Soup and Sandwich...

[jim]

Just look at all the great bucks killed on the earlier hunts to know where the big bucks went. With the glass that's available I feel the nov hunts are just as good or better than the rut. Most guy's even the ones telling this story hunt with several friends all packing high quaility glass, these deer don't stand a chanch. With the number of hunts and tag numbers how many years can those units remain good.

[Red Rabbit]

Just look at all the great bucks killed on the earlier hunts to know where the big bucks went. With the glass that's available I feel the nov hunts are just as good or better than the rut. Most guy's even the ones telling this story hunt with several friends all packing high quaility glass, these deer don't stand a chanch. With the number of hunts and tag numbers how many years can those units remain good.

 

If one looks at the buck:doe ratio in the Hunt AZ book, one can notice the gradual decline in the ratio in the last 60 years since 1946 (not since just the widespread use of 15x binos). What is the unsaid change in the age structure?????

 

I did an analysis of 36C regarding WT population, permit numbers and success %. I will need to dig that up.

[Str8Shot]

Someone call the Wambulance ...... It is called hunting for a reason and yet it seems so many want to blame G&F for their lack of success .... to many tags , to many hunts, the wrong dates for hunts .... IMO hunters need to step up and look at their own delusional desires for only the biggest .... If your hunting for a trophy that makes up less than 10 or 15 percent of the buck population in the herd than you are on a 10 or 15 percent hunt... it does not matter coues, muley , elk it is all the same....I want to know when 100" plus coues made up more than maybe 10 percent of the bucks seen in the field.... to hear someone say they passed on a 100" 2x2 and then complain about less opportunity or quality is absurd ... Do that many of you here think it makes you less of a man or woman to drop a smaller deer, or maybe you think dropping a toad is the only way to make you seem like a good hunter? ...... 3 weeks during almost the best time of the year vs. 1 when it is hot and miserable and to still hear hunters crying... please .... Here is an idea for you Get rid of the late Nov. hunt and triple the number of tags for Dec. making 3 week long hunts

 

 

P.S. just watch when several more toads come out of the unit before the end of January with an arrow stuck in them will you still be crying all the big ones are gone ......

[555]

I have not hunted 36C for several years now, but have heard about a lot of Lion sightings... they definatety could be a factor

[Coues79]

Someone call the Wambulance ...... It is called hunting for a reason and yet it seems so many want to blame G&F for their lack of success .... to many tags , to many hunts, the wrong dates for hunts .... IMO hunters need to step up and look at their own delusional desires for only the biggest .... If your hunting for a trophy that makes up less than 10 or 15 percent of the population in the herd than you are on a 10 or 15 percent hunt... it does not matter coues, muley , elk it is all the same....I want to know when 100" plus coues made up more than maybe 10 percent of deer seen in the field.... to hear someone say they passed on a 100" 2x2 and then complain about less opportunity or quality is absurd ... Do that many of you here think it makes you less of a man or woman to drop a smaller deer, or maybe you think dropping a toad is the only way to make you seem like a good hunter? ...... 3 weeks during almost the best time of the year vs. 1 when it is hot and miserable and to still hear hunters crying... please .... Here is an idea for you Get rid of the late Nov. hunt and triple the number of tags for Dec. making 3 week long hunts

 

 

P.S. just watch when several more toads come out of the unit before the end of January with an arrow stuck in them will you still be crying all the big ones are gone ......

 

Hey buddy, it was 100% my decision to pass on that 100" 2x2. I've got numerous other 100 inch bucks on the wall, one more 100 inch buck isn't what I was after, so as for quality, yes I wanted bigger. Doesn't mean you need to call the "wambulence", its called someones personal goal. I wanted a bigger buck, and to me, that is what was going to make a successful harvest worth it. Its my own personal goal. If you'd of shot him, great for you!

 

I know I have waited 13 years to draw a December hunt, and with this finally being the year, I was hoping to fulfill the tag with a toad. To have a chance to hunt during the rut and WAY WAY cooler weather, was awesome. I loved it.

 

I don't think the thread was meant as a "crying" thread, but its obvious that with numerous people seeing the lack of big deer, that the bigger bucks are #1; becoming less in number, or, #2, becoming smarter about showing themselves.

 

[scoutm]

I have not hunted 36C for several years now, but have heard about a lot of Lion sightings... they definatety could be a factor

 

In my hunting and scouting I found two bucks killed by lions both looked to be killed in the last year. One was a nice 3x3 and the other was a spike buck with some trash. The spike with trash is really cool looking. I'll post some pics of it when I get a chance.

[Antlerdog]

I have not hunted 36C for several years now, but have heard about a lot of Lion sightings... they definatety could be a factor

 

Hunting 36A,B,C back in the 80's--90's seeing a mountain lion was rare. Now thier ALL OVER THE PLACE!!!!!!

We saw as many moutain lions as big deer this season! They hunt all year.

[SunDevil]

Sorry Str8Shot but I struggle in understanding how this thread got turned into a pity fest.

 

I could have taken an 80 - 85 inch 3x3 last year and an 85 - 90 inch 3x3 this year but I was not going to shoot a deer just to shoot a deer. I was more interested in harvesting something that I would be more satisfied with. maybe other people are completely satisfied with harvesting small bucks but not me (this does not mean that I think I am right or they are wrong we are just different and that is fine). I would prefer to let those small deer grow up in hopes of tagging one of them in a year or two.

 

My comments on this thread were directed toward my opinions on the reduced quality of the Dec hunt experience overall. Yes the weather was great. Yes it was great to be able to hunt 11 out of 21 days. It was a bummer to run into other hunters every day. It was a bummer to have such a difficult time finding bigger bucks when they were seen earlier in the year.

 

There are many things that contributed to this. Two fires in the unit this year. A drought that dried up about 90% of the water tanks. Increased Dec tags. An additional late Nov hunt. Etc, etc.

 

Additionally, in my opinion, the buck populations are getting hit harder now than ever. Many factors are contributing to this, archers using camo ground blinds, scent elimination, salt, corn, bows that shoot 100 yards, etc. etc. Rifle hunters using 15X binos, rifle stablizing devices, range finders, rifles and turrets that allow accurate shots to 800+ yards, etc. etc. All of these factors are effecting the buck populations throughout the state and something needs to be done about it.

 

Unfortunately the G&F is extremely slow in making changes unless they have an agenda for it (like they did for 'opportunity'). They can't even get an online application process in place for pete sake. There are many things that could be considered such as making one of the hunts a muzzleloader hunt, putting in an antler point restriction (they did this in PA and the avg age of the harvested bucks went up from 1.5 yrs to 3.5 yrs in 5 - 6 years), mandatory reporting, reducing the number of tags, addressing the predator situation, increasing/improving year round water supplies, addressing land access issues, etc. etc. It could be just me but it does not seem these are the things the G&F want to talk about or expend their limited resources on.

[coueshunter]

I too noticed a ton of people in the unit and a really low buck to doe ratio. I glassed over 100 deer in 2 1/2 days with only 4 being bucks. I sure wasnt glassing from the road all the time, I went back in deep many times. Biggest deer I saw was the buck I killed 85". I ran into alot of border patrol guys hiking and a helicopter fly over plus lots and lots of road hunters. I think there are too many tags between the three coues hunts and the muley hunts...........Allen.........

[SunDevil]

Allen - try 4 coues hunts.

[Str8Shot]

Sorry Str8Shot but I struggle in understanding how this thread got turned into a pity fest.

 

I could have taken an 80 - 85 inch 3x3 last year and an 85 - 90 inch 3x3 this year but I was not going to shoot a deer just to shoot a deer. I was more interested in harvesting something that I would be more satisfied with. maybe other people are completely satisfied with harvesting small bucks but not me (this does not mean that I think I am right or they are wrong we are just different and that is fine). I would prefer to let those small deer grow up in hopes of tagging one of them in a year or two.

 

My comments on this thread were directed toward my opinions on the reduced quality of the Dec hunt experience overall. Yes the weather was great. Yes it was great to be able to hunt 11 out of 21 days. It was a bummer to run into other hunters every day. It was a bummer to have such a difficult time finding bigger bucks when they were seen earlier in the year.

 

There are many things that contributed to this. Two fires in the unit this year. A drought that dried up about 90% of the water tanks. Increased Dec tags. An additional late Nov hunt. Etc, etc.

 

Additionally, in my opinion, the buck populations are getting hit harder now than ever. Many factors are contributing to this, archers using camo ground blinds, scent elimination, salt, corn, bows that shoot 100 yards, etc. etc. Rifle hunters using 15X binos, rifle stablizing devices, range finders, rifles and turrets that allow accurate shots to 800+ yards, etc. etc. All of these factors are effecting the buck populations throughout the state and something needs to be done about it.

 

Unfortunately the G&F is extremely slow in making changes unless they have an agenda for it (like they did for 'opportunity'). They can't even get an online application process in place for pete sake. There are many things that could be considered such as making one of the hunts a muzzleloader hunt, putting in an antler point restriction (they did this in PA and the avg age of the harvested bucks went up from 1.5 yrs to 3.5 yrs in 5 - 6 years), mandatory reporting, reducing the number of tags, addressing the predator situation, increasing/improving year round water supplies, addressing land access issues, etc. etc. It could be just me but it does not seem these are the things the G&F want to talk about or expend their limited resources on.

 

 

very well said..

 

Str8shot,

 

This is not a pity fest, just the facts and observations that are mentioned. I myself have seen the decline in deer/bucks, in some units more than others, but the trend is happening. I will not shoot deer that score under 100", I dont care what tag I have, and it does not make me any better or superior to those that shoot smaller deer. There were days when those bucks got me very excited, and I simply like to challenge myself. To each their own. I simply would like to see those deer mature and grow up. I think that good hunters have made some intersting observations.. the buck to doe ratios that they have observed are not very good, and while they maybe and probably are off slightly, the message is that there are issues happening with the deer herds that should be addressed immediately by our game department. I believe it is a multitude of issues, and while there is more than one correct answer, there are some underlying prinicpals that begin with factual information not pie in the sky pulled out the behind stuff, that would help the dept understand what is happening..

 

 

Sorry guys about the wambulance comment I often forget how sarcastic comments can go over heads .... Still I understand what your saying and While I can not speak specific to your unit but to the one next to it I can tell you that we seen a very healthy number of deer this year .... With good buck to doe ratios and during the time of the scouts and hunt it would be more immature deer but Also scouted some real toads and good bachelor herds as well and more than a handful .... And the fawning was impressive as well with majority of what we seen as twins so the bucks did their job fine in early 09 as I am sure they will in early 10 ..... My issue comes from the Trophy hunters that seem to blame everything in the book but the practice of taking only the most mature bucks .... Culling many of the small more immature deer is as important to the overall Size and health of the herd as well as the quality of your trophies as Taking out year round predators like lions ...... It is far more complex then to many tags /hunts/hunters but that is all to often the easy excuse to not seeing the numbers of bucks you may have seen a year or two prior .... SO when i hear a hunter who sets his sights on the size bucks that exclude all but about 10 percent or less of the bucks on the hill and blame everything in the book for not having an enjoyable hunt I feel no empathy for him or her ...... Maybe sticking to all the does at that time was just the wrong strategy for you guys..... We still have 8 to 15 days before the Rut really kicks in anyways so that gives you time to grab your bows and go turn your frowns upside down

[Str8Shot]

Someone call the Wambulance ...... It is called hunting for a reason and yet it seems so many want to blame G&F for their lack of success .... to many tags , to many hunts, the wrong dates for hunts .... IMO hunters need to step up and look at their own delusional desires for only the biggest .... If your hunting for a trophy that makes up less than 10 or 15 percent of the population in the herd than you are on a 10 or 15 percent hunt... it does not matter coues, muley , elk it is all the same....I want to know when 100" plus coues made up more than maybe 10 percent of deer seen in the field.... to hear someone say they passed on a 100" 2x2 and then complain about less opportunity or quality is absurd ... Do that many of you here think it makes you less of a man or woman to drop a smaller deer, or maybe you think dropping a toad is the only way to make you seem like a good hunter? ...... 3 weeks during almost the best time of the year vs. 1 when it is hot and miserable and to still hear hunters crying... please .... Here is an idea for you Get rid of the late Nov. hunt and triple the number of tags for Dec. making 3 week long hunts

 

 

P.S. just watch when several more toads come out of the unit before the end of January with an arrow stuck in them will you still be crying all the big ones are gone ......

 

 

don't know where you went to school? someone call the 1st grade math teacher. you said it, not me. when you see 400 deer and 1 if any 100" bucks that is .025% of the population, not 10-15%. according to your math, 40-60 100" buck should have been seen. something is wrong???? maybe this is the same math our very own G & F is using to manage. it's sad.....

 

let's say that there should be a buck to doe ratio of 3/10. with 400 deer there should have been 93 bucks. based of your info at minimum 10% should bee 100 class bucks. once again 9 bucks should have made that mark. not even close.....

 

 

SDR I was talking in general and not specific to any numbers I did make a grammer error in saying deer when I meant Bucks my bad ... but I was never using their numbers in figuring anything and if you read I stated less than 10 - 15 % which is also a more general statement I will go back and fix the wording thnx ... and the less than 10 - 15 percent number was one I had read I know it can be much lower than that but I doubt any higher ....

[Red Rabbit]

G&F guidelines for the alternative whitetail units call for a buck:doe ratio of 25:100 to 35:100. So for 400 deer spotted about 23% (30:100 ratio) on average should be bucks, or about 92 bucks in the 400 deer.

 

If you look at the survey data in the HuntAZ book, the sampling is rather small, with just over 100 adult deer being surveyed in each unit. Seems G&F might incorporate some hunters to record data to give a bigger sample size. In unit 8, survey data has recently changed since surveys have recently included airborne data as opposed to just groundwork.

[scoutm]

G&F guidelines for the alternative whitetail units call for a buck:doe ratio of 25:100 to 35:100. So for 400 deer spotted about 23% (30:100 ratio) on average should be bucks, or about 92 bucks in the 400 deer.

 

 

I would guess that if you make the assumption that 50% of the fawns are bucks the ratio you stated is pretty close to what we saw. We just weren't able to locate the bucks of the higher age class. I'm certain they were there they just weren't out during glassing light. I think the continued pressure of the restructured hunts and then the bad lunar phase of the last week had them down.

[azbownunter22]

Larry, I'm sorry to hear about your hunt. I'm especially sorry to hear about the LOOOOOOOSER who is missing three fingers and carries around tools to mess with other hunters. Keep the faith my friend. I congratulate you on your efforts.