Does Size Matter?

[Santana Outdoors]

 

Do Big Antlered Coues have a larger hoof? Never studied it myself. But was curious. If we knew for sure it could add to our hunting experience. Or is this already common knowledge with you more seasoned Coues hunters?

 

I asked a few people and no one had an answer.

 

My feeling is there is a difference, if there is a difference, how much is it?

 

Lets do a study. How about submitting your Coues Deer hoof size for this next year along with the Antler score (or estimated score) and lets see if the size of the hoof matters? Even if it is a small one, submit it so we can gather as much data as possible.

 

Lets have some fun with this and make it a contest. Give me your input.

 

Amanda, Can you get us a standard for measuring up a hoof?

 

 

[CouesWhitetail]

I like this idea! I will come up with some hoof measurement standard before the seasons for next year's contest.

 

Thanks Eric.

 

Amanda

 

[bonecollector]

Thats a good idea I always wondered the same thing.

[More D]

I have compared deer taken and from my very informal observation hoof size has to do with terrain the deer is living in. Two examples that stand out were two mulies that were taken in very different terrains. The spike lived in very rocky steep hills had the same or similar sized hoofs as a 3.5 year old who called rolling hills home. Both were taken the same day about 20miles apart. Coincidently there ear had the same measurement across, +/- 1 inch.

 

I like the idea. It will be interesting to see what we come up with....

 

 

[Jimmer Negamanee]

Interesting question. Perhaps there is a correlation that would yield predictable results. Amanda, have there been studies on this? If Amanda hasn't seen any, SilentButDeadly might have. He's a scientist by training too. Amanda and/or SBD, what say ye? (I smell a Ph.D. or perhaps a post-doctoral study in someone's future.)

[CouesWhitetail]

I asked Jim Heffelfinger and he said he has measured hundreds of hooves of both WT and MD, but hasn't analyzed the data. He may be able to get us a graph of the data to show.

 

Amanda

 

[gamespec]

I have measured a few hundred hooves (length and width) and have mainbeam length, spread, base circumference for all those deer. Cool, right? Well, no... I have not been able to summarize all those data yet so I don't have great stuff for you. But I can describe how I took the measurements so you can do it consistantly. Whenever you have different people collecting measurements it is important that everyone does it the same way or you'll end up with a lot of numbers that are not very useful. I took all measurements in millimeters so I didn't have to deal with 1/8s. Width was the outside measurement at the widest "bow" in the hoof -- the widest part. Length is a little less clear, but i did mine all the same way as pictured below. From the tip of the hooves to the back of the hoof. Now, the hoof gets soft and is rounded at the back so you have to eye-ball it. I pushed in on the spongy part on the back of the hoof a little and then read the mm measurement at back edge of the hoof (my pushing sort of made it bulge a little so I could measure the back of the bulge). You might think of it as what would be the back of the track if it left a good track (that was my intention - so you could measure a track and have basically the same measurement). Of course front and rear hoof measurements have to be kept separate.

 

My interest was not to compare antlers but to look at the overlap in WT and MD. I was interested in where the cut-off was. So if you saw a track that was larger than some measurement, you knew it was a mule deer. For bucks 1.5 years and older, 58mm in length seems to be the breaking point where most larger are MD and most smaller are WT. There seems to be a lot of overlap in width -- maybe you want to just focus on front hoof length to make your data collection easier.

 

Any small track could be a fawn or yearling of either species. It was not a serious analysis, really a "gee-whiz" thing, but sometimes i wonder about random things too.

 

 

JIM

[CouesWhitetail]

Thanks Jim!!

 

Amanda

 

[Santana Outdoors]

 

Jim, Thanks, lots of great info.

 

Anyway to get the data on the "few hundred hooves (length and width) and have mainbeam length, spread, base circumference for all those deer." you have?

 

We might be able to get someone that can put this info into a spreadsheet for us.

 

Thanks and appreciate your input.

 

Eric

[AZantlerhead]

Jim, we look forward too see the results from your hundreds of hoof measurements in correlation to their antler size for those deer measured.

 

My common sense says yes,generaly larger hooves- particularly those bigger than those of does' of said specie will belong to the biggest racked bucks or ( mature bucks ). And I'm betting the small hooves will belong to the smaller racked bucks ( young),I'll say that theory holds true for WT and MD. Just here say though without them graphs. BTW Thanks for all you do Jim. Also It would be cool to know how much larger Buck tracks are than does' too, age being the same. I for one pay serious attention to tracks so any info you provide is great! All though First genetics then age / nutrition are the keys to antler size. I'm sure your studies will reflect the oldest and biggest bodied and or racked bucks will lay down the biggest tracks cause they sport the biggest hooves also. How many years does it take for a deer to reach full hoove size?, do they stop growing longways but getter broader with more years?

 

I'd guess BIG tracks usually were made by BIG bucks sporting big bodies and or racks, and I'll bet a tag the biggest tracks in the area were probly made by the biggest buck in the area, I dunno- just makes sense to me. But allot of variables like the genetics/terrain/nutrition/travel patterns are keys in hoove size too besides age/sex right?But then sometimes little/ young bucks with huge racks/ smaller tracks/ Old - big bodied bucks with smaller racks and large tracks. UUGGHHH, so many variables. Great topic guys!

 

Jim, of the subject somewhat here but while were talking data, please tell whoever oversees the elk/ant. success rates data they need to publish them in the regs along side the draw rates. Just like the Deer stats. Otherwise why are people filling out the harvest reports? The people would like to know the results of hunts just like G&F does. Or maybe bring this up to your fellow G&F personel. I've asked many hunters why they arent in the regs and the reply is " yeah- how come they're not published too?" , Didn't they used to be? Again thanks for your time Jim putting all us Un-edumacated folks in the know.

 

I Like the idea of a study of this on CW.com next season Amanda, very interesting!

 

I have hooves from different bucks my family and I have taken, I'll measure and get them posted soon. Do they shrink in the freezer or outdoors? Measure to closest 1/8?

Much to be learned on threads like this, I am sponge. No , I don't like Sponge Bob square pants!

[Coues 'n' Sheep]

I have always seen that hoof size was a direct conection with body size on the bucks we have taken... not so much horn size.... and the shape of the track can often show some reflection in the age... meaning mature or not.... mature vs. old... We have taken several large bodies bucks that we not large antlered and some very small bdied bucks that were packin' large racks. Obviously... the genetic code for body size and antler size can be different....

 

this is one of the largest bodied bucks I have ever seen in person... 108 1/8" gross

 

This, however, was on of the smallest..... 109 7/8" gross

 

I was not with Colton when he took this deer but he is a Giant bodied buck.... that grosses 112 4/8"

 

 

 

I look more at the shape of track vs. size I guess is what I am saying....

[gamespec]

The data I have on hooves and antlers are not in the same computer file. I have antler data in a DBase IV file and the hoof data in a spreadsheet. Both files have to be put in a one file and matched up so its more complicated than just running a summary. I've got a big meeting all this week and then will have to jump into the hunt recommendation process until March 1, followed by the world famous Junior Jack Kamp 2010 in the Altar Valley the following weekend. So, I can't get to that analysis for a while. I agree that tracks and body size are closely related (although we've all seen a big guy with tiny feet). Antler size might be less correlated, but still big mature bucks leave big tracks more often than not.

 

I don't have any doe hoof measurements (or antler measurements). Hooves do shrink when they dry - not sure what that does to the measurement.

 

About the elk/pronghorn hunt success data: Because we changed the time of the draw, this info was not summarized for the fall 2009 hunts when the regs were printed. There is no way to get the questionnaires back from the Dec cow hunts and enter them and summarize them by the time these regs are printed in early December (some hunts probably haven't occurred yet). As for pronghorn, I'm not sure that same thing is true. I'll ask our statistician. This information is used primarily to guide the management of these species along with survey data and other information. It helps everyone decide where to apply, but the reason EVERYONE (right?) returns these is to help us in management so please fill those out and return them.

 

I'll be at a meeting in Salt Lake City the rest of the week and maybe not able to get back here.

 

JIM