crossbred buck

[AZelkhunter]

Do you have any pictures of this buck with his tail down?

[elkhutnaz]

here are the best I have at work we still have the whole cape so I will try to get some more

[Browning'sCustomMeat]

I would say that has to the closest thing to a hybrid, if there was such a thing. The tail for sure...uh and then the horn structure? His face colors have that of a WT, white rings around muzzle and eyes just not as defined. CRAZY for sure. Curious to know the outcome!

Congrats by the way!!

 

-Jeremy-

[gamespec]

Relax, its a hybrid. The one photo that includes the hind legs seals the deal. You can see the metatarsal glands are intermediate in location and length between WT and MD. I was going to produce a brochure on the differences but there was no interest for it in our publicaitions dept. The focus was too limited. I'm sure they are right, and I have already published all the differences in depth with photos and details of how to tell a hybrid.

 

The metatarsal glands are on the OUTSIDE of the lower hind legs. If you look at the pic with the bow laying on the deer, the lower cam is directly over the metatarsal gland. It is a furry ridge on the outside of the deer's lower leg.

 

I am now working with Boone & Crockett and a geneticist in Maine to develop a genetic marker to tell not only 50:50 hybrids from pure breds but to be able to diagnose 1/4:3/4 and maybe the next generation after that. Our work is not done yet, we are having trouble getting the geneticist to wrap it up and provide a final report. When he does (6 months or less) it will provide a test that any one can use to tell for sure it a deer is the product of hybridization in the last 3-4 generations. You should also be able to use antler drillings and old skin from mounts. Keep in mind these hybrids are rare so don't pull the trigger on anything that looks "funny." They do crop up from time to time. The key is to keep the whole back legs for diagnosis.

 

JIM

[elkhutnaz]

thanks Jim we were going to try to get a hold of you

[Mittens2010]

So, if it was a 200" hybrid, would it go in the books as a Mule deer? Is there a hybrid catagory in pope & young?

[Eliteshooter]

Thanks for the clearing up... So i shot a hybrid and which is my first buck.... So how many sittings have there been. Anyone?

[redline410]

Keep in mind these hybrids are rare so don't pull the trigger on anything that looks "funny." They do crop up from time to time. The key is to keep the whole back legs for diagnosis.

 

JIM

 

Hey Jim, thanks for the insight. Curious what direction the G&F leans on the subject-

I realize the odds of rolling up on a Hybrid are rare and most of us won't have to worry about seeing one, let alone killing one in our life time. With that said, your statement on not shooting a buck that looks "funny", and a prior statement in this thread about a WM would have taken it had it been a whitetail hunt caught me off guard. Can animal identification and a subsequent game law infraction really come down to DNA and gland location when general characteristics show differently? There certainly are funny looking critters running around out there, all shapes and sizes, but the very trademark that gave the whitetail its name cant be overlooked can it? I've seen some big eared, mule headed, fork antlered whitetail and some dainty, basket racked, ninja skilled mule deer but I'm pretty sure I've never seen a mule deer "flag". Reminds me of the Polar/grizzly bear hybrid a few years ago- that dude jumped through way too many hoops for something that seemed obvious on a common sense level. Mother nature does what she does and much as we'd like to think we can control her, we can't. things happen...Look at the platypus . Any unit with a sustainable population of both species has the potential to pitch a hybrid and some day one lucky hunter's dream buck has the potential of becoming a nightmare because its metatarsal gland is too big, small, high or low.

 

 

Dave

 

 

[Tines]

Keep in mind these hybrids are rare so don't pull the trigger on anything that looks "funny." They do crop up from time to time. The key is to keep the whole back legs for diagnosis.

 

JIM

 

Hey Jim, thanks for the insight. Curious what direction the G&F leans on the subject-

I realize the odds of rolling up on a Hybrid are rare and most of us won't have to worry about seeing one, let alone killing one in our life time. With that said, your statement on not shooting a buck that looks "funny", and a prior statement in this thread about a WM would have taken it had it been a whitetail hunt caught me off guard. Can animal identification and a subsequent game law infraction really come down to DNA and gland location when general characteristics show differently? There certainly are funny looking critters running around out there, all shapes and sizes, but the very trademark that gave the whitetail its name cant be overlooked can it? I've seen some big eared, mule headed, fork antlered whitetail and some dainty, basket racked, ninja skilled mule deer but I'm pretty sure I've never seen a mule deer "flag". Reminds me of the Polar/grizzly bear hybrid a few years ago- that dude jumped through way too many hoops for something that seemed obvious on a common sense level. Mother nature does what she does and much as we'd like to think we can control her, we can't. things happen...Look at the platypus . Any unit with a sustainable population of both species has the potential to pitch a hybrid and some day one lucky hunter's dream buck has the potential of becoming a nightmare because its metatarsal gland is too big, small, high or low.

 

 

Dave

 

Good point. All I know is that if I had a WT tag and an obvious white tail presented itself, I wouldn't care if his head gear looked as if he just walked off of the strip, lead is flying!

[gamespec]

There are weird deer sometimes, but a pure mule deer is never going to have a whitetail tail. All hybrids I have seen have tails that look more WT than MD. Most are black on the back, but some pure WT are black on the back of the tails also so you can't just use that characteristic. That tail of this deer was certainly not a mule deer tail. I don't know what the WM meant, but if I were to guess I'd say that the front of the deer looked mule deer and if you shot it without seeing the tail with a WT tag I'd say you shot a deer that looked like a mule deer. But, seeing the tail (as I'm sure he did) would make me feel confident in shooting it.

 

Hybrids are disqualified from B&C and P&Y.

 

If you shoot a hybrid there is no violation - maybe we should give people half the fine . There have been cases where a hybrid deer was shot with a WT tag and it looked mostly mule deer (probably a case of 3/4 MD:1/4 WT). In those cases you have a WM looking at a deer that looks 75% MD and someone shot it with a WT tag. That would make me question the decision to pull the trigger.

 

We don't need genetic tests to tell a hunter if he can take the deer home or not. The metatarsal gland shows the difference in the field. The problem is our current genetic research is showing that "hybrids" are not always 50:50 and thats when things get "funny." Male hybrids are sterile (at least 99% of the time), but females can back cross to either parent species (usually mule deer). So you have some 1/4 WT and some 1/8 WT, and some 1/16 and 3/16 WT...... You can see that this is a more complicated issue than we all first thought. Althought the mule deer metatarsal gland (4"+) and the whitetail metatarsal gland (<1") are very different, what does a 3/16 whitetail and 13/16 mule deer metatarsal look like? If you see a Coues WT with a black tail and one G2 forked, do you shoot it with a mule deer tag? This is where you have to be careful. Luckily hybrid survival is low and most hybrid fawns don't survive their first year so the species tend to stay fairly pure.

 

If you know you deer identification, you won't shoot the wrong species. The problem is sometimes the WM has a deer that is a whitetail with forked G2s or a young 3x3 mule deer with all tines coming off the mainbeam and the hunter has the wrong tag on it and trys to convince the WM its a hybrid.

 

The bottom line is, a mule deer won't have a whitetail tail and vice versa. The metatarsal glands are very different (>4" and <1") so there is no mistake what the deer is when you get a close look. If you're not sure, don't shoot. If you have one on the ground and these characteristics are intermediate, there is a good chance its a hybrid.

 

Because of this discussion, I will block out some time at our March Regional meeting and give a presentation about hybrids to the Region 5 WMs so they all know what to look for and there is no misunderstandings in the field. We have some new WMs in the region and they probably have not run into this issue yet. I didn't know squat the first 2 years in this position and I'm still learning after 18 years. I usually include a bunch of photos and discussion of hybrids when I talk at the ADA hunter clinic.

 

[azhunter23]

Look out! I see a money maker for the GF. With all of the added hunts that were created to generate revenue [] I see an OTC hybrid tag in the future.

[Mr. Jonathan]

Hey nice bow!

[redline410]

Thanks Jim- I appreciate the time you took to respond.

 

 

Dave

[bowhuntaz1]

Thanks Jim- I appreciate the time you took to respond.

 

 

Dave

 

 

+1

[gamespec]

Heres what a Hybrid metatarsal gland looks like (arrowed on the east side of the Galiuros). Look at the furry ridge under the label "Metatarsal Gland"

 

Also a live one (different one):

 

Also a mounted one. This picture was given to me and apparently taken in Phoenix - I don't know anything else about it:

 

JIM