Are you ready for the long shot? I am...

[LazzInc]

308nut ,,,,

 

now com'on, let's get real here ,,,,,

 

first of all, you are never going to measure the actual angle of the shot in the field without a bit of error ,,,,

 

second ,,, you don't need a computer to figure the horizontal distance to the target ,,,,,

 

matters not the actual distance ,,, only the horizontal distance ,,,, and at 700 yards or less, approximate calculations will get you close enough for a killing shot ,,,, but I will admit that the faster the caliber and the flatter the trajectory, the less error will occur ,,,

 

I don't know of anyone who really has the time or the patience to be playing with a hand held computer in the field when setting up for the shot on the buck of a lifetime ,,,,

[308Nut]

308nut ,,,,

 

now com'on, let's get real here ,,,,,

 

first of all, you are never going to measure the actual angle of the shot in the field without a bit of error ,,,,

 

second ,,, you don't need a computer to figure the horizontal distance to the target ,,,,,

 

matters not the actual distance ,,, only the horizontal distance ,,,, and at 700 yards or less, approximate calculations will get you close enough for a killing shot ,,,, but I will admit that the faster the caliber and the flatter the trajectory, the less error will occur ,,,

 

I don't know of anyone who really has the time or the patience to be playing with a hand held computer in the field when setting up for the shot on the buck of a lifetime ,,,,

 

John, I have to say that it has been enjoyable to have someone here to "talk" ballistics with. A lot of guys here are developing the skills and knowledge for longrange hunting due to the nature of the coues deer being small and the shots long. Most here dont talk about longrange ballistics but LR shooting and exterior ballistics are hobbies of mine and love to chat about them. Please know that my intent here is not to argue or bicker. Talking and sharing is the only way either of us and others here learn.

 

 

I agree with you that there will always be a bit of error. The idea is to minimize it. I realize you dont need a computer to calculate the horozontal component. My point is that there is more to it than just the horizontal component. If you compare this to a ballistic calculator you would see what I am getting at. Coues deer are VERY small targets. The hunters here need more accuracy than just the horizontal component. This is why laser range finders that utilize angle compensation for bows and rifles have different settings for different velocity ranges. The Sierra manual (4th addition) explains in detail how to figure the angle cuts. It shows that it isnt as simple as finding the flat line yardage.

 

Below are some charts generated by JBM online ballistics. JBM is the most trusted online ballistic calculator. Bryan Litz of Berger bullets endorses JBM. One is 0 degrees and one is 45 degrees.

 

 

 

It is funny that you mentioned not knowing anyone who has the time or patience to be playing with a hand held in the feild when setting up for the shot on the buck of a lifetime. Now you do. Not 3 weeks ago I used a hand held to set up on my buck of a lifetime. A 109"+ coues buck. Not one week ago I set my cousin up on a 100" buck using the hand held. Only one needed an angle correction. Trust me it works.

 

I am Michael by the way. It is a pleasure to meet you.

 

M

[LazzInc]

308nut ,,,,

 

OK ,, you sound like a for-real kind of guy ,,,,,,

 

you must be a much better hunter than I am, for I could never find the time to key everything into a computer before the shot ,,,,,

 

sounds like you are actually pretty good at it though ,, so let me ask you ,,,,,,

 

“”In your own words”” WHY does it matter what your bullet velocity is when computing angle/hold multiplier adjustments at the longer ranges? ,,,,,

 

,,,, I am much older and fatter now than I used to be, ,,, but I thought all that mattered was horizontal distance ? ,,,, John@Lazzeroni.com ,,,,,,,,

[Red Rabbit]

Without the program, I used the "improved" method by multiplying the cosine of the angle to the drop for 800 yards. Doing so, 105" x cos 45 = 74.2" That 74" is still 6.6" off. But still a lot better than using just the 38.5" drop for the horizontal distance.

[308Nut]

308nut ,,,,

 

OK ,, you sound like a for-real kind of guy ,,,,,,

 

you must be a much better hunter than I am, for I could never find the time to key everything into a computer before the shot ,,,,,

 

sounds like you are actually pretty good at it though ,, so let me ask you ,,,,,,

 

“”In your own words”” WHY does it matter what your bullet velocity is when computing angle/hold multiplier adjustments at the longer ranges? ,,,,,

 

,,,, I am much older and fatter now than I used to be, ,,, but I thought all that mattered was horizontal distance ? ,,,, John@Lazzeroni.com ,,,,,,,,

 

 

John,

 

In my own words, the reason it matters is that we dont live in a vacume. If gravity were the only component to a trajectory arc it would be a pure parabolic arc. With this parabolic arc the flat line distance would be accurate. It is due to air density that we dont have a pure parabolic arc. With air density, it greatly affects the trajectory curve. the slower or faster the bullet and/or the higher or lower the BC and/or the higher or lower the air density the greater the differences in a trajectory curve you will see. In a vacume with only gravity it is always a perfect curve. One load may have a wider curve but none the less, the maximum height of all the trajectory curves will always be 1/2 way through curve where as in our enviornemnt the max height is always closer to the target due to air density. This is why it is proper to use the bullet drop when figured from a level barrel instead of the bottom 1/2 of the tri-angle.

 

The math involved includes knowing the true drop AND the corrected drop from the scope's zero. The true drop has to be multiplied by the cosine value of the angle as we know it. Which is COS*angle*PI/180. For 45 degrees this equates to just over .7. For a 45 degree shot this is (true drop * 0.7) - (true drop) - (corrected drop). All of this crap because of air density.

 

In other words, the trajectory is altered by the angle of fire because gravity only affects the bullet based on the bottom of the tri-angle (AKA flat line distance) but when you add other variables such as air density, it add a whole new set of issues to the equasion.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

In regards to the hand held computer, it only takes an extra minute to use. When I arrive in the field in the morning, I enter the current barometric pressure and save the temprature for just before the shot. What this affords a shooter is to enter an exact yardage and get perfect results for the current conditons. Drop charts only work to a point. For your calibers that point is further than my 308. For coues size targets, my limit is 500 yards without adjusting for changes in air density. My bullet drops from my zero to 500 yards only change slightly when substantial atmosheric changes happen. After that threshold, the drops change too much for an ethical shot. Also charts are set in 25, 50 or 100 yard increments. With the hand held you enter 663 and you get a PRECISE drop figure and MOA or Mil value for correction. Also, you dont have to guess a wind value when the chart says 10 MPH. If it is 4 MPH from 2:00, you enter 4 and 2:00 and it gives you a PRECISE windage figure. It also corrects for head and tail winds, spin drift, coriolus and so on. For precision shooting at past the hunter's zero, they are very usefull.

 

Again, I appreciate the lively discussion on exterior ballistics.

 

M

[LazzInc]

yeah but wind is never constant all the way to the target, especially when shooting across deep canyons ,,,,, so you had better be better at "guessing & doping the wind" than measuring and calculating it with a computer,,,,

and I still disagree with you on the angle business ,,,,

 

when my second mil-dot is dead on at 550 yards ,,,,, and my first mil-dot at 400 yards (((I don't like to estimate OR calculate bullet drop in the field, I like to know exactly where my rifle shoots at the various distances ))) ,,,, and I am shooting at a 45 degree angle to the target, and my multiplier is .7 ,,,, and the range finder says 550 ,,,, I will hold for 385, which is to put my 400 yard mil-dot right on the animals heart, then adjust for the wind ,,,,,

 

and that has worked for me, many, many times ,,,,, I call that """ practical application, in the field, of ballistic technology """" ,,,,

[308Nut]

I can respect you for your firm stand.

 

Let's just agree to disagree. Obviously we have both had good success at longer than average ranges angles or no angles. With your super flat rifles and at the distances you refer to, your math is close enough to make clean shots. I too have had what you call practical field verification at longer ranges and not so flat rifles. One such occasion was this fall on a dall ram at 702 yards and a true 45 degree angle. I screwed up the initial measurment and dialed for 38 degrees and missed over his back. When I realized it was 45 and not 38 and re adjusted my scope, the result was a center strike and a rolling ram. Another case in 2002 was my longest kill at 763 yards and 17 degrees. This was one shot and a rolling ram. I guess what I am trying to say is we both practice regularly, apply good judgment and enjoy success.

 

That is where I will leave it.

 

Welcome aboard again.

 

M

[Guest 300ultramag.]

308, ur the real deal dont waste ur time on this guy...

he is a masterdebater... IMO.. and he loves his commas,,,

[az4life]

Some of us have picked up a lot of good info on this thread I'm sure. Sort of like looking into the wizard's bag of tricks.

 

Thanks for the spirited debate.

 

 

[Str8Shot]

Now all that is left to do 308Nut is Attach your precision rifle to an automated tripod mount system with a remote trigger and hook up your computer .... type in your data, hit enter, and BAM!!! dead animal at 800,900, or even a thousand yards sounds like fun hunting to me.... hopefully soon we will be able to have some laser guided smart bullets for our hunting rifles too that would be cool..... We can take all human error out of the equation and show those dumb animals how awesome we really are ...... On a serious note though 308nut cool data and info for those who don't think they can cut at least half or more of the distance off an 800 yard shot .....

 

 

Growing up always herd the term about how hunting was just between the game and the hunter and just like everything it has evolved to be between The Game and the hunter plus his laptop,google and the www and 100 other hunters on his blackberry contact list !!!!! Isn't evolution cool ???

 

I bet the wild Animals We hunt think so

[308Nut]

OUCH!!! No really, ouch!

 

Some guys like to hunt. Others like to shoot. I am weak on stalking abilities and strong in shooting abilities. Seems like a fair trade to me. Guys like Randy Ulmer and Chuck Adams are stalking machines not to mention all the countless other hunters who do it for themselves and not for recognition. They too use as many precision tools as are available to them to aid them in their quest for the perfect stalk and shot. Because they are so skilled in their practice, and use the available tools to their advantage, does that mean they are better than a person who applies the same principals for shooting? Does the game have any more of a chance with them than against me or my shooting abilities and tools? Personally I think the game has a better chance at survival against me than some of you other phenominl 'hunters' who are skilled in the 'getting close' method.

 

You guys are hunters, I am a shooter. To each with his own gifts and his own abilities. Hunters are proud of the stalk, I am pround of the shot.

 

M

[CouesWhitetail]

I have very much enjoyed the debate between you two. Thank you both for making your points in a reasonably civil manner and I really like the real world examples of how the stuff is applied. I think most everyone here can learn from both of you. Thanks to you both!!

 

Amanda

 

[fatfootdoc]

308, ur the real deal dont waste ur time on this guy...

he is a masterdebater... IMO.. and he loves his commas,,,

 

 

 

 

I dont think any time was "wasted" it was a good respectful debate over shooting techinique! Obviously both of them know what they are talking about. I am not about to take a handheld into the field to get ready for my shot, does not work for me, however I think if he wants to do that more power to him. All teh ballistic tables and computers and etc in the world dont make a bit of difference if you dont know your rifle and take the time to shoot it at the range. Oh and I think both guys are master debaters but it sure made for an elightening discussion. Welcome to the forum LAZZ. ag

[308Nut]

It seems like there has been a lot of 'shock' effect in regards to the use of a hand held ballistic calculator. If I have offended anybody I appologize. Since this is a longrange thread I see this as a good opprotunity to express why I like to use them in the field and what the benefits are when using them at longrange for practice and hunting.

 

1st off I will say that if a hunter wants to draw the line at 500 yards, he does NOT need to employ the use of a field ballistic calculator. The reason for that is because up to 500 yards ballistics are fairly forgiving. For example when I sighted in my rifle near my home where it is near sea level and was -5 degrees to 10 degrees above zero, just before I left to come to Arizona for my coues hunt, my 500 yard drop from zero was 33.5". Where I was hunting in AZ it was 5000' and 55 degrees. My 500 yard drop from zero became 29" for a 4.5" difference. This is what I call forgiving because the bullet will not strike much higher than normal even though I feel it is too much for precision shooting. This coupled with the fact that the starting point which is the zero will also be higher. This compounds the problem and causes even higher strikes. To be fair, I not only used the calculator to help me figure out how much higher my zero would be but I also went out and field verified this which is a good idea anyway because of what I call airline bag handling olympics. So after going to the range, readjusting my zero by 1/2 MOA, I set out to the field for the hunt. Now at this point after correcting my zero my 500 yard drop would be a real 29" drop from zero. From this example, you can see how a field calculator is not needed. We can simply print a (verified) computer generated drop table to 500 yards. The temprature and pressure swings will not be enough to really screw anything up. For example, since we have corrected our zero and recalculated our drop table for the enviornment that we are hunting in, our drop is 29" at 500 yards in 55 degree air at 5000' assuming the pressure is standard and not excessively high or low. Now when we get a storm front move through and the air becomes 30 degrees and the pressure falls a bit we are still within 1" at 500 yards. This is why when the range is limited to 500 yards, a field ballistic calculator is NOT needed. You will ALWAYS find me in the field with a range card attached to my stock for quick shots at 500 yards or less and/or when my electronics fail.

 

For the 500-800+ yard shooters, the margin of error during atmospheric changes becomes too great to use a field verified drop chart plain and simple.

 

For sea level and 30 degree air, my drop at 800 yards is 162" on the nose according to my calculator AND real world tests. When the elevation is changed to 5000' and 60 degrees when I am sheep hunting in early August, my 800 yard drop becomes 138" for a 26" difference. The miss would now be measured in FEET! Not inches. A drop chart here is pretty useless for me. Even if I calibrate a chart for 60 degrees and 5000' when the weather changes and I am shooting 800 yards, the drop is NOT going to be consistent. I have a drop chart calibrated for 60 degrees and 5000' using the standard 29.92" Hg for absolute or sea level pressure which means the drop at 800 yards is 138". However, when a storm rolls in and the temp drops to 25 degrees (which does happen even in August) and the rams I have been pursuing have dropped down to 4000' to feed first thing in the morning, the 800 yard drop becomes 147" for a 9" difference. This is enough to send a bullet right across the hair on his back for a miss. Again, because the drop chart in this case was useless.

 

Other factors that make a hand held computer useful for longrange shooting/hunting is when:

 

1: Angles are enountered, you simply enter the angle and you get a MOA or Mil hold for the shot whether it is level or 34 degrees. Without this you have to use a simple calculator to figure the corrected drop and then run more numbers for a MOA or Mil hold. This takes more time than to just use the ballistic calculator.

 

2: Wind/Spin drift. For those who dont know, spin drift is the effects of a bullet rotating at super high RPM. The nose becomes pointed ever so slightly towards the direction of the spin. When this happens a small amount of air pressure against the nose of the bullet pushes it off it's intended line a wee bit. For the average caliber, it is roughly 6-10" at a full 1000 yards. So if there were 10" of wind drift to the right at 1K and 10" of spin drift for a right hand twist the total is 20" of drift. When there is 30" of wind drift to the left and 10" of spin drift to the right it makes for 20" of drift. This is alot of thinking on the fly. When you enter the wind at 3:00 and 4 MPH the calculator takes all of the factors you either dont know about or forget and calculates out for you EXACTALLY where you need to hold. The key here is when you enter accurate data you will get accurate results. For the windage aspect this can be tricky. More on that in another thread at another time. Trust me, the wind isnt as hard to beat as you might think.

 

3: Another factor is temprature/load cartridge sensitivity. Most know that the velocity of their loads are affected by temprature swings. This is combated by firing loads over a chronograph at one temprature and firing a second batch at a higher or lower temprature. Once the differences are determined, a number can be calculated for how many FPS are gained or lost for one degree of difference. For the extreeme end, this can be 2 FPS per degree. On the lower end it could be 0.3 FPS per degree. This depends on what brand AND type of powder you use, load density etc.... When you know the temprature (because you carry a thermometer in your backpack) of your loads, you can compensate for the higher or lower velocities. My pet 308 load changes .57 FPS per degree. In 30 degrees of difference my drop only changes roughly 2" at 800 yards. This seems minimal but when you add up ALL of the factors it could throw you off by 2-3 FEET at 800 yards if you dont know what causes the changes.

 

These are just a few reasons I carry a hand held ballistic calculator on my hunts. This may seem bizzare and way out there or even far fetched. Maybe it is but if a hunter ever desires to shoot and harvest game CLEANLY at ranges most only dream of, the hand held ballistic calculators used along with a pocket weather/wind meter are absolutely vital. Some may call my ethics into question and that is fine. I personally NEVER take a shot unless I know it will be clean. Sometimes the wind just cannot be judged accurately and I have to pass on the shot the same as when a stalker finds the wind is not right he passes on the stalk for more consistent wind or finds another way to make an opprotunity. I would rather lay down and set up on a shot while the game is bedded or feeding casually and wait for everything to be right and touch off a calm, controlled shot with a rock solid rest than blow the stalk and take a running or at the very least a rushed shot most likely off hand. This leads to misses, bad hits and adrenaline charged game which seem to become supernatural even after a good hit.

 

I hope this post isnt out of line or missunderstood. It is just a point of view of someone who likes to shoot much more than he should. I dont mind being called a master debater. With education and experiences debates happen. I am grateful John and I were both able to conduct ourselves in a respectful and civil manner. That says alot about his character and I welcome his view and experiences. This is a big part of how I have learned many things about my carrer, hunting, shooting, marrige, raising children etc.....

 

Regards!

 

M

[tontotom]

I am trying to move my personal range from 400 to 600 yards this year. This post has been extremly helpful for me. Thanks to all that have been through the process on different horses and come up with a workable system.

 

I didn't realize bullets had spin drift or how much things changed with elevation and temperature. Thanks for the insight.

 

So a couple of questions if you don't mind?

 

1- 308nut are you shooting a 308 win? If not what caliber are you shooting?

 

2- How does the Huskamaw scope or others like it claim 1000 yard accuracy when they can't cover the changes encountered one even one hunt much less all the hunts one rifle would encounter?

 

3- What type of rangefinder do you use?

 

Thanks for your time-