ruffcountry Report post Posted December 7, 2009 Link to interesting wolf story from the ap http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34303223/ns/us_news-environment Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeybari Report post Posted December 7, 2009 Wow looks like everyone time the GOV get involved. Something bad happens to hard working people For the people by the people right bulllllllllllllll sssssssshhhhhhhhhhh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sam Report post Posted December 7, 2009 This is a tough subject - it has always caused heated debates. This artlicle is a bit bias and one sided. The cattle industry has always had a big influence on management decisions within AZ. Sometimes too much. The ranchers deserve the opportunity to continue with their lively hood; however, a big portion of their grazing lands are leased from the government - state trust land and National forest lands. We can't manage them just for one group. This is just one more conflict that ranchers have to deal with - just like the drought and lower beef prices. It is unfortunate that cows are killed by wolves, but there are funds set aside to reimburse ranchers. However, AZ's deer and elk populations are also affected by the reintroduction of the Mexican Grey Wolf. Just look at the deer population in Unit 27 - this unit has wolves roaming through it and killing deer. Maybe we should we have left things up to Mother Nature and accepted things for what they are - no more wolves in AZ?? After all, mom's know best........... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
luvdemcoues Report post Posted December 7, 2009 +1 on Unit 27. I hunted there all my life. I don't hunt there any more because of the wolf issue. One of my last hunting trips up there we were sitting a meadow/water hole a good 4 point had been using... right at dusk a wolf came out into the meadow. I wanted to shoot the stupid thing. Don't worry... I didn't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest borderboy Report post Posted December 7, 2009 Hmm. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cmc Report post Posted December 7, 2009 Two things jump out at me.... The pack includes four pups and two adults, both of which are missing their front left paws. Where are all those folks that were up in arms about trapping the jaguar? Missing paws is common as the wolves are trapped quite often. Many more times than you ever get to hear about. Yet that didn't make front page news. He gave the example of a third-generation ranch that harvested about 200 calves annually before going out of business earlier this year. The operation was capable of bringing in more than $1 million in tax and other revenues to the county. Double whammy on the state or local coffers... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.270 Report post Posted December 7, 2009 i've spent a lot of time studying this situation. it ain't just ranchers gettin' screwed. if you take the numbers provided by the usfw about where they want the wolf numbers to be, there won't be anymore hunting allowed because all deer and elk are going to be is wolf food. there aren't enough elk and deer in any of the units to support the proposed wolf population, much less allow hunting too. i know that because i can add. used the numbers right ouf the usfw stuff. it was all in the paper at one time too. and there is money to compensate for wildlife loss, but they never get any of it. unless you have a video of a wolf killing a cow, you won't get compensated. they'll find some reason that it wasn't a wolf. and if they kill a horse, which are generally much more valuable than cattle, you don't get anything. because they're considered pets. same with a working dog. my cousin figures he's lost several hundred head to wolves. he's been compensated for a dozen or so. you wouldn't believe some of the crap the wolf people have pulled. folks can bash ranchers all they want for now. they're just first on the list to be ran off the land. me and you are next. wolf recovery has nothing to do with it. it is about power and control. just one more tool to pry folks off the land. everyone too. the birdwatchers, hikers and treehuggers will be last, but they will be eliminated from using the land also, if this is allowed to run it's entire course. the people who administer this program are liars of the worst order and if you believe anything they say you're a fool. the usfw manufacters whatever data they need to support their agenda. and their agenda is to push you and me off the land and eliminate hunting, fishing, farming, ranching, logging, mining, and eventually even treehugging. look the wolf recovery up north. it succeeded. they got the population to about twice what they said their target was. better results than they ever hoped for. (the reason they did is because they used real live wild wolves and not pen raised part dog curs) and what did they do? sue and sue and sue to keep control of the program, and the land, and tried to not let the states manage it, as was supposedly the original intent. like global warming, health care and cap and tax and any other thing the commies than think of, it's about control. of me and you. and you best pay attention to it. Lark. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JMP Report post Posted December 7, 2009 Hope this doesn't come to Arizona http://www.saveelk.com/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
25-06 Report post Posted December 8, 2009 WOW, 50 wolves in Az causing this much chaos? What about the thousands and thousands of coyotes? I bet every time a pack of coyotes kill a calf, they just chalk another one up to the wolves. Oh and what about mountain lions? I guess i just dont see how it can be possible that 50 wolves are going to shut down ranching all buy themselves. Or even 100 wolves. Why are people so worried about a few wolves? I would rather see every dang coyote killed in Az, I hate those little critters. On that hand I do agree with the above post about a tool to take us off the land. I have thought that for a while when I heard about bringing the wolves back and protecting them so much. Just a way for environmentalists to control the land from the public. You should google 4 drag ranch. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.270 Report post Posted December 8, 2009 there's a lot more to it than just 50 wolves. when you have a pack of wolves in your area, you can't do anything about it and you can't do much about other predators either. can't use hounds to catch a lion or bear because the wolves hear them and end up in the hound pack, killing your dogs. you can't use dogs to work cattle because of the same problem. and when the wolves in your area, you have to be there constantly to protect your cattle and try to move them to where they ain't. gov't trappers can't do anything because of the probability of catching a wolf. and wolves don't just kill something and eat on it until it's gone. tney'll kill everything they can when they can. may never consume any of it. i think they said they wanted 100 wolves. the way wolves hunt, that can add up 5,000 to 10,000 animals per year, conservatively. in a fairly small area. guess what's gonna happen to deer and elk tags in wolf country? they are gonna go away so the wolves can eat. i don't know what the azgfd's official opinion of the elk herd in places like the rim around uppper eagle and the blue is, but i know that folks that are in that country a lot don't see many elk there anymore. right now, you can't hardly find a deer, elk or bison in yellowstone. their numbers are down around 85-90% from pre-wolf introduction numbers. it's hard to go to yellowstone and see any kind of wildlife now. some biologists are concerned as to what kind of effect it's going to have on other predators there now, like grizzlies, black bears and coyotes, because of the lack of game. they are omnivorous, but still need protein in their diet. this is all in addition to the money this program costs. so far it's over $1 million per wolf. how much wildlife management could be done in Az and new mex for that kinda money? no matter how ya slice it, this mexican wolf program is not good for Az or new mexico. not just ranchers are getting screwed. it will get us all before it's over if we let it keep going. Lark. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cjw2222 Report post Posted December 8, 2009 I have also looked into this fairly thoroughly, although not as much as Lark I am sure, and the wolves in AZ scare the piss outta me. On an AES fence removal project this summer I saw my first AZ wolf and while it was incredible, it left a pit in my stomach. Lions and coyotes hunt an "area" of land from which they roam for any food they can find. Wolves, however, hunt a "herd" not an area. It is their nature to follow herds until they have decimated it at which time they find another heard and follow it until it goes extinct. The problem is instead of taking one or two animals here and there, they take out multiple generations of the same gene pool leaving it completely nonexistent. For a state that prides itself on trophy quality animals, this is particularly alarming. I am all for restoring AZ to the land it once was, but the sacrifice our survived animals, ranchers, hunters, and taxpayers pay is no where near the gain of having free ranging wolves imo. Disclaimer: I am sure some do not believe this hunting strategy to be true but it is what I have heard and read and what I personally believe... .$02 Side Note: What GAIN comes out of having wolves in AZ save the whole restoration of indigenous animals thing?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
25-06 Report post Posted December 8, 2009 Just saying... In Michigan, Wisconson, Canada etc. where there are wolves, alot of people abide by the " 3 S " rule... Shoot, Shovel, Shutup... Cant do that around here amigo, they would treat a missin wolf like a homicide case. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
russd Report post Posted December 8, 2009 .270 is right on this wolf subject. we are going to lose alot of our hunting areas due to these guys. don't be fooled that they want to return the wolves for natures sake. it is a scam and it will be on us, the hunters. they are also talking of bringing back the lost az grizzly. these people who run the wolf program also want all ranchers out of business. i remember way back, no moo in 92... sounds stupid but they are winning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ruffcountry Report post Posted December 8, 2009 Just saying... In Michigan, Wisconson, Canada etc. where there are wolves, alot of people abide by the " 3 S " rule... Shoot, Shovel, Shutup... Cant do that around here amigo, they would treat a missin wolf like a homicide case. Heck , just eat the evidence , if anybody comes a lookin offer 'em a hot bowl of stew . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bobbyo Report post Posted December 8, 2009 Gosh darn it. I stayed out of these arguments since I banned myself from the political thread, but the treehugging koolaid drinker in me just has to laugh at the hyper- hysteria and complete unscientific drivel the anti wolf crowd spouts. Blabbering facts about wolves that completely contradict themselves. Ranchers get paid for every livestock lost to the wolves. This is why every dead cow has a killed by a wolf label on them, right! This is why the elk population is decimated in unit 27 and 1. Those pesky wolves probably caused the Elk to be silent during the rut. There is no deer in Michigan any more right? The wolf killed them all. The wolf helped elect Obama and the wolf is causing our economic crisis. Ironically The below pooch was sent to me today.I Don't know if it is a photoshopped deal or the new world record as the e-mail claimed, but be afraid. Be very afraid.His pack is coming for you and they are maaaddddd... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
