Are you ready for the long shot? I am...

[Coues Sniper]

John, I think you would be surprised at the number of people who use field calculators for longrange hunting. I have a very simple yet very accurate program on my iPhone that I use to get proper dope for a shot. As 308 stated this really isn't necessary for shots under 500 yards. But when it starts pushin 700 yards or more I believe it becomes very necessary. It literally takes less than a minute, and at those ranges you generally have the time. It becomes a part of the routine.

 

308, I'm nit-picking here but I thought that tail/head winds had very little affect on bullet flight unless they had a vertical component?

 

No disrespect intended to either of you; I'm certain you could both shoot circles around me . Thank you both for the interesting discussion.

[308Nut]

I am trying to move my personal range from 400 to 600 yards this year. This post has been extremly helpful for me. Thanks to all that have been through the process on different horses and come up with a workable system.

 

I didn't realize bullets had spin drift or how much things changed with elevation and temperature. Thanks for the insight.

 

So a couple of questions if you don't mind?

 

1- 308nut are you shooting a 308 win? If not what caliber are you shooting?

 

 

 

2- How does the Huskamaw scope or others like it claim 1000 yard accuracy when they can't cover the changes encountered one even one hunt much less all the hunts one rifle would encounter?

 

 

 

3- What type of rangefinder do you use?

 

 

Thanks for your time-

 

1: Yes my primary cartridge of choice is the 308 winnie. When I need more range or energy or both I use a 338 Edge. This offers 300 grain bullets with very high BC's and minimal wind drift and exceptional energy at very long range.

 

 

2: They dont. They make you one or two custom dials for a given enviornment. Other wise you just use a standard dial in .25 MOA increments or 0.1 Mil increments and dial to what the calculator tells you to. One day it may be 24.25 MOA and the next day it may be 25.5 MOA at a given yardage.

 

3: Personally, I use the Swarovski LRF. I have used the Leica 1200 as well. Both are top notch.

 

You're welcome.

[308Nut]

308, I'm nit-picking here but I thought that tail/head winds had very little affect on bullet flight unless they had a vertical component?

 

You're spot on. They have very little effect. For all intensive perposes, if you convert the MPH wind value to FPS and add or subtract that value to your muzzle velocity you find how high or low the bullets will be. It really isnt much. According to Sierra bullets, the above statement is not 100% accurate to be 100% technical but is so scary close there is no reason to get into calculus about it.

 

I am just a nit picker. An inch here and inch there really starts to add up over time.

[Coues Sniper]

2: They dont. They make you one or two custom dials for a given enviornment. Other wise you just use a standard dial in .25 MOA increments or 0.1 Mil increments and dial to what the calculator tells you to. One day it may be 24.25 MOA and the next day it may be 25.5 MOA at a given yardage.

 

Mike,

I watched a couple of their shows where they went through how you can make adjustments for altitude and temp differences, but the way they tied it into the turrent was extremely confusing and lacking in much description. There are other factors that they didn't mention also which you have explained above.

I'm not much of a fan of wind holdover anyways (for those that don't know, Huskemaw's scopes have moa gradients for wind adjustments on the reticle). I killed a deer a few years ago at 560 which at that time I used holdover dots for wind and vertical drop. But with the wind/distance I had, niether crosshair was touching the deer when I tipped the trigger. Just didn't seem natural to me. I much prefer using the actual crosshairs if at all possible.

[LazzInc]

first of all, I want to thank all of YOU for allowing me to be part of this conversation ,,,,,

 

things here can sometimes be controversial and when a man’s ego gets involved, well, things can go astray (((Ladies out there, imagine that huh ?!?!?))) ,,,,

 

anyway ,,,,, 308nut is certainly dedicated to what he does and he uses a proven method that works for him ,,,, or at least it has worked well for him so far ,,,,,,

 

this really boils down to two very different ways to approach the long range shot ,,,,,,

 

308nut and many others use relatively slow bullets, with high BCs, and use windage and elevation turrets on the scope to adjust for the shot, based upon many field calculations that are probably best left to the hand held computer devices they are using ,,,,,

 

1 ,,,,,, I don't like slow bullet speed, regardless of how good the BC is etc ,,,,, wind drift at 1,000 yards with my 168gr bullet out of the Warbird is FAR LESS than a 308 win shooting a 220gr bullet, ((((even though the BC of the 220gr is far superior))) because time of flight to the target is so much faster and an overall drop from boreline is only around 165" with the Warbird to 1,000 yards ,,, that the wind has less TIME to impact the bullet coming out of the Warbird ,,,, MORE than making up for the differences in bullet BC ,,,,

 

2 ,,,,,,,, realize that with both calibers shooting the same bullet ,,, the Lazz Warbird will still have the retained velocity at 400 yards, that the 308 win has at the MUZZLE ,,,,,,, and that turns into killing power at long range ,,, and YOU NEED THAT to be successful in the field ,,,,

 

3 ,,,,, I don't like scopes that use windage and elevation adjustment turrets to prepare for the long ranger shot ,,,,, the biggest reason for this is that I have NEVER seen a scope that had adjustments like that, that would return to, or adjust to these exact calculated positions, every time, back and forth without fail ,,,, especially when the scope is mounted on a high powered magnum rifle ,,,,,,

 

4 ,,,,, I like to sight in and actually practice at long range ,,,,, with a scope that once adjusted, never gets moved ,,,, so that my 3 mil-dot down is 710 yards ,,,, my second mil-dot down is 550 yards ,,, and my first mil dot down is 400 yards ,,, and with the center cross hair, at 100 yards, I can shoot the eye out of a prairie dog at such close range ,,,,, with a FRONT FOCAL PLANE MOUNTED mil dot reticle, so that my mil-dots are the same spacing regardless of the power setting the scope is adjusted to ,,,,,

 

5 ,,,,, I like to make sure that my load and rifle will shoot 5" 3 shot groups at 710 yards ,,, that it will shoot 3 1/2" groups at 550 yards ,,, and 2" groups at 400 yards ,,,,,, that is more important than all the performance calculators in the world ,,,,,

 

THEN ,,,, as I said in my previous post on this thread ,,,, when it is time for the shot and I go to WAR ,,,, I make my mental adjustments for WIND, ANGLE and then RANGE in that order ,,,, hold the mil-dot reticle to those adjustments, get real steady and squeeze the trigger ,,,,

 

do I shoot at our valuable game animals much beyond 710 yards ?? ,,, NOPE ,,, WHY ??? ,,,, because I do not PRACTICE much at ranges beyond 710 yards ,,,, that simple ,,,,,,, I am old and fat now and I cannot see much farther than that !! ,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

I will be hunting into Mexico till Friday of this next week ,,,, so I will be back on line after that time ,,,,,, WISH ME LUCK ! ,,,,,,

[CouesWhitetail]

Good Luck in Mexico John! and thanks for your summary.

 

Amanda

 

[308Nut]

John,

 

I wish to say happy hunting and wish you much success. Please let us know how you do when you return.

 

 

On another topic. Your last post was very insightfull. Thank you for sharing your personal preferences. When it comes to velocity choices, ballistic coeffiecients choices, drop compensation methods, the use or lack of use of calculators etc...is all a matter of personal preference. I dont mind you or anybody sharing their techniques or preferences. I simply ask that you dont insult my preferences or try and show your preferences as superior to mine or others and I will do the same for you. Make a debate out of physics? Yes. Make a debate about preferences? No.

 

The debate earlier was about math and physics period not personal preference. Lets try and keep physics debates and personal preferences sperate. The guys we are hoping to help will decide which components and tools will work the best for them.

 

Thank you.

 

Back on the topic of physics and math, when you come back and you have some time maybe we can engage in another 'physics' debate about ballistic coefficients and their relationship to bullet drop and wind drift and the differences between high BC's at medium velocities and medium BC's at high velocities where I will show you how one of my 308 loads has less wind drift and more energy at a full 1000 yards than the 308 Warbird running the 168 Sierra. Yes, you read right. LESS wind drift AND MORE energy out of my meezely 308 at 1K. Looking forward to your return!

Agian, I wish you much success in Mexico!

 

Michael

[Str8Shot]

OUCH!!! No really, ouch!

 

Some guys like to hunt. Others like to shoot. I am weak on stalking abilities and strong in shooting abilities. Seems like a fair trade to me. Guys like Randy Ulmer and Chuck Adams are stalking machines not to mention all the countless other hunters who do it for themselves and not for recognition. They too use as many precision tools as are available to them to aid them in their quest for the perfect stalk and shot. Because they are so skilled in their practice, and use the available tools to their advantage, does that mean they are better than a person who applies the same principals for shooting? Does the game have any more of a chance with them than against me or my shooting abilities and tools? Personally I think the game has a better chance at survival against me than some of you other phenominl 'hunters' who are skilled in the 'getting close' method.

 

You guys are hunters, I am a shooter. To each with his own gifts and his own abilities. Hunters are proud of the stalk, I am pround of the shot.

 

M

 

 

308 .....

 

Was not trying to induce Pain, just inject a little bit of humor(laser guided smart bullets) Now to answer your questions... I understand using many new precision tools such as high powered magnums,good optics on gun and in hand, range finders are good things... It just seems these day's that a good percent of people especially newer hunters feel that spending the most and buying the best makes them a better hunter as soon as they leave the gun shop .... I think you said it best about being a hunter and shooter (and trust me I have read enough of your post to know you are a hunter not just a shooter) unfortunately today's technology is creating more shooters than hunters and trust me a small percentage have the skills or knowledge you and many others here possess... It is this, were I find my issues because the experience of hunting is far more than just shooting, and the many lessons and skills as well as ethics you learn over years of success and failure in the field that make hunters better as they grow are often hard learned by those starting at the most advanced and technical aspect of the sport ..... THE BEST TECHNOLOGY IN GUNS,SCOPES,OPTICS ECT... WILL NOT MAKE A PERSON A GOOD HUNTER, BUT THEY WILL MAKE A GOOD HUNTER BETTER .... So I do believe in using our advances but still think every person hunting should start the sport with an iron sight 30/30 and work up from there....

 

 

Now do I think game has a better chance of survival from a long range shooter .... ummmm .... NO WAY!!! at least not good ones like you (now those guys who fire off dozens of shots cutting up a hillside not knowing what they are hitting ... maybe ... maybe not) SO many things can go wrong during any stalk, especially if you are looking at getting to that 200 or 100 yards or less mark ..... Most big game reacts to conditions within 1/4 mile of where they are and at 800 yards you are well beyond that, swirling wind, bedded game between your destination all factors in sending the target away happy and healthy... And even the the Ulmer's and Adam's of the world will tell you of the countless failed stalks for every successful one ....

 

 

There is also one other issue I have when it comes to long range shots and it comes from personal experience and That is what Shooters do not see between the scope and their target ....when you have been in an area since day break, When you have worked slowly and methodically for 45 mins. and get in a position where you are getting prepared for a shot and all the sudden hear the sound of a bullet right over head ripping by... seeing dust fly 3 feet from one of the deer , then another shot ....miss, and a third a miss that busts them off running... only to slowly crawl up and look back behind you in your Bino's at a spot on the higher ridge 500 + yards from you with a guy shooting from a claw or some kind of tripod mounted vise who was not there when you started your move to get a better shot and had no clue you were even in the area ..... It makes a guy want lay down prone right there and reach out and touch someone and If I had your data and knew 100 % I could take his trigger finger only at that range I may have been tempted at taking A long Shot....

 

When there are 600+ hunters in a unit and you are hunting in areas you see any kind of traffic on the points of entry or in the field around you when you start over the course of the day there is always the possibility when you spot game that someone else may have also and can be between you and your target on a stalk and though it can and probably does happen with hunters at much closer ranges usually those pushing in for closer shots will be more likely to see the other hunter/hunters in the area than that guy focused on the long shot ....

 

[roninflag]

i know there are different methods to do well with long shots. one thing that has helped me is shooting in f-class matches. if you go to desertsharpshooters.com there is a schedule. you get to shoot more than one round per year.

[Stallone A.]

Nice write up. Glad you posted the pictures, even the ones you didn't shoot well. Its all about practice...... I still try to shoot mine at 60yrds at most (During bow season),...

[dieselroe]

I think going past 500 would be cool, but I guess I know that I can shoot something at 500 and within, so why risk it. It also sucks because the further you shoot the further you hike. LOL

 

Creeping in to 500 is fun for me, leaves a little bit of stalking for me to do.

[Guest Lobo]

Send enough bullets downrange and you'll hit it - eventually. Hope the wind is just as you like it when you shoot at the deer.

[Good]

All these wiz-bang tools that are available to the hunter today are there for use to help minimize the effects of nature on the bullet helping us to make better and more ethical shots.

 

With the ballistic calculator, laser rangefinder, Kestrel or other weatherstation, and just good sense we can make much better shots than ever before. I have tremendously enjoyed the math lesson by Michael, and hearing about how others "do it".

 

The one thing that has not really come up as much as I thought it would is the BC of the bullet. The way I see it, if you use a program, and enter all the info into it, it will give you exact drops. The trick is guessing the wind, even when using a Kestrel or similar unit. The ballistic coefficiency of the bullet can help minimize the errors we make judging wind. I use JBM Ballistics Trajectory calculator when at the computer, and it works well if I have phone service on the Blackberry also. Here are a couple thoughts on the BC of modern bullets.

 

Using the OP ammunition of the 165 fusion, the company's website claims 18.1" drift at 500yds fired from a muzzle velocity of 3100fps for this cartridge found here:

 

http://www.fusionammo.com/ballistics/rifle.aspx?id=664

 

Compare that to shooting a simple 308 Win with 208g Hornady at 2600fps and the same wind speed nets 15.6" windage, according to the JBM program. The less drift equals more forgiving when errors are made in judging the wind. The higher bc bullet is affected less by the wind than the low bc bullet. Unfortunately I only have trigger pulling experience with the 300wsm and not chrono data, but the drift would be even less from that or even the Lazz Warbird when shooting the heavies than the slow 308 Win due to higher velocity.

 

Real world experience:

 

I recently picked up a $199 Savage 7mm Rem Mag combo that has a cheap simmons scope on it. The weather forecast was favorable so I planned to go to the range and test it out with some factory ammo- the cheap Winchester $17/box stuff.

 

A friend spotted for me as I shot 12 or so of these rounds over my Chrony and got an ES of 140fps! Horrible, but I just wanted the brass anyway.

 

Well, after getting close to a 100yd zero, I moved out to the 500yd gong. JBM on the Blackberry said 42" drop and I think the gong is 24". I dialed back the power on the scope until I could fit approximately 2 gongs height wise between the reticle's post and crosshair (wouldn't be necessary with a FFP...). I let her rip and shot just an inch or two high and left of center- slight left to right wind at 90*, but estimated it faster than what it was.

 

Then stepped out to 750yds. I figured then that bottom post to top post is about 8 feet and JBM said 120"+/- which is around 10 feet. I added two feet to the post and squeezed off a round. Gut shot... the elevation was perfect, but the wind had picked up just enough to throw the bullet just to the right of the 18" target. There isn't any streamers at the local range to judge wind and my target was at 100, and I didn't think to look at my streamers way back at 100yds when I was focused way downrange (my bad). I only had one bullet left and I hit the steel after making a quick adjustment in wind hold.

 

Would I shoot that round at 750yds? Not a chance. It is not consistent enough for that, but also, the earlier 308 shooting 208g AMAX has a wind drift of 37.7" with 10mph crosswind. That 7mm bullet had 41" +/- at that range using an estimated BC after searching the Intranetz. 2.5-3" isn't that much, but if it's the difference between wounding an animal and placing that bullet in the boiler room of that animal I want the bullet that is going to minimize my mistakes the most.

 

Just for fun, proper handloads with a high bc bullet in 7mm Rem Mag is even better...

 

2900fps

180g Berger

drift at 750 yds- 30.6" Give myself a bunch of practice and I'd shoot this if the conditions were right.

 

The higher the bc of the bullet, the better the chances are your shot will be on target in any given condition.

 

In case you're wondering,

 

300g Berger in .338 caliber

2700fps (although Michael E is destroying this number with his Edge I would figure)

26.4" drift.

 

All speeds are just for reference, and are realistically achieveable.

[Good]

Oh yeah, and all those numbers were ran for sea level with standard atmosphere and pressure for that elevation. If we then assume that's what Federal did when posting the numbers for the OP's ammo, the BC of the 165g bullet runs around .455. I think this is close as their drop is 36.5" at 500 and JBM says 36.4" with 200yd zero.

 

For comparison, his round has 45.3" drift, all else being the same, at 750yds. The high BC 338 bullet has almost half the wind drift at that range... Extended distances is where the high BC bullets shine.

[308Nut]

That is great info Good. I am in 100% agreement with you. Just to reinforce, high BC bullets are less affected by all of the elements including ballistic inconsistencies such as higher extreme velocity spreads. Granted, there is no substitute for low ES, a high BC bullet can help. Like you said, the big issue is windage. Nobody should care anymore about flat trajectories. That is why we have laser rangefinders. Whether you adjust 40 clicks or 50 clicks it doesnt really much matter. Flat trajectory and minimal wind drift rarely go hand in hand. I will use the 308/208 versus the 308 Warbird. Before I get into that, let me say that equal bullet for equal bullet and max velocity potential for each, the 308 Warbird will always win hand down. That said, if you take the factory loaded 308 Warbird ammo with the 168SMKs (3500 FPS) and run it against the 308/208 combo (2600 FPS) you will find the Warbird's trajectory looks like a lazer line and the 308's trajectory looks like a rainbow. Now to reinforce the importance of BC's as Good has pointed out, let's compare the energy and windage down range. the 308/208 combo retains 975 pounds of energy at 1K and 71" of drift with a 298" drop. The Warbird retains 971 pounds and 73" of drift with 191" of drop. Is there enough difference here to worry about? No. For all practical purposes (ballistically that is) they are equal at 1K. This is just to illustrate how valuable a high BC is when it comes to wind and energy retention. The fact that two different cartridges of the same bore diameter can be fired 900 FPS apart and they can both be equal at 1K. Flat trajectories dont always mean less drift. When looking at the price of reloading that Warbird and the super short throat life in the barrel, I can live with a rainbow trajectory. Which brings me to the 338's running the 300 Berger. A legitimate BC of over .800 offers you over 2000 pounds of energy and LESS than 50" of drift in a full 10 MPH cross wind. Go up to 5000' for a coues hunt and they become almost 2400 pounds and 39" of drift. 39" in a 10 MPH wind is stupidly minimal. Take that fact coupled with the fact that I choose not to shoot at game when the wind is blowing that fast. Most of the time, shots are taken in 3-7 MPH and they are ussually at an angle other than 90 degrees. So let's look at the middle of the road. 5 MPH with a 4:30 wind. The value becomes 14". Now let's say that 1/2 way to the target a lull in the wind or a gust happened. You may have a 2-3" +/- variance. This is still within an acceptable kill zone. At 14", you would'nt even have to hold off the animal. Now it starts to look do-able and ethical hugh?

 

Currently I have some 30 cal 177 grain bullets on order from a company called GS custom bullets. IF they work as advertised, they would be the ultimate 308 winnie bullet. Expansion at 1500'/sec and a .6+ BC. The numbers do seem a bit too good to be true but I will always try almost anything once. If they are full of crap then it was money well spent. If they are great, then it is even better money spent. Kind of like when you loan somebody 20 bucks and you never hear from them again, then it was worth it!