New to Muzzleloaders

[RoughCut]

Thanks again for all of the comments, Keep them coming. It sounds like the gun is gonna be great. I have also read good things about Blackhorn powder, though it seems a bit higher priced. Do Sabots really foul up your gun quicker than shooting, say... Powerbelts?

 

Another quick newbie Question. When everybody refers to their specific grain powder charge (especially for loose powder) are you referring to Volume grainage or Weight Grainage. I've read that 100 grains (by a volume measurer) really only Weighs about 70 grains. A bit confused, I am assuming it's by volume.

[HaYen]

When referencing muzzle loaders charges are by volume. When referencing Black powder cartridges, charges as by weight. Now there are individuates who weight their charges for BP and others who measure by volume for BPC, but typically when referencing a BP charge for muzzle loading its by volume.

 

Well come to the brotherhood.

 

POWDERS:

When shooting your ML you have two options: pure black or black powder substitute. I'm not going to touch on the pure black powder as I don't shoot it. I can tell you that it is still very much used today by hunters and competition shooters. Black Powder Subs (BPS) has had some new offerings in recent years that are more powerful and cleaner burning. Traditionally there was Pyrodex and Triple Seven. Both fine powders and still very much used today. Hodgdon's has also come out with Triple Seven Magnum which has more energy by volume than Triple Seven (they added more kick). Recently , they have introduced a newer cleaner burning pelleted powder under their IMR brand called White Hots. American Pioneer Premier has two BPS offerings, one under its name and one under the Jim Shocky Gold label. Pinnacle (originally produced GOEX black) has a BPS called Replic which was developed with the help of the APP folks and is similar to their product, so I am told. I've never actually used it. There was another loose BPS called Black Mag3. Again I've never had a chance to actually use it but I was able to speak to the manufactures at the last NRA show. The powder seems to be in the same power rating as White Hots and Black Horn 209 and just as clean burning. The folks who make Black Mag3 had problems getting their products to the masses, so this Spring (crossing my fingers) Allient Powders will release Black Mag3 under their Black Dot label (which is odd 'cause its white). Finally, there's Western Powders Blackhorn 209. And as its name implies it is meant for a hot burning 209 ignition system. I've shot a lot BH209 and I am going to pick on it a second because it has both positives and negatives that aren't prevalent in the other BPS. First the positives. It is clean burning; I've shot 20 rounds without having to swab the barrel. Its accurate; some have shot 1.5 MOA group at 100 yards after more than 20 shots. The negatives aren't so much negatives, unless you count being restricted to a 209 ignition, other than that its more "things you need to know". BH209 requires a hot ignition system, even hotter than most 209 primers on the market today. You'll want to use either Federal Magnum or CCI Magnum 209 primers for consistent ignition and to keep the barrel clean. When I first started to use the powder, I could only get to the 3 round before I had to swab the barrel and clean out the flash hole. I spoke with Western Powders several times before I got the problems worked out. BH209 requires these hotter primers or you won't be burning all of the powder and reside will remain in the barrel and gum up the flash hole. So hot primers. Next, charge size. When I switched to Federal 209 Magnums I no longer had ignition problems but the barrel would still need to to be swabbed after 3 rounds. WTH? Again after speaking with Western I found out that my 50gr charge was not enough. BH209 wants heat and it wants to burn hot. I might want to use a 50gr White Hot pellet or A 50grs of T7 along with a 295gr Powerbelt for Javelina. Powerbelts by the way are a soft lead conical that if over pushed at a short distance will fail. The 295gr with grains of BPS is a good killer for shots on Javelins 25 - 100 yards. I started to shoot 110grs of BH209 and fired 15 rounds before I ran out of conical's. I've gone down as low as 90grs without a problem. By the way, you don't want to shoot more than 120grs of BH209 in a new in-line muzzle loader.

 

No matter how clean burning a powder is, there is no BPS on the market will allow you to go longer than a day before you should clean the barrel. You can, load a charge at the beginning of your hunt and go several days with it in there. Just be sure that after you shoot it, you clean the barrel at the end of the day.

 

Some custom and mainstream muzzle loaders can also shoot smokeless powder. The only concern their outside of always being safe and following the manufacturers load recommendations, is not all States will allow you to use smokeless.

 

PROJECTILES:

There are Saboted Bullets and Conicals. Some believe that the bullet-to-bore philosophy will give you the absolute best accuracy. I've shot both and had good results with both. YMMV. Parker Productions, No Excuses, Powder Belts, and Thor's are currently my favorite conicals. There are others but the size of my barrel is fairly tight at .500, so I can't shove any old bullet down the barrel. More on this below in Rifles.

 

Saboted bullets are smaller in diameter (.400 - .453) and usually lighter than conicals. Lighter could translate into flatter shooting over a longer distance. In Saboted bullets one can not dispute the success Barnes has had with its line of non-lead copper bullets and currently my favorite in this class. The good folks at Harvester have sent me some of their saboted bullets to try. Again, I have a picky barrel so size does matter.

 

If I had to pick just one of the above projectiles for my current ML, it would have to be the Thor. Its a conical that comes in a .500 size and is non-lead so I can use it in California and up around the canyon. If cost were and issue, then the No Excuses 460gr monster is my go to bullet. These can be order swagged to .500 and for less than $40 I can get 50 bullets.

 

If I am shooting a conical that doesn't have a skirt (i.e. Powder Belts or Harvester's), I use a 1/8 or 2 1/16 over powder wads. It helps to seal the charge and make for a safer (yes I said safer) shot.

 

Again, I can't stress more the fact that my choices are largely based on their diameter. There are other projects that I have used that are just as effective and accurate in other rifles.

 

RIFLES:

I'll touch three things (this reply is getting way too long): Ignition, Manufacture, and Barrels.

 

Ignition: There are so many great rifles out there whether it be traditional flintlock, a percussion capper, 209 ignition, or Large Rifle Center Fire primer. Know that with a flinlock you will carry two different charges 3f for the main charge and 4f for the priming pan. The ignition takes just a little bit longer with a flint lock, but that's part of the history and allure of these rifles. Some states require an open ignition system for their ML season, most 209 ignition systems won't meet this requirement. BH209 can't be used in an ignition system that isn't hot enough. Point I'm trying to make is don't discredit a rifle by its ignition system; know its limitations and benefits and have fun.

 

Manufactures: There are a lot of manufactures of ML's and ML kits. Most folks opt for a new in-line mainstream manufacture. Of these there are Traditions, CVA, T/C, Savage, and Remington to name a few. Some of these in-line ML offer the option of barrel swaps most notably is T/C. You options for caliber is only limited by your imagination; what a smith will build for you; and your pocket book. There's a Encore club over at T/C (like they need one) and these guys try to find new and different calibers to shoot out of their actions. If you purchase a swap barrel ML or swap barrel frame, you will have to go through the same background checks as if you were purchasing a center fire rife. CVA did have problems several years ago with kabooms. Today's CVA barrels are made by Bergara in Spain. Bergara enlisted the talents of Mr. Ed Shelin himself to consult on the production of their barrels. These button rifled barrels are know for their accuracy and high quality. In fact, Bergara makes barrels for T/C and center fire drop ins for Savage, Remington 700's, and Ruger 10-22's. The list of calibers for CVA centerfile and shotgun barrels are much more limited that T/C.

 

Then there are the custom ML manufactures and kits. Kits can be had from sites like Dixie Gunworks or Track of the Wolf. These are rifles you take personal pride in assembling, finishing, and shooting. I've even seen folks purchase the parts needed to make their own kits. Custom manufactures like Bad Bull muzzle loaders offer very accurate and very expensive rifles that are ... well insane. Imagine using anywhere between 100 and 140grs of IMR4350 behind a 300gr 45 caliber conical. You have to see the video on their site, its crazy.

 

Barrels:

I mentioned it above but wanted to bring up the fact that unlike center fired rifles, muzzle loader manufactures don't have the same tolerances for barrel dimensions. Some .50 caliber muzzle loaders can have barrels as small as .498 and others as large as .508. That's a pretty big difference. That doesn't make one better than the other, just find out what you rifle likes and you'll be happy.

 

Alright, I have to stop now or I'll write a book.

 

Have fun, be safe, and welcome to the brotherhood, its a blast.

 

HaYen

[Redman]

Thanks again for all of the comments, Keep them coming. It sounds like the gun is gonna be great. I have also read good things about Blackhorn powder, though it seems a bit higher priced. Do Sabots really foul up your gun quicker than shooting, say... Powerbelts?

 

Another quick newbie Question. When everybody refers to their specific grain powder charge (especially for loose powder) are you referring to Volume grainage or Weight Grainage. I've read that 100 grains (by a volume measurer) really only Weighs about 70 grains. A bit confused, I am assuming it's by volume.

 

Go with Blackhorn, its more expensive, unless that extra 10-20 bucks will make you homeless......my friend shoots pellets and I shoot blackhorn, we got into a situation where multiple shots could be fired, he had to ram his sabot down the barrel by pushing his gun/ram rod against a rock (after two or three shots), I simply loaded mine as it was the first shot (not that it made a difference I still missed).

 

Blackhorn is measured by volume. A small adjustable measurer can be purchased that allows you to measure powder in 5 grain increments. 5-10 grains can mean the difference between 8-10 groups to 2-4 inch groups.

 

Never shot powerbelts, I shoot TC shockwave and with blackhorn I can shoot multiple times (5) without swabbing and groups hold tight.

 

Redman

[HaYen]

Go with Blackhorn, its more expensive, unless that extra 10-20 bucks will make you homeless......my friend shoots pellets and I shoot blackhorn, we got into a situation where multiple shots could be fired, he had to ram his sabot down the barrel by pushing his gun/ram rod against a rock (after two or three shots), I simply loaded mine as it was the first shot (not that it made a difference I still missed).

 

Blackhorn is measured by volume. A small adjustable measurer can be purchased that allows you to measure powder in 5 grain increments. 5-10 grains can mean the difference between 8-10 groups to 2-4 inch groups.

 

Never shot powerbelts, I shoot TC shockwave and with blackhorn I can shoot multiple times (5) without swabbing and groups hold tight.

 

Redman

 

That's interesting, I mention on another board that although you'll have to swab the barrel more often with Pyrodex and Triple 7 then say some of the newer powders, I wasn't planning on taking more than two shots while hunting. Redman proved me wrong. I've taken 15 shots with BH209 and 20+ shots with White Hots and APP without having to swab the barrel. With Pyrodex (my powder of the week), I have to swab the barrel after every second shot. You can use whatever you have available to swab it (some folks like spit), recently I've been using T7 Cleaner and Protection.

 

Do Sabots really foul up your gun quicker than shooting, say... Powerbelts?

 

If I'm shooting Pyrodex, I have to swab after every two shots no matter the projectile. If I'm shooting APP, BH209, or WH's, it doesn't matter on the projectile I've shot multiple rounds w/o having to swab the barrel. As for the cost? Yes, BH209 is the most expensive powder out there and when I take into account the other two factors of hotter primers and amount of powder I should be using, it makes even more expensive. And just so I'm clear on my post yesterday, I've shot 50grs of BH209 with T7 and Winchester 209 primers. The problem I had was any shot beyond the 3rd and my barrel would get too dirty to get e projectile down the barrel (picture me ramming my "sabot down the barrel by pushing his gun/ram rod against a rock ").

 

Something else to consider is loose vs pellets. Pellets are more convenient because you don't have to pre-measure your loads before going into the field. Ive shot 50grs and 100grs of pelletized powder and achieved "hunter" accuracy. With loose powder, you can actually dial in a more accurate load. FFT

 

HaYen