yes, I am a civil engineer for the Forest Service but have only been with the agency for less than a year. Worked in the private industry previously. My comments represent my view as a hunter and forest user and are not the views of the agency.

 

I know that you country boys don't like us city boys commenting on YOUR "backyard" public land use.

Never said it was MY back yard. In fact I think I was pretty clear in stating that it was public land. The fact that you were talking about a "new" road made me think you were not familiar with the area since the road has been there for many years. In fact this is not the first time it has been maintained. Nothing wrong with city boys.

 

I am not a civil engineer (I am a lowly EE). But, I think that it may be a little unusual to use hydraulic jack hammers to remove tons of rock for "road maintenance". It is what it is, road construction.

 

In case you haven't noticed yet, there is a lot of rock in Arizona. Bedrock is near the surface in many places including on roads. After time the bedrock is exposed and can make the road extremely rough. It doesn't take a civil engineer to know that typical graders don't do a lot to smooth the bedrock. The options are to bring in aggregate and cover up the bedrock or use a hammer or rock crusher to smooth the bedrock creating a smooth solid surface. The latter option is used all over the state on many forest roads, not just Charleau Gap, as road maintenance. So, no, it is not unusual. I was on some roads in 36B hunting in December where the rock crusher had just been used. They were nice, saved some wear and tear on my truck. The only reason the Charleau Gap road is in the spot light is because the CBD raised enough of a stink that it made the front page of the Tucson Daily Star.

 

I am always willing to stand up and fight against any government agency that caters to special interests (in this case the permitte) and continually abuses and wastes my tax dollars with bogus justifications and predetermined decisions.

 

The truth is that any improvement that is not maintained eventually goes away, nature takes over, and then no one can use it. Are you suggesting that you don't want the Forest Service to use your tax dollars to maintain any of the forest roads? Or would like them maintained just enough so that your vehicle can get in but not the next guy. Or maybe you should submit of a list of the ones that you like to drive on and the ones you don't so the Forest Service will know which ones to maintain. I am against big government and reckless spending of tax dollars as much as anyone but I like accessing the forest and think that forest road maintenance is a good use of my tax dollars. On the same note, would you rather fund fire fighters getting flown into an area or driving into an area? I am sure you remember the Aspen Fire in that area a few years back. Would you rather fund trail crews driving into the trail heads or walking four miles just to get to the trail head? The issue is not as clear cut as you seem to think.

 

P.S. I don't get embarrassed by misspelling a word. But good catch